Aluminium charge pipes....

[GeordieMike]

So a discussion has arisen here in the UK with performance garage concerning aluminium charge pipes. They're claiming that the aluminium charge pipes heat soak the charge air resulting a loss of power (claiming up to a 20hp reduction) and advise against them.

I've tried to explain that in opinion this couldn't be possible.

So I've decided to bring it to the forum and get everyone's opinions and experience on the matter.

Thanks

Mike

[Pennzoil]

According on jb4 Bluetooth real time data, after changed CP , the IAT really higher than plastic CP on idle status , but on running the car , it seem almost the same (+/-) 2~3 degree

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Do they have any data to provide?

It shouldn't matter if the car is moving but a heat soaked car at idle and stand still might show the aluminum heat soaking more.

Regardless, if you don't want to upgrade, eventually your stock plastic one will crack.

So it really doesn't leave much choice in my eyes.

However, one could just send out the pipes to be ceramic coated or wrap them.

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by Pennzoil

According on jb4 Bluetooth real time data, after changed CP , the IAT really higher than plastic CP on idle status , but on running the car , it seem almost the same (+/-) 2~3 degree

Gold reflective tape could help in this situation to keep temps down on idle

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by GeordieMike

So a discussion has arisen here in the UK with performance garage concerning aluminium charge pipes. They're claiming that the aluminium charge pipes heat soak the charge air resulting a loss of power (claiming up to a 20hp reduction) and advise against them.

I've tried to explain that in opinion this couldn't be possible.

So I've decided to bring it to the forum and get everyone's opinions and experience on the matter.

Thanks

Mike

We've been selling upgraded charge pipe since 2008 on boosted applications and have not come across any data to show charge air is hotter then stock when using aluminum.

All datalogs I have seen do not show any change in temp. At least not within error or ambient changes.

If the shop is claiming this you should ask them for proper data to back their claim up.

Mike

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by GeordieMike

So a discussion has arisen here in the UK with performance garage concerning aluminium charge pipes. They're claiming that the aluminium charge pipes heat soak the charge air resulting a loss of power (claiming up to a 20hp reduction) and advise against them.

I've tried to explain that in opinion this couldn't be possible.

So I've decided to bring it to the forum and get everyone's opinions and experience on the matter.

Thanks

Mike

Ask them for data to prove their claims

[Pennzoil]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

Gold reflective tape could help in this situation to keep temps down on idle

Yup ... I bought IDE reflect gold tape before , but don't know it really work or not

[stranger]

Couldn't you wrap the stock charge pipe in cf strengthen it and provide some eye candy?

Would be cheaper then buying an aluminium set

[maximumpsi]

Originally Posted by GeordieMike

So a discussion has arisen here in the UK with performance garage concerning aluminium charge pipes. They're claiming that the aluminium charge pipes heat soak the charge air resulting a loss of power (claiming up to a 20hp reduction) and advise against them.

I've tried to explain that in opinion this couldn't be possible.

So I've decided to bring it to the forum and get everyone's opinions and experience on the matter.

Thanks

Mike

We have full silicone charge pipes that should eliminate your concerns. I hope to have them ready in a few weeks at most. They will clear all intakes, solve the breaking issues, and take care of any potential heat soak concerns.

[stranger]

Originally Posted by maximumpsi

We have full silicone charge pipes that should eliminate your concerns. I hope to have them ready in a few weeks at most. They will clear all intakes, solve the breaking issues, and take care of any potential heat soak concerns.

Any idea of price?

[Boss330]

Aluminium has a much higher/better heat transfer capability than plastic. So it will heat soak much more than a plastic piece. That is to say, it will be able to soak more of the heat in the engine compartment and transfer that to the air surrounding it. As Pennzoil wrote, that can be seen during idle with low air flow. The air flows so slow that the charge pipe transfers heat to the air. It makes less of a difference at higher rpm's since the air flows faster and has less time to get heated by the charge pipe (if the engine compartment side of the charge pipe has a higher surrounding temp than the charge air).

Which is why a radiator or chargecooler usually has a aluminium or metallic core. To take advantage of that materials heat exchange capabilities (but by surrounding the core with a lower temperature to cool down the charge air, not heat it up).

The ability to transfer temperature can be illustrated by how, on a cold day, a interior part in aluminium is cooler to the touch than a piece of plastic or leather. Both parts are at the exact same temperature. But the aluminium piece feels much colder. That's because aluminium transfers the temperature to your hand much more effectively than plastic for instance.

[Pennzoil]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Aluminium has a much higher/better heat transfer capability than plastic. So it will heat soak much more than a plastic piece. That is to say, it will be able to soak more of the heat in the engine compartment and transfer that to the air surrounding it. As Pennzoil wrote, that can be seen during idle with low air flow. The air flows so slow that the charge pipe transfers heat to the air. It makes less of a difference at higher rpm's since the air flows faster and has less time to get heated by the charge pipe (if the engine compartment side of the charge pipe has a higher surrounding temp than the charge air).

Which is why a radiator or chargecooler usually has a aluminium or metallic core. To take advantage of that materials heat exchange capabilities (but by surrounding the core with a lower temperature to cool down the charge air, not heat it up).

The ability to transfer temperature can be illustrated by how, on a cold day, a interior part in aluminium is cooler to the touch than a piece of plastic or leather. Both parts are at the exact same temperature. But the aluminium piece feels much colder. That's because aluminium transfers the temperature to your hand much more effectively than plastic for instance.

yeah~! that's a good point , if the car really heat , i think aluminium CP will affect the IAT , just like you put your hand behind the radiator and fans , you can feel much warmer than ambient temperature , so i think it will affect IAT when the intercooler heated on a certain level....

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Railgun

For the record, this is not the first instance of aluminum being used in this context. Just look at every aftermarket boosted setup for, say, the JDM market since forever. My RX7 included. All metal. All the time.

This is a non issue.

It's not a "non issue" since aluminium DO have different heat transfer characteristics to plastic. Aluminium WILL transfer more temperature to the air inside the charge pipe. Which also means that cooling the aluminium charge pipe with dry ice will help cool the charge air more than if you did the same to the plastic pipes.

But the effect probably won't be very noticeable during higher air flow. And, if the temperature on the outside of the charge pipes is cooler than the charge air inside the pipe, then aluminium charge pipes will be beneficial to cooling the charge air. Also the delta between outside and inside temperature needs to be high enough to actually make a difference. So, during driving with air flow through the engine compartment, the temperature delta is probably not huge? But at idle, the aluminium pipes will heat soak much more than the plastic pipes and heat the intake air.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by Boss330

It's not a "non issue" since aluminium DO have different heat transfer characteristics to plastic. Aluminium WILL transfer more temperature to the air inside the charge pipe. Which also means that cooling the aluminium charge pipe with dry ice will help cool the charge air more than if you did the same to the plastic pipes.

But the effect probably won't be very noticeable during higher air flow. And, if the temperature on the outside of the charge pipes is cooler than the charge air inside the pipe, then aluminium charge pipes will be beneficial to cooling the charge air. Also the delta between outside and inside temperature needs to be high enough to actually make a difference. So, during driving with air flow through the engine compartment, the temperature delta is probably not huge? But at idle, the aluminium pipes will heat soak much more than the plastic pipes and heat the intake air.

Sooo... Long Story short...

BMS and ER Charge Pipes are a-ok! And we are all okie dokie? :P

[Reach]

I agree with Railgun, for once lol. Academically, yes, aluminum will transfer ambient heat to the air better than plastic.

But if we're talking about this as a performance issue, then what matters is how it performs under boost. So now we're talking about rapidly moving pressurized air from the turbos (already hot), which is about to enter the intercooler. That air is going to be moving fast, and it's going to get cooled before entering the plenum. I say non-issue.

[Reach]

Originally Posted by Railgun

You've disagreed with me before?

I'm the type to just silently shake my head. I assume others do the same at my posts.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Reach

I agree with Railgun, for once lol. Academically, yes, aluminum will transfer ambient heat to the air better than plastic.

But if we're talking about this as a performance issue, then what matters is how it performs under boost. So now we're talking about rapidly moving pressurized air from the turbos (already hot), which is about to enter the intercooler. That air is going to be moving fast, and it's going to get cooled before entering the plenum. I say non-issue.

Fo regular use it's probably not an issue. Drag racing (since it seems a few M3/M4 owners use their car on the drag strip) could be a bit different though. Car sits at idle, waiting in line, burn out, sitting at the tree. No air flowing through the engine bay. Guess the alu charge pipes can get pretty hot under these circumstances...

There is a reason drag racers use dry ice to cool down the intake manifold/system between runs...

[GeordieMike]

Thanks for all the reply's, its seems like a good debate.

I have asked for date of their findings but haven't been able to get hold of the data.

For the record I am already running ER charge pipes.

this is more to the fact that the said garage started developing their own charge pipes but have since stopped due to insisting they lost 20hp during testing.....

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by GeordieMike

Thanks for all the reply's, its seems like a good debate.

I have asked for date of their findings but haven't been able to get hold of the data.

For the record I am already running ER charge pipes.

this is more to the fact that the said garage started developing their own charge pipes but have since stopped due to insisting they lost 20hp during testing.....

Could be a flow related issue as well...

However, dyno testing with insufficient air flow will also cause heat soak and aluminium pipes would be more susceptible to that than the std plastic pipes.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

I think like mentioned above under real world conditions there should be no issues.

Sitting in traffic even the FMIC heat soaks..

Mike

[Brasko]

I've had great results with my '00 Supercharged Steeda GT and '03 Evo 8. Both had CP's (and intake piping) in aluminum and never had issues. The Steeda made a noticable seat of the pants difference.

I'm planning on adding CP's to the F80 eventually. Just don't think the retail price & design of the current available options are worth it.

[Fast4d]

non issue

air does not stay in the tubing long enough to "heat soak"