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      07-03-2017, 01:45 PM   #463
The Wind Breezes
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I have to be honest...if you think a M2 is laggy, you're probably not driving it right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
At the track you are in different rpm range than you would be on the street and are always keeping the thing percolating. Not valid
This is completely invalid. The car comes with the ability to manually select gears, so use it! At the point one is interested in the immediacy of delivered power, one had better be in the right RPM range and gear--and this applies whether you're in a NA or turbo car!! At least that's how I drive my car, on the street and otherwise. Yes, I really do preemtively downshift as far as necessary on the street, all the time for sweet power delivery. It doesn't necessarily mean I will go WOT in those gears, either, it just depends on the situation and the response I need. You can do this too, it's not difficult and you can immediately go up a few gears to quiet things down when you're done. You won't damage the engine either--the time you will spend at very high RPM is pretty minimal in the scheme of things--so don't worry about that.
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      07-03-2017, 02:01 PM   #464
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Don't have an m2 and drive conservatively on the street only use e46 in anger at the track
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      07-03-2017, 03:13 PM   #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baege View Post
nah its the same turbo lag I experienced on my 1990 talon....only less pronounced
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Originally Posted by baege View Post
it was a manual m2
What rev range and conditions did this occur in?

Coming off deceleration and then on throttle?

Cruising at a steady pace then getting on it?

At low RPM? Under 2K? Under 3K? Under 4?

If you tried it from all angles (high rev, low rev, cruising, off/on throttle high/low rev, etc.) and there's no way around the perception of immediacy issue, which is a prime factor of enjoyment on your list, it's going to bug you. A lot. And keep on bugging you. And you'll be off on another quest for something that floats your boat.

The only things I can think of are Z06, 991.x GT3 (you'll like it in sport mode only), 997.2 or 991.1 GTS. Assuming you want a two seater or kinda two seater that's smallish or at least leans that way (everything is big these days). On the Porsche, even being a manual transmission fan, the PDK is going to meet the "I want it now" requirement better than three pedals IMO. Especially on the GT3--it's that good. I haven't tried the new turbo-fied Cayman or 911 variants to know if they are "laggy", no opinion there.

Last edited by Finnegan; 07-03-2017 at 03:22 PM.
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      07-03-2017, 04:01 PM   #466
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I knew it was a manual in the first paragraph.

The DCT holds on to boost better than the stick.
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      07-03-2017, 04:39 PM   #467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORIGIN M. View Post
The DCT holds on to boost better than the stick.
This is a real big issue especially when drag racing manual turbo cars, the bigger the turbo the bigger the problem. To anyone concerned, this can be SOLVED by getting a WOTbox. You can then hold the gas pedal flat while shifting, and the clutch will cut the ignition for a smooth shift while gas keeps being dumped thru the hot turbo, keeping it spooled. May want to remove the cat before doing this, although I ran one on a catted car for several trackdays and it held up. Just don't use the 2 step feature with a cat, that WILL blow it!!
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      07-03-2017, 07:55 PM   #468
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Views on the B8 RS5 from past/present owners?

Test drove a 2015 RS5 as a possible replacement for my 2016 Cayman S. I actually quite liked it - great sound, crisp shifts, buttery smooth engine. Torquier than I expected (but remember I am coming from a porsche known for limited low end torque).

Curious to hear from owners, former or current, of RS5s. How did/do you like it?
Thinking it might scratch my GT itch.

Last edited by baege; 07-03-2017 at 09:23 PM.
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      07-04-2017, 07:23 AM   #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnegan View Post
What rev range and conditions did this occur in?

Coming off deceleration and then on throttle? YES

Cruising at a steady pace then getting on it? YES

At low RPM? Under 2K? Under 3K? Under 4? YES

If you tried it from all angles (high rev, low rev, cruising, off/on throttle high/low rev, etc.) and there's no way around the perception of immediacy issue, which is a prime factor of enjoyment on your list, it's going to bug you. A lot.
And keep on bugging you. And you'll be off on another quest for something that floats your boat. YUP!



The only things I can think of are Z06, 991.x GT3 (you'll like it in sport mode only), 997.2 or 991.1 GTS. Assuming you want a two seater or kinda two seater that's smallish or at least leans that way (everything is big these days). On the Porsche, even being a manual transmission fan, the PDK is going to meet the "I want it now" requirement better than three pedals IMO. Especially on the GT3--it's that good. I haven't tried the new turbo-fied Cayman or 911 variants to know if they are "laggy", no opinion there.
Yes I think there are some of us out there who really just prefer the NA experience, the immediacy of throttle response, the sound. NA just brings a much clearer sense of connection with the car. Back in 2008 I test drove a 135i and a 128i. While the 135i would blow the doors off the 128i, I was going to buy the 128i because I preferred the NA experience...but then I found a Z4 Coupe with the N52...even better

I think I just answered my own question...thread closed

and as for moving to 991's...I am done with the Porsche experience, it was great while it lasted, but I need a new drug!

Last edited by baege; 07-04-2017 at 07:44 AM.
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      07-04-2017, 11:52 AM   #470
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Its hideous imo....nevermind thought you meant new one.

Previous RS5 looks great with amazing V8. Go for it.
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      07-04-2017, 02:41 PM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baege View Post
I need a new drug!
You need a 2 stroke. All the NA experience you can handle and then some.
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      07-04-2017, 04:50 PM   #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baege View Post
Yes I think there are some of us out there who really just prefer the NA experience, the immediacy of throttle response, the sound. NA just brings a much clearer sense of connection with the car. Back in 2008 I test drove a 135i and a 128i. While the 135i would blow the doors off the 128i, I was going to buy the 128i because I preferred the NA experience...but then I found a Z4 Coupe with the N52...even better

I think I just answered my own question...thread closed

and as for moving to 991's...I am done with the Porsche experience, it was great while it lasted, but I need a new drug!
Well, there you go! No turbo for you!

FWIW I have a Challenger 392 with the 8 speed auto as my DD and trip car. Huge trunk, the transmission is almost instantaneous and intelligent (corners, downhill), the interior is really nice (not cheap, vented/heated seats, nice plastics and leather), on the fly adjustable suspension, the response and torque are addictive (in sport/track mode when not chasing MPG). The sound is amazing--this is the only car I've owned I haven't wanted to do exhaust mods to. Can't see for crap out the rear window or sides, hood seems long/huge, but the backing camera and blind spot monitors address that (and, I'm used to a long hood and crap visibility from the Z4M anyway).

Now I should hate everything about this car given my love smaller lighter two seater NA type cars. Got into one by chance in a cross-country rental situation and lived with one for two weeks. Otherwise I wouldn't ever thought to test drive one. Well, that piqued my interest in trying the V8 variety with a better suspension, brakes, and power (and some luxuries).

I've put a ton of miles on my 392 and enjoyed them all. It's comfortable, fun, loud, and handles predictably and well for a heavy (and large) piece of American iron. You can drive in the thing all day and not get tired.

Rare? Unique? No. Fun, fast, responsive? Yes. It's not replacing the Z4M (street or track) but it's a hoot in its own way.

It might be nuts, but you might want to give a Camaro SS (6.2 L V8), Challenger/Charger 392, or Mustang GT350 (flat plane V8) a test drive. Totally different experience--like I said, I should not like this big American muscle but I do. But they don't have that lag issue and are responsive NA. The Camaro and Mustang handle pretty well too these days.
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      07-04-2017, 05:41 PM   #473
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I like turbo lag. Well, not so much the lag as the rush of power that comes on after. It's intoxicating.
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      07-04-2017, 09:32 PM   #474
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Turbo lag sucks to be honest. Even though the n5x motors are generally good about it there is still a rubber-band like feel between you and the powertrain. I do miss my s65 in terms of engine characterisitcs.
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      07-05-2017, 06:53 AM   #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatsADSM View Post
Turbo lag sucks to be honest. Even though the n5x motors are generally good about it there is still a rubber-band like feel between you and the powertrain. I do miss my s65 in terms of engine characterisitcs.
nicely put...it is that rubber band like lack of connection that puts me off
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      07-05-2017, 06:59 AM   #476
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It might be nuts, but you might want to give a Camaro SS (6.2 L V8), Challenger/Charger 392, or Mustang GT350 (flat plane V8) a test drive. Totally different experience--like I said, I should not like this big American muscle but I do. But they don't have that lag issue and are responsive NA. The Camaro and Mustang handle pretty well too these days. [/quote]

funny enough I went from a 2014 cayman s to a 2015 c7 for something different that had low end torque but the gm programmed laggy throttle response and the size of the car and poor visibility really made me dislike that car so I sold it 3 days later and went back to the cayman...i do want to test drive the gt350 though
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      07-05-2017, 07:13 AM   #477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
You need a 2 stroke. All the NA experience you can handle and then some.
Yes, love my Ducati Diavel for this purpose.
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      07-05-2017, 10:22 AM   #478
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Quote:
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Yes, love my Ducati Diavel for this purpose.
Nice, but not a 2-stroke. Perhaps the other poster meant twin cylinder as 2 strokes are pretty much nonexistent these days.
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      07-05-2017, 10:33 AM   #479
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I think there is often conflation between turbo lag and throttle response lag. Many modern sport/sporty cars have near instant throttle response, with or without turbos. For example, the throttle response in my Turbo S is just as sharp as my 991 GTS was (still feel that my E92M had the most instant throttle response but that's based on feel, I don't have numbers to back that up). But my TTS has turbo lag, meaning when I hit the gas at low rpms, the amount of power is significantly less for a moment before the turbos can produce full boost. That brief moment of power delivery variation can make it seem like nothing is happening when you first hit the gas but the throttle response is definitely still there.

Last edited by Rambler; 07-05-2017 at 10:38 AM.
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      07-05-2017, 09:03 PM   #480
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Honestly the GT350 sounds like your ride, needs to be hustled though, power is up high.
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      07-05-2017, 10:05 PM   #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler View Post
I think there is often conflation between turbo lag and throttle response lag. Many modern sport/sporty cars have near instant throttle response, with or without turbos. For example, the throttle response in my Turbo S is just as sharp as my 991 GTS was (still feel that my E92M had the most instant throttle response but that's based on feel, I don't have numbers to back that up). But my TTS has turbo lag, meaning when I hit the gas at low rpms, the amount of power is significantly less for a moment before the turbos can produce full boost. That brief moment of power delivery variation can make it seem like nothing is happening when you first hit the gas but the throttle response is definitely still there.
Yes the lag you describe from the moment your foot/brain ask for more power to the time when it is actually delivered is always worse with a turbo car. It just is. There is a hesitation before the torque you requested is delivered. If it's very bad turbo lag it's painfully obvious and comes on like a light switch. If it's like the n5x then it's not so bad but it does lead to a rubber band like feel. Everything you do with the throttle feels like it's put through a filter. To me it's very noticeable... both on and off track. It's something that doesn't bother me as much off track but I really dislike it on track. When you are balancing the car on the edge of adhesion you want an immediate and as linear as possible connection between you and the torque at the rear wheels. And for that NA is certainly better than a turbo... and I would assume an electric powertrain is even better than NA but admittedly I've never driven one.
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      07-06-2017, 11:50 AM   #482
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Honestly I think it could be more throttle than anything else. In sport mode there really isn't any sort of lag, but left in comfort it can be somewhat brutal. Case in point, my i3 feels laggy when applying throttle. In fact, more so than the M235i. It's an electric car. I think it's just a BMW characteristic.
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      07-06-2017, 12:09 PM   #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
I like turbo lag. Well, not so much the lag as the rush of power that comes on after. It's intoxicating.
Yeah me too, especially with some e85 on map 5. Not linear...but a rush. Not supercar fast but impresses everyone. They just laugh and go, " wow."
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      07-07-2017, 11:10 AM   #484
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