Evolution of speed intercooler

[m4f82kuwait]

I'm looking for an intercooler for my m4 to install.
I've read many forums and found one but not sure about it.

http://www.eospeed.com/products/evol...nt-intercooler

is there any better options ? or the one i found is totally good?

[Brasko]

For that price I'd look into Dinan High-Performance Heat Exchanger. You would probably get far better gains than the top-mount.

[VF-Engineering]

To be fair they each serve a separate function even though they are part of the same closed loop system.

The charge cooler (top mount) does it's job to lower the IAT's by using water to cool the charged air before it enters the intake manifold.

The heat exchanger (front mount) is meant to improve recovery time by cooling that same water before it makes a full pass back into the charge cooler.

It hard to say which one would make the more significant impact without knowing exactly what sort of driving you do or exactly what you're trying to accomplish.

Ideally if you're pushing the car hard on the track, you'll want to upgrade both. If you're primarily a street driver, in conditions with less than ideal airflow at the front of the car, the charge cooler may be the better initial upgrade.

We're debuting both units at SEMA this week with CSF which will be available for pre-order soon (once we finalize testing), and hopefully should be able to put product into customers hands in December.

[BuLoOoSki]

Originally Posted by VF-Engineering

To be fair they each serve a separate function even though they are part of the same closed loop system.

The charge cooler (top mount) does it's job to lower the IAT's by using water to cool the charged air before it enters the intake manifold.

The heat exchanger (front mount) is meant to improve recovery time by cooling that same water before it makes a full pass back into the charge cooler.

It hard to say which one would make the more significant impact without knowing exactly what sort of driving you do or exactly what you're trying to accomplish.

Ideally if you're pushing the car hard on the track, you'll want to upgrade both. If you're primarily a street driver, in conditions with less than ideal airflow at the front of the car, the charge cooler may be the better initial upgrade.

We're debuting both units at SEMA this week with CSF which will be available for pre-order soon (once we finalize testing), and hopefully should be able to put product into customers hands in December.

Care to elaborate on this? How can airflow conditions not be ideal on street driving?

[BuLoOoSki]

Originally Posted by m4f82kuwait

I'm looking for an intercooler for my m4 to install.
I've read many forums and found one but not sure about it.

http://www.eospeed.com/products/evol...nt-intercooler

is there any better options ? or the one i found is totally good?

I believe there are 4 options currently being sold if you're looking for a charge cooler:

• Evolution of Speed
• Fall-Line Motorsports (Which seem to have been pulled down from their site recently)
• CSF (Sold by VF Engineering)
• Miller Performance

Not sure if it's something worth spending 2K on though. Plus there hasn't been any data or testing whatsoever from any of those three companies showing any benefits from an upgraded charge cooler. As a matter of fact EOS and Fall-Line never even officially announced the release of their product for some reason...

If for whatever reason you believe you need to upgrade your cooling system, which personally I don't see anyone with stock turbos needing to, get an upgraded Heat Exchanger. Atleast there is some testing/data (from Dinan only as of today) to support their benefit. And it is much more reasonably priced.

Just my 2 cents.

[VF-Engineering]

Originally Posted by BuLoOoSki

Care to elaborate on this? How can airflow conditions not be ideal on street driving?

Slower driving speeds, stop and go traffic, disrupted airflow from vehicles in front of you, etc... all equate to less than ideal airflow.

The best possible airflow comes at higher speeds, during sustained driving, without additional obstructions. (IE: anytime you can drive for extended periods of time with fresh, unobstructed airflow.)

As mentioned above, the purpose of the charge cooler is to cool the compressed air, while the purposed of the heat exchanger is to cool the water that is flowing through the charge cooler. One doesn't work without the other, and the decision as to which to upgrade first would be based on driving conditions and intended use.



We will also be presenting plenty of technical data and testing results as we get closer to official release. Wind Tunnel Testing, Dyno Testing, On-Road Testing, Track Testing, etc...

The only reason CSF has announced our partnership and soon to be released cooling products is because SEMA is this week where the products will be debuted to industry professionals.

[Josh/AWE]

Originally Posted by BuLoOoSki

If for whatever reason you believe you need to upgrade your cooling system, which personally I don't see anyone with stock turbos needing to, get an upgraded Heat Exchanger. Atleast there is some testing/data (from Dinan only as of today) to support their benefit. And it is much more reasonably priced.

Just my 2 cents.

For the sake of simply curing curiousity, data for an M4 equipped with only an exhaust, intake, and our ColdFront™ Heat Exchanger can be seen here (IAT - closed course), here (IAT - dyno), here (WHP, stock heat exchanger - dyno), and here (WHP, AWE ColdFront™ - dyno).

[BuLoOoSki]

Originally Posted by VF-Engineering

Slower driving speeds, stop and go traffic, disrupted airflow from vehicles in front of you, etc... all equate to less than ideal airflow.

The best possible airflow comes at higher speeds, during sustained driving, without additional obstructions. (IE: anytime you can drive for extended periods of time with fresh, unobstructed airflow.)

As mentioned above, the purpose of the charge cooler is to cool the compressed air, while the purposed of the heat exchanger is to cool the water that is flowing through the charge cooler. One doesn't work without the other, and the decision as to which to upgrade first would be based on driving conditions and intended use.



We will also be presenting plenty of technical data and testing results as we get closer to official release. Wind Tunnel Testing, Dyno Testing, On-Road Testing, Track Testing, etc...

The only reason CSF has announced our partnership and soon to be released cooling products is because SEMA is this week where the products will be debuted to industry professionals.

So you're saying that the stock charge cooler cannot handle day to day normal street driving?

[BuLoOoSki]

Originally Posted by Josh/AWE

For the sake of simply curing curiousity, data for an M4 equipped with only an exhaust, intake, and our ColdFront™ Heat Exchanger can be seen here (IAT - closed course), here (IAT - dyno), here (WHP, stock heat exchanger - dyno), and here (WHP, AWE ColdFront™ - dyno).

That's my bad. I never realized you guys ended up posting some data.

But I have to say it seems odd to me that even at idle the IAT's are lower, I would assume they'd be the same. The car is programmed to target a particular operating temperature and hence control fan speed and water pumping to stay within that target regardless of the size of your heat exchanger, radiator, oil cooler etc.

I could be wrong though...

[VF-Engineering]

Originally Posted by BuLoOoSki

So you're saying that the stock charge cooler cannot handle day to day normal street driving?

No, we're not saying anything remotely close to that.

[BuLoOoSki]

Originally Posted by VF-Engineering

No, we're not saying anything remotely close to that.

Then how and why do you believe that someone who mostly does street driving might want to upgrade to your intercooler even though you havn't even done any testing to prove that it will help in any way?

[1FastS4]

Originally Posted by BuLoOoSki

Then how and why do you believe that someone who mostly does street driving might want to upgrade to your intercooler even though you havn't even done any testing to prove that it will help in any way?

There's lots of people who drive hard on the street. Then you come to a stop light and sit there and the engine bay heat soaks. Or if you're at the drag strip, you're driving through the pits and idling without fresh air. Or if you're playing hard on the highway but our house is a few miles away on surface streets. I think that's what he's talking about.

[SakhirM4]

I don't understand this at all. There are quite a few people on this forum, like MaynardZed and CanAutM3 that have a lot of track time with the F8X platform and have mentioned how cool the intercooler is after multiple track sessions.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

I don't understand this at all. There are quite a few people on this forum, like MaynardZed and CanAutM3 that have a lot of track time with the F8X platform and have mentioned how cool the intercooler is after multiple track sessions.

My engine is completely stock, so the intercooling system's capacity is sufficient for my needs. As you mentioned, after a full 30 minute track session, the interccoler remains cool to the touch. Quite amazing actually.

That being said, for those pushing more boost, there probably comes a point where the stock intercooling system becomes insufficient. Hence the need to increase its capacity.

[BuLoOoSki]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

I don't understand this at all. There are quite a few people on this forum, like MaynardZed and CanAutM3 that have a lot of track time with the F8X platform and have mentioned how cool the intercooler is after multiple track sessions.

True...I've also had my car get back to back runs on the dyno with no where near "ideal air flow conditions" and the intercooler still feels cool to the touch.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by VF-Engineering

To be fair they each serve a separate function even though they are part of the same closed loop system.

The charge cooler (top mount) does it's job to lower the IAT's by using water to cool the charged air before it enters the intake manifold.

The heat exchanger (front mount) is meant to improve recovery time by cooling that same water before it makes a full pass back into the charge cooler.

It hard to say which one would make the more significant impact without knowing exactly what sort of driving you do or exactly what you're trying to accomplish.

Ideally if you're pushing the car hard on the track, you'll want to upgrade both. If you're primarily a street driver, in conditions with less than ideal airflow at the front of the car, the charge cooler may be the better initial upgrade.

We're debuting both units at SEMA this week with CSF which will be available for pre-order soon (once we finalize testing), and hopefully should be able to put product into customers hands in December.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

My engine is completely stock, so the intercooling system's capacity is sufficient for my needs. As you mentioned, after a full 30 minute track session, the interccoler remains cool to the touch. Quite amazing actually.

That being said, for those pushing more boost, there probably comes a point where the stock intercooling system becomes insufficient. Hence the need to increase its capacity.

I was referring to what was in bold above and this goes against your experience.

[BuLoOoSki]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

There's lots of people who drive hard on the street. Then you come to a stop light and sit there and the engine bay heat soaks. Or if you're at the drag strip, you're driving through the pits and idling without fresh air. Or if you're playing hard on the highway but our house is a few miles away on surface streets. I think that's what he's talking about.

I understand what you're saying, even though I might not agree with all of it. I'm sure when BMW designed their cooling system they took into account that this is an M car that will be driven hard in all sorts of different conditions (and not just in a wind tunnel with "ideal airflow" conditions.

What I was saying is that there has been no testing done yet from their behalf to confirm if by upgrading to their intercooler will help with any of that. Neither has there been any tests from their competition to support that. For all we know they might not show any significant benefit for a stock or even a tuned car.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

I was referring to what was in bold above and this goes against your experience.

I think we are in agreement to say that on stock boost levels, there is no need to upgrade the intercooler system.

My point is that as boost is increased, the intercooler system will reach its limit at some point. Where that threshold is, I cannot say.

[shahano]

I believe this product will benefit people tuning the car beyond stock.

[shahano]

similar to charge pipes failing when people are running extra boost.

[m4f82kuwait]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I think we are in agreement to say that on stock boost levels, there is no need to upgrade the intercooler system.

My point is that as boost is increased, the intercooler system will reach its limit at some point. Where that threshold is, I cannot say.

and my point is upgrading my intercooler system for a stock turbo 492 whp also heat exchanger for gains + cool off the hot weather

[EMC]

Originally Posted by shahano

I believe this product will benefit people tuning the car beyond stock.

That's what eospeed testing has shown so far. 10whp gain on a bone stock car is magnified when they start running higher boost. A higher volume pump will help to move the coolant and make for better gains as well, but that's something still being worked on.

Another thing to factor is system volume. According to Edelbrock, etc. you size the volume of the system so you can run a quarter mile without recirculating the coolant that went through the heat exchanger. That ensures a consistent run and temps. Of course that would vary if you want to run 1/2 mile races, etc.