What wheels are you using for your track setup?

[///Mobbin]

Has anyone considered these tires:
Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R - New offering and available in 275/35R18
Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R's - Only available in 265/40ZR18 (from Bob Woodman tires)

[SYT_Shadow]

The Trofeo Rs are probably at the level of Hoosiers!

[FTS]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The Trofeo Rs are probably at the level of Hoosiers!

And they need -3 to -3.5 negative camber, probably minimum.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FTS

And they need -3 to -3.5 negative camber, probably minimum.

Don't worry buddy, by this summer GC will have released plates for the new M generation

[FTS]

I am not holding my breath

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The Trofeo Rs are probably at the level of Hoosiers!

Originally Posted by FTS

And they need -3 to -3.5 negative camber, probably minimum.

I didn't realize this, will focus on other options at first then. What would be good for a first track tire set before I start adjusting the suspension, NT01's?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

I didn't realize this, will focus on other options at first then. What would be good for a first track tire set before I start adjusting the suspension, NT01's?

Something like an RS3

The point of using high performance but still street tires is so you can learn how to handle the car at the limit using much lower speeds that you'd see using rcomps

[FTS]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

I didn't realize this, will focus on other options at first then. What would be good for a first track tire set before I start adjusting the suspension, NT01's?

General consensus is to use street tires when you are a novice, and frankly I do not agree with that view at all for technical and financial reasons. Street tires have wide range of consistency in handling with relatively low grip levels, and they have low tolerance to heat build up, particularly with the temperatures that are generated on the track. So, with street tires you don't get to learn anything, because they are forgiving, and burn through them faster than track tires, or r-comps.

So my opinion is that if you are going to track, just like we all recommend you use track brake pads and fluid, use track tires. They will be durable and they teach you how to recognize grip levels quicker than street tires, and because they can endure the heat, they are safer and you won't destroy them as easily as you would street tires.

With that said, NT01s, R888s, AD08s, MPSCs, etc. all are good tires that you can ride on them to the track, do your thing on the track and come back. My favorites are the first two.

[SYT_Shadow]

FTS, have you used MPSC2s?

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

FTS, have you used MPSC2s?

I just bought a track set of MPSC2's after cording my street tires in two weekends at the track (this is on my S4). So I definitely am agreeing with your sentiments at the moment FTS!

I'll share my thoughts on these tires after I try them, I would consider them more extreme street tires but am not sure where they fall in the spectrum of trackable street tires quite yet. Based on my research I don't think they will have the same sensitivity to tire pressures that the MPSC1's were known to have. I think they'll be slightly better in the wet too. Will report back after I head to the track at the beginning of April.

I am also anxious to try the NT01's as I've heard many mention them now and they seem to have a good price point.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

FTS, have you used MPSC2s?

No I haven't, just the MPSCs. However, here is an informative review by someone that knows how to evaluate all things cars:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=24

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

I just bought a track set of MPSC2's after cording my street tires in two weekends at the track (this is on my S4). So I definitely am agreeing with your sentiments at the moment FTS!

I'll share my thoughts on these tires after I try them, I would consider them more extreme street tires but am not sure where they fall in the spectrum of trackable street tires quite yet. Based on my research I don't think they will have the same sensitivity to tire pressures that the MPSC1's were known to have. I think they'll be slightly better in the wet too. Will report back after I head to the track at the beginning of April.

I am also anxious to try the NT01's as I've heard many mention them now and they seem to have a good price point.

My approach is to pick a tire and learn that as best as I can through my own tests, data and experience. I don't race, just DEs, hence there is no point for me to try to find the best tire each year per some regulation. I believe if I know my tires, I'll be faster than people with better tires that don't understand how to get the best of them; at least that's how I am rationalizing things

NT01s are really good tires, but just like any other, you need to learn them. Have it shaved to 5/32nds (for DE longevity, 2/32nds for qualifying performance), and do a prep heat cycle, let it sit in ambient temps above 40 deg for 24 hrs, then go hard on them. I know people who have run them very strongly for over 40 heat cycles until it cords. I think they are very economical, forgiving, but not good in wet conditions or I should say worse than R888s or MPSC2s.

I used R888s for nearly 8 years, I understand them and like them a lot. Very similar to NT01s with one crucial difference: its sidewall is stiffer than NT01s, hence with camber challenged cars, they tend to work well. Also, I believe, NT01s need slightly more camber, above -2, but don't quote me on this. R888s work just fine starting from -1.7. So, for my stock car @ 19" size R888s I think are the best choice for me.

[evanescent03]

Originally Posted by FTS

No I haven't, just the MPSCs. However, here is an informative review by someone that knows how to evaluate all things cars:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=24



My approach is to pick a tire and learn that as best as I can through my own tests, data and experience. I don't race, just DEs, hence there is no point for me to try to find the best tire each year per some regulation. I believe if I know my tires, I'll be faster than people with better tires that don't understand how to get the best of them; at least that's how I am rationalizing things

NT01s are really good tires, but just like any other, you need to learn them. Have it shaved to 5/32nds (for DE longevity, 2/32nds for qualifying performance), and do a prep heat cycle, let it sit in ambient temps above 40 deg for 24 hrs, then go hard on them. I know people who have run them very strongly for over 40 heat cycles until it cords. I think they are very economical, forgiving, but not good in wet conditions or I should say worse than R888s or MPSC2s.

I used R888s for nearly 8 years, I understand them and like them a lot. Very similar to NT01s with one crucial difference: its sidewall is stiffer than NT01s, hence with camber challenged cars, they tend to work well. Also, I believe, NT01s need slightly more camber, above -2, but don't quote me on this. R888s work just fine starting from -1.7. So, for my stock car @ 19" size R888s I think are the best choice for me.

i've read your post and i'm interested in what you have to say. i've been told by instructors in the past that one big benefit to the street tires is that they will talk to you more and you can gauge better when you're getting close to losing their coopertion.

i'm hopefully getting the ec7 18x10et25 square setup very soon and wrapping with 275/35/18. i haven't seen nt01 in this tire size but the r888 is available so maybe i will try these for dry track days and stock mpss for damp/wet days (i've heard the r888 isn't great for wet, do you agree?).

you say track tires are better financially? up front cost looks about the same but with the lower treadwear rating i would think they would wear out sooner, no? also doesn't it put a bit more strain on suspension components or is that not really an issue at this level? how many track days do you get out of a set of r888s (i realize all tracks will wear tires differently...)


thanks for your input!

[FTS]

Great questions evanescent03.

I do agree with your instructors, street tires howl a lot more than r-comps and that is not a bad thing. However, because the grip levels stay relatively consistent across a much wider range of slip angles, when the tires start howling the feel of grip from the driver perspective does not change much, and drivers keep generating slip angles until grip is gradually lost, but by that time, inexperienced drivers have already overheated the tires as feeling the heat is much more difficult. So, after few laps and dozens of corners of pushing tires in this manner, driver realizes that they have chunked the tires to a point of no return. To illustrate this I shamelessly took a picture of the slip angles vs. grip chart from Carol Smith's book, Tune To Win.

R-comps give a little less audible warnings, although R888s are also audible near their limit, but not as much as street tires. For this reason I do not like loud exhausts, so I can actually hear the tires, which is one additional feedback point from the vehicle, the exhaust does nothing for me

R888s at full thread I think are barely acceptable under moderate rain, not good in heavy rain, but pretty good on a damp track. I have not used NT01s in the rain, but I hear they are worse than R888s.

There are NT01s in the size you are looking for: http://www.nittotire.com/race-tires/...d-course-tire/

Tread wear rating of street tires go out the window when used on track. Once you exceed the operating temp of the tire, which is a sure thing to happen on track with street tires, tread wear rating is meaningless. I consistently used R888s up to 48-52 heat cycles with acceptable performance drop for my purposes. So, that would mean about 16-17 days or 5-6 events or roughly 1,000 track miles. To me that is great value. Although I have to mention that experience was with cars that were 400 to 500 lbs lighter than our F8x, the M4 is the heaviest car I will ever use on track, so I am sure I will have to adapt many things.

Higher grip tires do put more stress on the chassis and suspension components; however, r-comps don't generate enough grip to be harmful IMO to present mechanical issues. Racing tires, Hoosiers for example, or slicks put considerably more stress at a level that I don't use them on street based cars, not even on Porsche GTs. Even Porsche came out and said that racing slicks on their street-based GT cars are highly discouraged, that says a lot to me coming from their GT brand.

I hope this is helpful.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by FTS

No I haven't, just the MPSCs. However, here is an informative review by someone that knows how to evaluate all things cars:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=24



My approach is to pick a tire and learn that as best as I can through my own tests, data and experience. I don't race, just DEs, hence there is no point for me to try to find the best tire each year per some regulation. I believe if I know my tires, I'll be faster than people with better tires that don't understand how to get the best of them; at least that's how I am rationalizing things

NT01s are really good tires, but just like any other, you need to learn them. Have it shaved to 5/32nds (for DE longevity, 2/32nds for qualifying performance), and do a prep heat cycle, let it sit in ambient temps above 40 deg for 24 hrs, then go hard on them. I know people who have run them very strongly for over 40 heat cycles until it cords. I think they are very economical, forgiving, but not good in wet conditions or I should say worse than R888s or MPSC2s.

I used R888s for nearly 8 years, I understand them and like them a lot. Very similar to NT01s with one crucial difference: its sidewall is stiffer than NT01s, hence with camber challenged cars, they tend to work well. Also, I believe, NT01s need slightly more camber, above -2, but don't quote me on this. R888s work just fine starting from -1.7. So, for my stock car @ 19" size R888s I think are the best choice for me.

One of the big advantages of the NT01 is that they are pretty much immune to heat cyclying. They wear out before they heat cycle out. Actually, I have run my best laps with corded tires. So there is absolutely no need to have them heat cycled before running them at the track. They really are a no hassle tire.

Further, they have pretty large thread blocks to start with and therefore don't see much thread deformation at full thread. I don't recommend shaving them if longer life is the goal. If you are after lap times (competitive event) then yes. But for longer life, keep the full thread. Once the NT01 are half worn, they loose their thread block and get grippier (hence the benefit of shaving). At that point you can flip them inside out to balance wear and extend their life even further.

I can back up your comment about them liking camber, I used to run -2.8 front and -1.8 rear on my E92. I also agree that they are not good in the rain. They remain grippy on a damp track, but as soon as there is the slightest accumulation, they lose their grip.

I used to love the Toyo RA1 on my ol' GTi. The NT01 feels like a RA1 for heavier cars with a stiffer carcass and bigger thread blocks.

[JNoSol]

Apex EC-7 18x10 ET33 square with 10mm front is what EAS running, it looks the best. ET25 square will be fine in front, but it sticks out on back. You don't need more than 275 for the track. TC Kline has Apex EC-7 18x10 squared with 275 tires, he smokes GTR and McLaren on the track with the M4 (stock engine).

Never run staggered or 19s if you can avoid it. Tires cost will eat you alive. Plus you can't rotate a staggered setup.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

Apex EC-7 18x10 ET33 square with 10mm front is what EAS running, it looks the best. ET25 square will be fine in front, but it sticks out on back. You don't need more than 275 for the track. TC Kline has Apex EC-7 18x10 squared with 275 tires, he smokes GTR and McLaren on the track with the M4 (stock engine).

Never run staggered or 19s if you can avoid it. Tires cost will eat you alive. Plus you can't rotate a staggered setup.

I am not sure how you arrived to the conclusion that 275 is good enough, but I think that would significantly limit traction. TC Kline even said that staggered setup is better with 305 rears.

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by FTS

I am not sure how you arrived to the conclusion that 275 is good enough, but I think that would significantly limit traction. TC Kline even said that staggered setup is better with 305 rears.

Most of the E90/92 M3 guys run 285 squared on the track (there's not enough F80/82 guys tracking to reference), slight rubbing on the front fender well for the E90/92 M3. Going from 275 to 285 isn't going to be noticeable, other than your bank account (285 costs more and less options to choose from) unless you're experience as TC.

As for TC, he did say he would prefer staggered. That's great for him, but I don't want to tow a trailer nor do I have the funds for a supporting vehicle to haul 4 set of wheels/tires to the track. If you do go staggered, 275 front / 295 should be good. 10.5" in the rear of course.

[FTS]

Yes I agree with you that for economic reasons square makes a lot of sense, but not for traction. I have 10" and 11" wheels, and i am testing the 265/325 set, we'll see how much they will rub and understeer.

I am not going to carry wheels either, too much work and expense as you say, just putting tires and driving on them

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by FTS

Yes I agree with you that for economic reasons square makes a lot of sense, but not for traction. I have 10" and 11" wheels, and i am testing the 265/325 set, we'll see how much they will rub and understeer.

I am not going to carry wheels either, too much work and expense as you say, just putting tires and driving on them

I'm also arriving at the conclusion to not carry wheels, at least not for now. Just put on my track set and drive there.

Do you have a sense of what you'll do when it get's wet though? My plan is to dial it back to 2/10ths and gradually increase until I'm sliding around a bit. I've driven on the track in the rain a few times, but only on somewhat standard street tires, I did get to where even the streets were sliding about and I think it was a good learning experience both times.

I'll be taking my S4 on new Pilot Sport Cup 2's out in a few weeks, excited to try them out.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

I'm also arriving at the conclusion to not carry wheels, at least not for now. Just put on my track set and drive there.

Do you have a sense of what you'll do when it get's wet though? My plan is to dial it back to 2/10ths and gradually increase until I'm sliding around a bit. I've driven on the track in the rain a few times, but only on somewhat standard street tires, I did get to where even the streets were sliding about and I think it was a good learning experience both times.

I'll be taking my S4 on new Pilot Sport Cup 2's out in a few weeks, excited to try them out.

Depending on the rain, I'd stay off the track I once drove trying to get to the track on R888s under heavy downpour while I had them in reverse direction, worst possible combination, I was able to sustain 35-40 mph while wipers on full speed, but it eventually got a little scary and stopped at a gas station for about 30 miins.

Something to consider: this past weekend we had two 991 GT3s and a new Z06 at the track and all had MPSC2s on from factory. The thread depth was significantly less on the Z06 (had about 2K mi. on it) than on 991s. I guess the N-spec tires have deeper threads, which the owners attested that they did not have issues similar to MPSC v1s of past under rain. The Z06 driver never drove in the rain, but did not look like I would even attempt to drive under any rain

[heckyeahbro69]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

Most of the E90/92 M3 guys run 285 squared on the track (there's not enough F80/82 guys tracking to reference), slight rubbing on the front fender well for the E90/92 M3. Going from 275 to 285 isn't going to be noticeable, other than your bank account (285 costs more and less options to choose from) unless you're experience as TC.

As for TC, he did say he would prefer staggered. That's great for him, but I don't want to tow a trailer nor do I have the funds for a supporting vehicle to haul 4 set of wheels/tires to the track. If you do go staggered, 275 front / 295 should be good. 10.5" in the rear of course.

I fit my track wheels, a jack, tools, parts and 2 small suit cases in my m4. It was literally completely full but it all got in there. I did have to remove the rear seats but thats a 5 minute job.

nvm just re read your post.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by heckyeahbro69

I fit my track wheels, a jack, tools, parts and 2 small suit cases in my m4. It was literally completely full but it all got in there. I did have to remove the rear seats but thats a 5 minute job.

nvm just re read your post.

In my E92, I was able to fit all 4 track wheels across on the back seat. Suitcase would sit on the floor behind the passenger seat, helmet behind the driver's seat. Tool box, compressed air tank, spare tire (when needed), cooler, jack, 2 garden seats all fit in the trunk and the wife (when she joins me) on the front passenger seat .

I certainly hope to achieve the same with the M4