Carbon Ceramic Brake Thread

[rhyary]

Hey F80 guys,
I know that the CCB is an option for the F8x platform.

I am interested to hear from you about your experience driving and braking using CCB.

Let's have a comprehensive and collective info on using the technology.

There are many reason why not selecting the option, or selecting the option and not using it.

Let's hear from drivers that chose to use these brakes.

I'll start.
I have been using Brembo CCBs on my E92 M3 for close to 5 years. I mostly enjoy the CCB for the consistency during an HPDE day. I once replaced the front with cast iron Girodisk and stock calipers with Pagid RSL29 pads and came of the track with smoking brakes. An experience I did not have to think about using CCB.

[Blu.f80]

Removing my stock CCB's, for oem brembos, as none of the 18" wheels fit with ccb's.
Will be having a shop do the swap this weekend, and will have ccb's for sale

[rhyary]

Important point to consider if the CCB forces a 19" wheel decision.

[NYG]

I never used them on the F8x but they're a terrible option for hard use on a track unless you enjoy spending ridiculous money on consumables.

Metallic race pads will out perform CCB as long as you pay attention to temperatures. They'll also cost peanuts to replace discs (which will last longer) and pads.

[F80RN]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Important point to consider if the CCB forces a 19" wheel decision.

My understanding is they'll likely force a 20" wheel, as there's only a handful that fit over 19" (Apex, HRE, BBS FI-R) are the ones that come to mind

[rhyary]

my 19" clear the Brembo CCM-R.
Is the F80 CCB larger than 380 on the front?

CCB will outlast cast iron rotors by a large factor. Almost to a point that it can achieve parity with cast iron.

it makes a difference if it is CCB or CCM. The CCB like the one that comes on the the F80 has a friction layer that consume largely the brake pads. over time that friction layer can be replaced with a new Silicate Carbide friction layer and restore the rotor to as new condition.


Unfortunately my Brembo CCM-R is the type that the friction layer is the same as the rotor (Carbon Ceramic Matrix) and indeed is consumed once heated to 450* Celsius. The carbon in the friction layer is oxidized at those temps.

This winter I am sending them to be refurbished with the SiC friction layer.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by rhyary

my 19" clear the Brembo CCM-R.
Is the F80 CCB larger than 380 on the front?

CCB will outlast cast iron rotors by a large factor. Almost to a point that it can achieve parity with cast iron.

it makes a difference if it is CCB or CCM. The CCB like the one that comes on the the F80 has a friction layer that consume largely the brake pads. over time that friction layer can be replaced with a new Silicate Carbide friction layer and restore the rotor to as new condition.


Unfortunately my Brembo CCM-R is the type that the friction layer is the same as the rotor (Carbon Ceramic Matrix) and indeed is consumed once heated to 450* Celsius. The carbon in the friction layer is oxidized at those temps.

This winter I am sending them to be refurbished with the SiC friction layer.

Not true, they operate at ridiculous temperatures compared to iron rotors and oxidize in only a few track days. You either resurface or replace them at that point. That's why iron disc + metallic pads are used almost exclusively in all professional racing. Don't get me wrong, they're not bad but they're just a waste of money for track days. They're perfect if you don't pump insane heat into them, which is impossible on the track. In no scenario on earth will you ever even come close to getting a fraction of the performance value compared to iron.

All production car CCBs are a carbon ceramic matrix.

Only Formula 1 cars have carbon/carbon brakes which are a whole different animal.

[F80RN]

Originally Posted by rhyary

my 19" clear the Brembo CCM-R.
Is the F80 CCB larger than 380 on the front?

CCB will outlast cast iron rotors by a large factor. Almost to a point that it can achieve parity with cast iron.

it makes a difference if it is CCB or CCM. The CCB like the one that comes on the the F80 has a friction layer that consume largely the brake pads. over time that friction layer can be replaced with a new Silicate Carbide friction layer and restore the rotor to as new condition.


Unfortunately my Brembo CCM-R is the type that the friction layer is the same as the rotor (Carbon Ceramic Matrix) and indeed is consumed once heated to 450* Celsius. The carbon in the friction layer is oxidized at those temps.

This winter I am sending them to be refurbished with the SiC friction layer.

I believe the OEM CCB rotor is 400mm

[RSXDC5]

CCB owner here for 8yrs, let's set some things straight because there is a need:

CCB are fantastic on the street
No brake dust and always clean wheels
Sexy calipers front and rear
1/2 weight rotors vs steel rotors
6 piston front and 4 piston rears match this chassis weight well

Front CCB rotors can handle 3-7 fast paced track days before they are fried, depending on the track
Rear CCB rotors can handle about 15-25 fast paced track days before they are fried, depending on the track
^^ this assumes DSC is OFF while on track

GiroDisc makes Ti brake pad shields to increase temp ceiling of the CCB system w/ no downsides.

Use Castrol SRF for its high temp ceiling

CCB calipers themselves can take about any abuse you can throw at them w/ minimal pad taper, but are heavy calipers overall

Ideally, for track days, one would simply swap to steel Girodisc or similar racing rotors and pads of your choice w/ a high temp ceiling and a high coefficient of friction (needed to match the expected/programmed friction of a CCB braking system)

400mm front and 380mm rear
Min of 19" wheels required

[melanthius]

I mostly see CCB installed on cars that are marketed towards customers who "might" track their car, and have $$$ to drop on the vehicle purchase. They are great for looks, bragging rights, non-corrosive brake dust, and they tend to impress people who know "some stuff" about cars. For example - enthusiasts who review cars but probably don't regularly track their own car. CCBs tend to get great reviews from youtubers and such.

I haven't driven on any CCB before so I couldn't comment from experience on feel or performance.

Then I go to actual track days and I almost exclusively see iron brakes. I go on forums and I see hardcore HPDE guys and they almost exclusively run iron brakes. I see fully race prepped cars and they are using exclusively iron brakes. There is a reason for that.

There will often be some rich dudes driving a brand new Ferrari, Porsche, or BMW with CCB ... nothing wrong with that if you have the money. It's a lot easier than messing around with switching pads all the time.

[FrankMstein]

As for lasting only a few track days...there is someone on here has 8000+ *TRACK* miles on one set of rotors. That is a few more than 3-7 days. He recently wore them out this year and is going Girodisk.

The confidence level is not there for track for me. I am old and used to PFC for the last 20+ years and expecting bite when it is not there. Switching to iron...

[RSXDC5]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

As for lasting only a few track days...there is someone on here has 8000+ *TRACK* miles on one set of rotors. That is a few more than 3-7 days. He recently wore them out this year and is going Girodisk.

The confidence level is not there for track for me. I am old and used to PFC for the last 20+ years and expecting bite when it is not there. Switching to iron...

8000+ track miles lololololololol

[FrankMstein]

The name is Clayton Banka from Michigan. Spends a lot of time at Gingerman and Grattan. So yeah...it what he says.

[rhyary]

This is a fantastic feedback.
It is kind of info and discussion I was looking for.

In the last 5 years I have been doing about 30 trackdays a year. I am not easy on my brakes as I constantly trying to improve my driving.

Basically I have 60,000 miles on the Brembo CCM brakes. Mostly track miles and driving to and from the track.

I consumed about 4 front pad sets, and one set on the rear per season.

So far I have used one rotor set on the rear and 2 rotor sets on the front. I don't believe an cast Iron rotors can do that. On the E92 you have to get after market CCM.

There are many reasons why racing series do not use ceramic type rotors, and many time the reasons are not what's better. On this forum if we discuss track driving, we are talking HPDE which has no rules. Bring what ever car, modify what ever you want.

There are three kinds of ceramic type rotors.
Carbon-Carbon - not practical for road usage - are used on Formula 1 car and landing gear of airplanes.

Carbon Ceramic Matrix - used for the base structure of the rotor - and in this regards all ceramic rotors are CCM rotors.

CCM - some rotors are entirely made from CCM (Ferrari) including the friction layer. The CCM is great but consumed by heat. Great for street, but not durable for track usage

CCB - This is what Porsche uses. The rotor is still CCM, but the friction layer is SiC which is Very hard and either has not carbon, or very little carbon. This type of friction layer does not burned up (oxidize) on the track but relay on the brake pads to get consumed. With time, even that layer gets to be used but not in 4-5 trackdays.

I am still learning and collecting info on the technology and if anyone has better info, please share with the rest of us.

If anything I said is inaccurate, don't attack, educate. as I know more I will share.

[RSXDC5]

Originally Posted by rhyary

This is a fantastic feedback.
It is kind of info and discussion I was looking for.

In the last 5 years I have been doing about 30 trackdays a year. I am not easy on my brakes as I constantly trying to improve my driving.

Basically I have 60,000 miles on the Brembo CCM brakes. Mostly track miles and driving to and from the track.

I consumed about 4 front pad sets, and one set on the rear per season.

So far I have used one rotor set on the rear and 2 rotor sets on the front. I don't believe an cast Iron rotors can do that. On the E92 you have to get after market CCM.

There are many reasons why racing series do not use ceramic type rotors, and many time the reasons are not what's better. On this forum if we discuss track driving, we are talking HPDE which has no rules. Bring what ever car, modify what ever you want.

There are three kinds of ceramic type rotors.
Carbon-Carbon - not practical for road usage - are used on Formula 1 car and landing gear of airplanes.

Carbon Ceramic Matrix - used for the base structure of the rotor - and in this regards all ceramic rotors are CCM rotors.

CCM - some rotors are entirely made from CCM (Ferrari) including the friction layer. The CCM is great but consumed by heat. Great for street, but not durable for track usage

CCB - This is what Porsche uses. The rotor is still CCM, but the friction layer is SiC which is Very hard and either has not carbon, or very little carbon. This type of friction layer does not burned up (oxidize) on the track but relay on the brake pads to get consumed. With time, even that layer gets to be used but not in 4-5 trackdays.

I am still learning and collecting info on the technology and if anyone has better info, please share with the rest of us.

If anything I said is inaccurate, don't attack, educate. as I know more I will share.

Porsche CCB vs F8x CCB are not exactly the same, the Porsche system has a more updated/durable CCB design vs the F8x. You will have to dig for additional details beyond that ^^

[RSXDC5]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

The name is Clayton Banka from Michigan. Spends a lot of time at Gingerman and Grattan. So yeah...it what he says.

Do you understand how that data point is SO far outside the norm that it is highly suspect?

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by RSXDC5

Do you understand how that data point is SO far outside the norm that it is highly suspect?

Fully, which is why I decided to keep mine at one point. Now I am also looking to sell. The ad has been up for 6 months. I also understand that the crank hub failure in the US is SO far outside the norm of the rest of the world. First, If I made the money to run through and test the durability of a set of CCB rotors, I would. Second, if I sold crank hubs and rotors I would push them too. Many people are scared of them for many reasons. I, for one, do not like the feel and do not trust CCB into a corner as much as iron.

[RSXDC5]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

Fully, which is why I decided to keep mine at one point. Now I am also looking to sell. The ad has been up for 6 months. I also understand that the crank hub failure in the US is SO far outside the norm of the rest of the world. First, If I made the money to run through and test the durability of a set of CCB rotors, I would. Second, if I sold crank hubs and rotors I would push them too. Many people are scared of them for many reasons. I, for one, do not like the feel and do not trust CCB into a corner as much as iron.

I don't sell crankhubs or rotors though!

Ya you shouldn't be tracking with front CCB, period. It's not a smart way to use up the life of the CCB rotors. That said, it is possible to keep the CCB rears and do a steel rotor on fronts, as the rear CCB last a while on track with dsc off.

When I ran a split iron(front)/CCB(rear) setup on track for a bit, the car was phenomenal, even when pushed to the max as I like to do (temp sweet spot and max pace), they refused to falter as I matched pace w/ a 991.1 gt3rs weissach driven by a Pro driver. Just food for thought.

Also, technically, a CCB pedal feel is firmer than iron feel. On track though, at ultra high temps, this can change.

[rhyary]

Both Porsche and BMW use CCB rotors made by Brembo SGL. However, the F80 uses CCM rotors and CCB friction layer from 2017 and there have been improvements since those were made.

Specifically the wear layer is better. Hypothetically speaking, if someone bonded a friction layer from 2022 technology to the rotor of the F80 it would last and perform like a 2022 CCB.

This is what I plan to do with my CCM-R rotors if I need to resurface them. The CCM-R use even older technology but lasted more than 30 trackdays.

As it stands, and given the information collected so far, I totally understand the reluctance to use CCB on HPDE day. But man…. coming off the track and not having smoking brakes that light dry grass on fire if you park off the tarmac can be nice.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by RSXDC5

I don't sell crankhubs or rotors though!

Ya you shouldn't be tracking with front CCB, period. It's not a smart way to use up the life of the CCB rotors. That said, it is possible to keep the CCB rears and do a steel rotor on fronts, as the rear CCB last a while on track with dsc off.

When I ran a split iron(front)/CCB(rear) setup on track for a bit, the car was phenomenal, even when pushed to the max as I like to do (temp sweet spot and max pace), they refused to falter as I matched pace w/ a 991.1 gt3rs weissach driven by a Pro driver. Just food for thought.

Also, technically, a CCB pedal feel is firmer than iron feel. On track though, at ultra high temps, this can change.

It does feel firmer and the super linear mu is just not what I'm used to. I'm used to friction increasing with heat. Strange but it's what I'm used to. I can't afford to replace these rotors. I considered buying another set of used front CCB rotors, there just isn't a good supply of them now.

I have temp strips on the calipers, temp paint on the rotors and pads, and they barely saw any heat but ambient was under 55F. At 75F ambient the front saw about max heat I found to be acceptable coming off Charlotte banking and it was uncomfortable. I need brake ducts for the front.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Both Porsche and BMW use CCB rotors made by Brembo SGL. However, the F80 uses CCM rotors and CCB friction layer from 2017 and there have been improvements since those were made.

Specifically the wear layer is better. Hypothetically speaking, if someone bonded a friction layer from 2022 technology to the rotor of the F80 it would last and perform like a 2022 CCB.

This is what I plan to do with my CCM-R rotors if I need to resurface them. The CCM-R use even older technology but lasted more than 30 trackdays.

What???

[NYG]

rhyary trust us.

If you want to TRACK your vehicle, you need to do an iron rotor + metallic race pad conversion.

If it's a daily vehicle that you may take once a year to the track and not push it to 100% then the carbon ceramics will be ok.

The F8x is not a platform that handles brake heat well from the factory so CCBs will get annihilated faster than normal and they're very expensive to replace.