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      11-18-2019, 06:11 PM   #23
Musashi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4_Johnnys View Post
This applies to all car parts, I worked in the car industry as an engineer for many years, on both the car manufacture side and the parts supplier side.

It's common for a parts manufacturer to build a part for say $40, sell it to the car company for $80, and then the car company would then sell it for $800 (these are real numbers from something I worked on). This mark up is common. Don't be surprised, how do you think they afford to pay thousands of engineers and staff to design and build the cars we love?

So yes they could sell the CCB for $1000, but then they wouldn't have enough money to pay engineers to actually design the next version...

Agree with all but one thing: "they wouldn't have enough money to pay engineers to actually design the next version" Well, every peer to peer academic article tells us that chopped CCBs have remained the same tech since the 1970s... Same, no change. All that has changed is automation, so that How it's made video is not longer relevant, it is now made the same way recycled rubber mats are... Almost.. Now, 3D needle is new but it is not the 350$ to 5000$ CCB tech..
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      11-18-2019, 10:48 PM   #24
M4_Johnnys
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
Agree with all but one thing: "they wouldn't have enough money to pay engineers to actually design the next version" Well, every peer to peer academic article tells us that chopped CCBs have remained the same tech since the 1970s... Same, no change. All that has changed is automation, so that How it's made video is not longer relevant, it is now made the same way recycled rubber mats are... Almost.. Now, 3D needle is new but it is not the 350$ to 5000$ CCB tech..
I wasn't referring to the actual material engineering side, in fact, there's a chance that the CCBs come from a supplier and not manufactured by BMW. But BMW engineers still need to design the part, the tolerances, the specs, new mounting points to fit new models, test engineers, CAD engineers, sales people, quality people, manufacturing engineers, maybe build a new assembly line or machinery, pay for marketing etc... where does the money come from to pay all these people?

If a car company sells an item for $1,000, $100 of that is the cost of the item, another $700 would go towards all the costs to run a car company which as you can imagine is substantial. Then maybe $200 profit. But all people see is the $900 difference between cost of part and sale price and somehow think everyone should work for free and building a manufacturing plant is free etc so how dare they mark something up so much...
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      11-18-2019, 11:30 PM   #25
Musashi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4_Johnnys View Post
I wasn't referring to the actual material engineering side, in fact, there's a chance that the CCBs come from a supplier and not manufactured by BMW. But BMW engineers still need to design the part, the tolerances, the specs, new mounting points to fit new models, test engineers, CAD engineers, sales people, quality people, manufacturing engineers, maybe build a new assembly line or machinery, pay for marketing etc... where does the money come from to pay all these people?

If a car company sells an item for $1,000, $100 of that is the cost of the item, another $700 would go towards all the costs to run a car company which as you can imagine is substantial. Then maybe $200 profit. But all people see is the $900 difference between cost of part and sale price and somehow think everyone should work for free and building a manufacturing plant is free etc so how dare they mark something up so much...
Actually, more than a chance. It was all designed by the same OEM supplier for their steel rotors: Brembo. Brembo likely sold these to BMW for anywhere between 400 and 500 USD. The other Zero is BMW profit- not Brembos. It is also a lower grade CCB that PCCB- so the production time instead of being 10 days or so is quite less, and hence why people have failures below 20,000 miles as opposed to 200,000.

I am sporting the first ever 3D Continuous fibre CCB on a 3 series, non M, 4 pistons, customized by myself. No need for engineers to design the part, the tolerances, the specs, new mounting points to fit new models, test engineers, CAD engineers, sales people, quality people, manufacturing engineers. The aerospace science, which happened to be my field when seeing 4 such discs slow down 280 to 50 km/hr 50,000 lbs or more jets, and all the science I learned told me all the R&D had already been done: 40 years for chopped CCBs, decade plus for 3D, and 3 years or so for 3D in automotive applications.

All I did is calculate the size, some math for the pads, energy dissipation, weight of the car at 3700lbs and essentially 370x 30 (30.25mm) is eezy peezy for these. Nope, BMW did none of that, it is COTS from Brembo or one of its contracted suppliers. The rest is making the suckers pay.

At this point am at a few years of follow up, scientific research and direct contact with chopped and 3D CCB manufacturers, and what I am telling here is just a fact. They cost a few hours of labor to make, automated process, the carbon and raw materials are cheap, and do not cost more, with profit, than say 400$ per rotor. This is not an Apple iPhone BOM cost of 42% material cost and 58% markup (build of materials are very finite industry specifics for anything from Toray 700 carbon to raw diamonds), but 1000% markup as it is that easy to do that for chopped CCBs that need a few days (3D need 2-3 months in contrast).

that How it is Made Video? Makers laugh at it as they have not done them in such a slow artisanal fashion in 15 years! Carbon fiber, silicon resin, a brake disc mold shape, heat and pressure converting the resin into epoxy, water cooled, then baked to 1700C over several days until you get the silicon carbide (Chopped CCBs), or power ceramic as a core and a fine ceramic exterior mirror coating. You could do it if having a 1700C oven and enough ventilation to not hurt yourself. This formula has not changed for decades (nor has making knife steel with pearlite and martensic temper properties) but its automation, from artisanal to million rotors per year, that automatisation has changed from 50 hours labour to 2-3.

3D CCBs are baby new, take no resin (hence no melting under heat applications), but chemical vapour infiltration (CVI), gas pressure, several 2D preforms then fancy needles threading at -45 to 90deg a carbon thread, stuffing the preforms not that dissimilar to a Singer machine, but lots of needles for the head. The end result is 2d preform cris crossed with these carbon wires, becoming more like armored concrete and no resin as glue (hence 3D not boiling and decaying internally as chopped, but also much longer time is needed to do the needling and re-needling). this stuff looks more like household insulator or fiberglass, with a final consistency and material properties approaching diamond numbers. No, Brembo does not have patents to that it never did, it being an aerospace tech Brembo ignored and never realized it could be downsized for cars... Yes, you could buy a 3D CCB needle machine, it is several hundred K, tungsten needles last 50k perforations, and if you have a year, an oven and a CVI dome, you can make your own 3D CCBs.

The industry wants you to believe what you just wrote so you can never go shopping at better cheaper sources and, god forbid, but out of business their 1000% marked up brake logistical supply chain!

Last edited by Musashi; 11-18-2019 at 11:59 PM..
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      11-20-2019, 03:56 PM   #26
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so all this reinforces my theory about high performance tax, such as GTR tax, M tax etc etc.
And we all believe taiwanese made coilovers , brakes etc are crap because too cheap. Probably that is what they should cost , and others are simply too expensive.
Unless on a pure race car, I cannot justify spending 2/3 times more on BBK and coilovers...
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