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      04-23-2014, 06:24 PM   #155
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Damn it. Makes me want to get one now. I hate this forum.
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      04-23-2014, 06:32 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Same problem as above, the GTS was offered at a price of $150K... not a suitable price point for the class or for the largest market (USA).
A lot of that price was because of the limited production. If BMW had made another 1,000 units, I'm sure the price would have been a lot lower. BMW keeps saying it's too expensive to Federalize the cars here, but why is it Porsche can do it with all the niche models they come out with? How many Black Series does MB sell here? Why is it only BMW who can't seem to import these niche vehicles??

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Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
BMW claims the S55 is 10kg lighter than the S65
Does that include turbos/intercoolers? Or is it more of BMW playing with the numbers??

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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
I will ask a simpler question... in keeping with the NA motors, how could BMW have improved on the S65? Larger displacement? Honest question.
BMW could have used the 4.4 block/crank it already had, and added Direct Injection. Porsche's new engines are BEASTS with DI. This would also improved CO2 emissions by around 15% for most cars with DI. They could have made the internals lighter and increased the redline, or just gone all out and made a flat plane crank V8 and just WIN BIG!!!

.
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      04-23-2014, 06:44 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
A lot of that price was because of the limited production. If BMW had made another 1,000 units, I'm sure the price would have been a lot lower. BMW keeps saying it's too expensive to Federalize the cars here, but why is it Porsche can do it with all the niche models they come out with? How many Black Series does MB sell here? Why is it only BMW who can't seem to import these niche vehicles??



Does that include turbos/intercoolers? Or is it more of BMW playing with the numbers??



BMW could have used the 4.4 block/crank it already had, and added Direct Injection. Porsche's new engines are BEASTS with DI. This would also improved CO2 emissions by around 15% for most cars with DI. They could have made the internals lighter and increased the redline, or just gone all out and made a flat plane crank V8 and just WIN BIG!!!
.
Let's hope Porsche keep driving NA progress in both mpg, power and redline. If not the NA engine is very likely gone forever outside exotics and small engines supporting hybrids or powering tiny city type cars like SMART. I'm ok to switch it up with a fan this time around but would love the option for an M designed NA screamer next time around even if it's something like a small 3 liter V8
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      04-24-2014, 03:26 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
A lot of that price was because of the limited production. If BMW had made another 1,000 units, I'm sure the price would have been a lot lower. BMW keeps saying it's too expensive to Federalize the cars here, but why is it Porsche can do it with all the niche models they come out with? How many Black Series does MB sell here? Why is it only BMW who can't seem to import these niche vehicles??


BMW could have used the 4.4 block/crank it already had, and added Direct Injection. Porsche's new engines are BEASTS with DI. This would also improved CO2 emissions by around 15% for most cars with DI. They could have made the internals lighter and increased the redline, or just gone all out and made a flat plane crank V8 and just WIN BIG!!!

.
It seems simple in theory, but there are vital differences in how CO2 emission targets come into play here...

Porsche is part of a pool of 10 manufacturers under the VW umbrella. The pools combined CO2 emissions is what counts when the 130g/km of CO2 has to be met. In 2012 the VW pool had a combined CO2 of 120g/km, allready below the 130g/km level required for 2015.

BMW also has a pool, but only has BMW (incl. MINI), Rolls Royce and M GmbH in it's pool. In 2012 they had a combined CO2 of 124g/km, also below the 130g/km target for 2015.

However, M GmbH's average CO2 emissions was 231g/km in 2012 and they have set a target at 151g/km in order to meet their pool's requirements for future combined CO2 numbers of 90g/km (in 2020). Even the F8x at 199g/km exceeds that target...

AMG, in comparison, had a 2012 CO2 emission of just 177g/km and have the same target of 151g/km as M GmbH does. AMG is MUCH closer to meeting their CO2 requirements than M GmbH was back in 2012... (Quattro GmbH was at 219g/km and has a target of 147g/km).

If we look at Porsche's CO2 numbers, as a company and not as part of the VW pool, we will see that they had a 2012 CO2 emission of just 188g/km and has set a target of 153g/km. This tells us that Porsche allready has a combined corporate CO2 number that is LOWER than the best M GmbH car (the F8x at 199g/km).

M GmbH sold 6.375 cars in EU in 2012
Porsche sold 42.299 cars in EU in 2012

It's obviously easier for Porsche to make a few GT3's and such. They still only represent at VERY small percentage of total production numbers and make a small impact on corporate CO2 numbers.

BMW could also do a limited production NA version, but just a 500 production number would mean 8% of total production... And I'm not sure if Porsche makes as much as 8% (or 3.400) GT3's at 289g/km CO2 each year

If I'm not much mistaken the 997 GT3 sold about 1000 examples in the US over a two year period, and approximately the same in Europe. So 500 a year in Europe. 500 examples means 1,2% of total Porsche production. For M GmbH a limited edition model that makes a similarly small impact on total CO2 emissions as the GT3 does to Porsche would mean that they could only sell 76 cars per year in Europe (1,2% of 6.375).

It's hard to make a good business case for such a small production... And M GmbH has to meet their 151g/km target...

However, a NA engine and hybrid powertrain in addition (Porsche 918), that could be a VERY interesting scenario that creates LOW CO2 emissions and the best of both worlds


The above calculations are obviously just simplified versions of a quite complex legislation

Source on CO2 emissions:

http://www.ademloos.be/sites/default...Oct%202013.pdf
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      04-24-2014, 09:44 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
It seems simple in theory, but there are vital differences in how CO2 emission targets come into play here...
That was a fantastic analysis, Boss330! A couple of comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
If I'm not much mistaken the 997 GT3 sold about 1000 examples in the US over a two year period, and approximately the same in Europe. So 500 a year in Europe. 500 examples means 1,2% of total Porsche production. For M GmbH a limited edition model that makes a similarly small impact on total CO2 emissions as the GT3 does to Porsche would mean that they could only sell 76 cars per year in Europe (1,2% of 6.375).

It's hard to make a good business case for such a small production... And M GmbH has to meet their 151g/km target...
When you run the numbers, it is really remarkable how tightly constrained BMW is by their independence. It also highlights just how good a strategic move the "accidental" acquisition of Porsche by VAG ended up being, even if Porsche didn't intend it that way.

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Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
However, a NA engine and hybrid powertrain in addition (Porsche 918), that could be a VERY interesting scenario that creates LOW CO2 emissions and the best of both worlds
As much as I wish for that, I don't know that we'll continue to see N/A engines, even in hybrid situations. The hybrid drive train makes it very easy to compensate for the shortcomings of a heavily boosted ICE (internal combustion engine). McLaren's P1 is overshadowing the 918, despite the achievement that the 918 is, and a lot of that has to do with it's incredibly powerful drivetrain, which delivers over 190 HP/L, before you factor in the power from the electrical drivetrain components. No one I've read has said a word about any lag or lack of response from the P1.

Sports car manufacturing has a tendency to adopt a me-too approach to product development. Everyone wants to scavenge the success of the leader, and the P1 is just too far out front right now. I'd expect a lot of copying of their formula, and that means hybrid power trains with extremely high specific-output, forced-induction engines.
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      04-24-2014, 12:11 PM   #160
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Wow you guys so angry
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      04-24-2014, 12:20 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
As much as I wish for that, I don't know that we'll continue to see N/A engines, even in hybrid situations. The hybrid drive train makes it very easy to compensate for the shortcomings of a heavily boosted ICE (internal combustion engine). McLaren's P1 is overshadowing the 918, despite the achievement that the 918 is, and a lot of that has to do with it's incredibly powerful drivetrain, which delivers over 190 HP/L, before you factor in the power from the electrical drivetrain components. No one I've read has said a word about any lag or lack of response from the P1.

Sports car manufacturing has a tendency to adopt a me-too approach to product development. Everyone wants to scavenge the success of the leader, and the P1 is just too far out front right now. I'd expect a lot of copying of their formula, and that means hybrid power trains with extremely high specific-output, forced-induction engines.
I agree, especially since it's not only the P1, it's the entire Formula 1 circus which includes companies as Benz, Ferrari and Renault. All working with building the ultimate electric + FI engines. I will always prefer a NA high-end engine over an FI engine but the future look very sad for the NA engine and these hybrids seems very cool where the electric engines instant response can cover for many FI shortcomings. Sound is unfortunately not one of them.

However as long as the GT3 remains arguably the most coveted,praised and somewhat attainable sports car in the world I can't see Porsche doing away with it's core asset, the NA engine.

Last edited by solstice; 04-24-2014 at 12:31 PM..
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      04-24-2014, 02:02 PM   #162
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And even Porsche is going FI in more and more cars The Cayman and Boxster are confirmed to be headed to an F4 configuration with up to 395 HP. There's no way they're getting to that HP number without FI.

I suspect the GT3 will be the last car in the world to go FI... at least I hope
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      04-24-2014, 02:27 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
And even Porsche is going FI in more and more cars The Cayman and Boxster are confirmed to be headed to an F4 configuration with up to 395 HP. There's no way they're getting to that HP number without FI.

I suspect the GT3 will be the last car in the world to go FI... at least I hope
Me too, since it will likely never happen. It will likely be discontinued if needs be since Porsche already have an FI GT car in the GT2.
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      04-26-2014, 05:19 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
"driveability" is the reason what makes all previous M3s faster than even competitors with much more hp.
And for "driveability" an linear power output is much more important than high low-end-torque ... or better high low-end-torque reduces the drivability of cars on track, simple because its an great problem to bring this torque on track without wheel spin.
This is just hilarious... Really outdated thinking.

You just press the accelerator more gently and there you have it, lower torque.
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      04-26-2014, 05:39 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by kevinlevrone View Post
This is just hilarious... Really outdated thinking.

You just press the accelerator more gently and there you have it, lower torque.
NOPE ... seems you are no expert in driving dynamics !!!

Its totally clear that to be more gentle on the accelerator meens lower torque and therefor less wheel spin ... but that doesn´t define an fast car ...the fastest (idealistic) car is this where you have high hp and at the same time you doesn´t have to think about too much wheel spin.
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      04-26-2014, 07:16 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
NOPE ... seems you are no expert in driving dynamics !!!

Its totally clear that to be more gentle on the accelerator meens lower torque and therefor less wheel spin ... but that doesn´t define an fast car ...the fastest (idealistic) car is this where you have high hp and at the same time you doesn´t have to think about too much wheel spin.
So which car does not have "too much wheelspin" and is ideal for tracking? E46 M3 CSL? Sure, but it would have been even quicker around the Ring with a more powerful engine...

If the F82 M4 is more than 10 seconds faster around the Nürburgring, BMW surely must have done something correct?

If you are worried about wheelspin just leave the traction control on, and the electronics will take care of you being able to get as much power as possible to the ground. If not you have to rely on the driver being able to balance throttle input...

A engine that has a on/off torque delivery will be hard to drive fast around a track, kind of like my old Sierra RS Cosworth that it is tricky to modulate the power on

However a engine that has enough power/torque to break traction in low speed corners will also be able to pull more straight line speed compared to a engine that is barely able to break traction in the same low speed corner. In one car you can just mash the throttle through the corner and not worry about wheelspin. In the other car you will have to modulate the throttle and ease in on the accelerator. Both cars will have no problem doing the same corner speed, but the more powerful car will pull away on every straight as it has more accelerative power...

The above is possible with a good driver. Put a bad driver behind the wheel of the powerful car, turn TC off, and you have a tricky situation

Usually, turning power down doesn't result in quicker lap times

Last edited by Boss330; 04-26-2014 at 07:27 AM..
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      04-26-2014, 07:40 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
So which car does not have "too much wheelspin" and is ideal for tracking? E46 M3 CSL? Sure, but it would have been even quicker around the Ring with a more powerful engine...

If the F82 M4 is more than 10 seconds faster around the Nürburgring, BMW surely must have done something correct?

If you are worried about wheelspin just leave the traction control on, and the electronics will take care of you being able to get as much power as possible to the ground. If not you have to rely on the driver being able to balance throttle input...

A engine that has a on/off torque delivery will be hard to drive fast around a track, kind of like my old Sierra RS Cosworth that it is tricky to modulate the power on

However a engine that has enough power/torque to break traction in low speed corners will also be able to pull more straight line speed compared to a engine that is barely able to break traction in the same low speed corner. In one car you can just mash the throttle through the corner and not worry about wheelspin. In the other car you will have to modulate the throttle and ease in on the accelerator. Both cars will have no problem doing the same corner speed, but the more powerful car will pull away on every straight as it has more accelerative power...

The above is possible with a good driver. Put a bad driver behind the wheel of the powerful car, turn TC off, and you have a tricky situation

Usually, turning power down doesn't result in quicker lap times
Thanks for this really good explanation !!!

To make my statememt from above right, I must say that I am speaking from car with nearly the same hp-output (in the same hp-class) to make apples-to-apples ... I think in this case the car with less wheel spin issues would be faster - in the corner and as fast as in straight line.

In my opinion more low-end-torque or more torque makes automatically no car faster on the track ... if this would be the case all US-Muscle-Car would be unbeatable in trackuse.
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      04-26-2014, 10:06 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
Thanks for this really good explanation !!!

To make my statememt from above right, I must say that I am speaking from car with nearly the same hp-output (in the same hp-class) to make apples-to-apples ... I think in this case the car with less wheel spin issues would be faster - in the corner and as fast as in straight line.

In my opinion more low-end-torque or more torque makes automatically no car faster on the track ... if this would be the case all US-Muscle-Car would be unbeatable in trackuse.
Low end torque can be harder to deal with on a track, that's right. Especially if it's of the on/off kind of character...

It definitely takes throttle modulation skills and a driver that has good reactions and "feel" for the car

Also don't forget that with a turbo engine like the S55 you will also have the option of shortshifting out of a corner if traction is a problem. Just change up one gear and the engine will still be in it's torque band and give good acceleration but without wheelspin Just look at this years F1 driving style. To manage the high torque they often short shift coming out of a corner.

US muscle cars (of the old school) didn't have the suspension or brakes to do quick lap times. But look at the new Corvette with it's large displacement engine and loads of low end grunt. Seems to do pretty well aroun a track

And look at this guy tracking his M6 round the 'Ring. He carries quite a lot of speed into, through and out of corners. And that's in a car with heaps of torque...

http://<div class="youtube-playerCon.../iframe></div>
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      04-26-2014, 10:53 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
It seems simple in theory, but there are vital differences in how CO2 emission targets come into play here...
Thanks very interesting info!
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      04-26-2014, 11:31 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by elevenfive
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
It seems simple in theory, but there are vital differences in how CO2 emission targets come into play here...
Thanks very interesting info!
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      04-26-2014, 01:34 PM   #171
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Now we know why everyone is so focused on the true weight of the f8x platform - how does the power delivery dynamic of the S55 and its torque characteristics play into track modulation? Now I see why the throttle is programmed so linearly however I prefer the trigger throttle and that all out boost feeling earlier. I get lazy of having to push the pedal that far

Short shifting out of a turn is safe but boring unless you are driving an F40 or something like that

And the weight of the M6 and/or the convertible top (e93/f83) allows you to push hard through turns and know you will stick... So anti-drifting but not absolute
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      04-26-2014, 01:37 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
However as long as the GT3 remains arguably the most coveted,praised and somewhat attainable sports car in the world I can't see Porsche doing away with it's core asset, the NA engine.
Until it catches on fire
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      04-26-2014, 01:41 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurman Murch View Post
Now we know why everyone is so focused on the true weight of the f8x platform - how does the power delivery dynamic of the S55 and its torque characteristics play into track modulation? Now I see why the throttle is programmed so linearly however I prefer the trigger throttle and that all out boost feeling earlier. I get lazy of having to push the pedal that far

Short shifting out of a turn is safe but boring unless you are driving an F40 or something like that

And the weight of the M6 and/or the convertible top (e93/f83) allows you to push hard through turns and know you will stick... So anti-drifting but not absolute
I don't understand any of this post really

a heavier car doesn't mean it has more grip. and the m6 has been ripped in many reviews for not having enough grip or enough chassis to handle the monster engine

also, all a more powerful car takes is a little more patience on the throttle application coming out of a corner. this is the same regardless if its an N/A or turbo engine if it makes a lot of power.

turbos and big engines IMO are fun on the track because you don't have to be on the razors edge of RPMs coming out of corners in order to have a lot of power blasting into the next straight. ive tracked cars with big torque and its a lot of fun blasting out of corners.

this isn't a zr1 or some uncontrollable monster like a gt2 rs, its going to be great on track

also, can you explain what you mean by your first statement?
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      07-01-2014, 07:50 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
It fell flat on its face at top because the car was tuned exceptionally rich from the factory and pulled boost at high RPM.

Let me tell you that once a N54 car is tuned properly it can pull very hard all the way to high RPMs. I am no fan of the comatose ride and driving experience of the 335i but that engine is an absolute gem.

I want to see the technical specifications of the S55 turbo vs the N54 turbo. My guess is that the S55 turbo is smaller, spools faster, is more efficient, but cannot flow as much as the N54 turbo which I believe was good for up to 400 whp if i am not mistaken. I do not think that the S55 turbo will be capable of that much power over stock and I would expect that there is going to be a healthy market for plug-n-play turbo upgrade kits for the F80/F82.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
We will find out but no n54 car continues to make powerl to redline on pump without new turbos, and it certainly can't rev as high. These turbos clearly allow more boost to be held to redline in stock form . Considering they have to be able to perform at high altitude , high temperature and poor gas quality environments, I am certain the car can be tuned to push harder at all rpms even without hardware upgrades. With hardware upgrades it should certainly pull harder up top.

Only one way to find out

Edit : that said, I have a lot of love for the n54
Comparing the N54, what I want to understand is how does the S55 boost 18psi on lower grade fuel, good for 420+whp in stock form, and already seeing boost upped to 24psi with tuning for higher octane to reach 480whp? Pretty amazing engine the S55 is. The N54 needs meth or race gas + FBO and maybe upgraded turbos.
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