Track - Staggered or Square?

[M3Tooner]

Originally Posted by Kung Fu English

Wow that's good to hear but also disappointing. I have a square 200 TW setup and turn in is great but it spins on exit a lot. I was pretty well sold on going to nt01 stagger on my next set but maybe not if it's going to push like crazy and wear the edges like I already do. I don't love how the square setup kind of upsets the balance of over/understeer. It definitely reduces understeer but changes the relative grip front to rear so even though there is way more grip total than OEM it will spin easier and it changes the dynamics.

I'm not real interested in putting in camber plates but I might. I worry about increased harshness. Do plates just increase noise or do they worsen wide quality too?

Don't give up on your square setup yet. what size tires do you run? All the really fast guys in my track group run square setups on their cars, mostly C5 Corvettes and a few older Mustangs. That's the first thing they asked me, why I chose to run a staggered setup and scratching their heads, LOL.

But yeah I think regardless of square or staggered, there is no getting around not using camber plates if you are an intermediate and above driver. It's just too difficult to drive slowly and managing tires with a car this capable, what's the point. Unless you have a lot of money to burn buying front tires at the rate of twice as fast as guys with more camber. I just placed my order today.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Kung Fu English

Wow that's good to hear but also disappointing. I have a square 200 TW setup and turn in is great but it spins on exit a lot. I was pretty well sold on going to nt01 stagger on my next set but maybe not if it's going to push like crazy and wear the edges like I already do. I don't love how the square setup kind of upsets the balance of over/understeer. It definitely reduces understeer but changes the relative grip front to rear so even though there is way more grip total than OEM it will spin easier and it changes the dynamics.

I'm not real interested in putting in camber plates but I might. I worry about increased harshness. Do plates just increase noise or do they worsen wide quality too?

Ir you plan on going with R-comps, camber plates are a must, whereas you go staggerd or square. The extra grip of the more aggresive compound will increase the deflection in the suspension bushing and the tire will have more roll over. R-comp tire are designed to run with more camber.

[Kung Fu English]

Originally Posted by M3Tooner

Don't give up on your square setup yet. what size tires do you run? All the really fast guys in my track group run square setups on their cars, mostly C5 Corvettes and a few older Mustangs. That's the first thing they asked me, why I chose to run a staggered setup and scratching their heads, LOL.

But yeah I think regardless of square or staggered, there is no getting around not using camber plates if you are an intermediate and above driver. It's just too difficult to drive slowly and managing tires with a car this capable, what's the point. Unless you have a lot of money to burn buying front tires at the rate of twice as fast as guys with more camber. I just placed my order today.

I won't give up yet for sure. I just got them lol. They are 275/35/18s of course. All the local guys that are much better at autox than me and more experienced with track days said to stay square because stagger "will just induce understeer". I just have to get used to them.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Ir you plan on going with R-comps, camber plates are a must, whereas you go staggerd or square. The extra grip of the more aggresive compound will increase the deflection in the suspension bushing and the tire will have more roll over. R-comp tire are designed to run with more camber.

That's fair enough. Won't be going to R comps until at least the next set so I've some time to decide. Do they make the ride harsher or just noisier?

[scottn2retro]

We've been running staggered for a while and at our last race at Thunderhill, Ralph took her out for a few laps and said the car handled great.

So I think we've settled on a staggered setup.

[Benzima]

Applies to M2 as well I guess?

(Newbie here)

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Benzima

Applies to M2 as well I guess?

(Newbie here)

Not really.

There is a significant difference in power and torque between the M2 and M3/4, so there is probably no need for wide 305 rears on the M2. You might be better off with a square setup on the M2.

[Benzima]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Not really.

There is a significant difference in power and torque between the M2 and M3/4, so there is probably no need for wide 305 rears on the M2. You might be better off with a square setup on the M2.

I will try stock for my first year. I wasn't going for 305 in the rear.
I wanted to know if I am better off with the OEM staggered set-up (245/265) considering I am not capable of putting all the power on the car on the track yet with the M2.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Benzima

I will try stock for my first year. I wasn't going for 305 in the rear.
I wanted to know if I am better off with the OEM staggered set-up (245/265) considering I am not capable of putting all the power on the car on the track yet with the M2.

I am not sure I follow your statement. If you want to go "stock", it implicitly means going with a staggered setup.

I am not sure how much of the thread you read, but it is about staggered or square track setup, meaning mainly focused on R-comp tires. It is not really about street tires vs R-comps.

If you want to go with the stock setup, then staggered is perfectly fine. It is how BMW designed it.

I personally usually prefer square for a dedicated track setup because it allows to better optimize tire wear through rotations. I ran a square setup for my first track season with the M4, but found I could not fully leverage the strong mid range power of the S55 due to insufficient rear grip, hence why I eventually went staggered.

[Benzima]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am not sure I follow your statement. If you want to go "stock", it implicitly means going with a staggered setup.

I am not sure how much of the thread you read, but it is about staggered or square track setup, meaning mainly focused on R-comp tires. It is not really about street tires vs R-comps.

If you want to go with the stock setup, then staggered is perfectly fine. It is how BMW designed it.

I personally usually prefer square for a dedicated track setup because it allows to better optimize tire wear through rotations. I ran a square setup for my first track season with the M4, but found I could not fully leverage the strong mid range power of the S55 due to insufficient rear grip, hence why I eventually went staggered.

Sorry I was unclear.

I will run OEM tires with staggered wheels this summer.

I wanted know if it would be better to run staggered or square with R tire on the M2. From the thread I read (note: I didn't understand all of it LOL), I must have camber plates to run R tire for both configuration. Nonetheless, I will attend the technical seminars offered in my area.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Benzima

Sorry I was unclear.

I will run OEM tires with staggered wheels this summer.

I wanted know if it would be better to run staggered or square with R tire on the M2. From the thread I read (note: I didn't understand all of it LOL), I must have camber plates to run R tire for both configuration. Nonetheless, I will attend the technical seminars offered in my area.

So to summarize:

Running stock setup is perfectly fine and actually recommended for your first times on track.

When you do go with a dedicated r-comp track setup, I would recommend a square setup for the M2.

I guess I will likely see you at the "technical seminar"

[Lojs]

Originally Posted by Benzima

Sorry I was unclear.

I will run OEM tires with staggered wheels this summer.

I wanted know if it would be better to run staggered or square with R tire on the M2. From the thread I read (note: I didn't understand all of it LOL), I must have camber plates to run R tire for both configuration. Nonetheless, I will attend the technical seminars offered in my area.

Camber plates are not a must in any of the setups, they have nothing to do with either running square or R compounds. They just improve front axle grip and prolong front tire life - on track (but also have some downsides as well).
I run square R compound with stock suspension and it is fine.

[Benzima]

Originally Posted by Lojs

Camber plates are not a must in any of the setups, they have nothing to do with either running square or R compounds. They just improve front axle grip and prolong front tire life - on track (but also have some downsides as well).
I run square R compound with stock suspension and it is fine.

Thanks! Looking forward to start tracking my car next year. I guess I still need to learn a lot and improve my driving skills

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Benzima

Thanks! Looking forward to start tracking my car next year. I guess I still need to learn a lot and improve my driving skills

I have to disagree with Lojs. Camber plates and R-comp tires are definitely related.

For me, the main benefit of camber plates is to even out front tire wear at the track. All my ///Ms this far (E46/E92/F82) excessively wore out the front outside shoulders when running on track in stock form. They all needed camber plates to fix this. With the high loads generated on track, there is more deflection in the suspension components (mainly the bushings) and in the tire structure causing the tire to “roll over” and work the outer shoulder harder. Running R-comps exacerbates the situation because, since they generate significantly more grip, they increase the loading on the suspension which translates in even more deflection. Further, R-comps are specifically designed to run with higher camber than street tires.

The first season tracking my M4 in 2015, I did not have camber plates because none were available on the market. I would destroy my NT01 in 3-4 track days. Now with camber plates, I get 6-8 track days out of the front tires. Big difference.

The downside of camber plates is mostly about slightly more NVH. Further, increased front camber can yield to faster inner shoulder wear when driving on the street.

When starting out with street tires as a track newbie, you most likely will not need camber plates. You will not be pushing the car enough. As you gain speed, you will entually start to see increased outer shoulder wear, that is the indication that you need to start considering camber plates. Once you go to R-comp, camber plates need to be seriously considered, otherwise you will be spending a fortune on tires.

[Lojs]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I have to disagree with Lojs. Camber plates and R-comp tires are definitely related.

For me, the main benefit of camber plates is to even out front tire wear at the track. All my ///Ms this far (E46/E92/F82) excessively wore out the front outside shoulders when running on track in stock form. They all needed camber plates to fix this. With the high loads generated on track, there is more deflection in the suspension components (mainly the bushings) and in the tire structure causing the tire to “roll over” and work the outer shoulder harder. Running R-comps exacerbates the situation because, since they generate significantly more grip, they increase the loading on the suspension which translates in even more deflection. Further, R-comps are specifically designed to run with higher camber than street tires.

The first season tracking my M4 in 2015, I did not have camber plates because none were available on the market. I would destroy my NT01 in 3-4 track days. Now with camber plates, I get 6-8 track days out of the front tires. Big difference.

The downside of camber plates is mostly about slightly more NVH. Further, increased front camber can yield to faster inner shoulder wear when driving on the street.

When starting out with street tires as a track newbie, you most likely will not need camber plates. You will not be pushing the car enough. As you gain speed, you will entually start to see increased outer shoulder wear, that is the indication that you need to start considering camber plates. Once you go to R-comp, camber plates need to be seriously considered, otherwise you will be spending a fortune on tires.

I understand what you mean with deflection and it being higher on R-comps, in theory it makes total sense to me.
But, interestingly, I have quite the opposite experience: stock tires are so bad at very high temperatures you can cord the outside shoulder in one day if you drive hard. When I switched to Michelin Sport Cup (1) tires they lasted like 10 track days because the compound was more sustainable at high operating temps (to be fair I was also rotating them occasionally). So while the deflection might be more, the benefit of running proper track tires, in my opinion outweighs it even without camber plates.
As I said, I have no experience with camber plates. My understanding is it will benefit all types of tires and also both square and staggered setups. However I would be surprised if somebody went the trouble to install and live with camber plates and still track on street tires.

Bottom line, I just cant agree it is a MUST on R-comps, at least not on square setups where you rotate. I'd say they are recommended, assuming you are a track rat and understand the downsides.

[97supratt]

Originally Posted by M3Tooner

Don't give up on your square setup yet. what size tires do you run? All the really fast guys in my track group run square setups on their cars, mostly C5 Corvettes and a few older Mustangs. That's the first thing they asked me, why I chose to run a staggered setup and scratching their heads, LOL.

But yeah I think regardless of square or staggered, there is no getting around not using camber plates if you are an intermediate and above driver. It's just too difficult to drive slowly and managing tires with a car this capable, what's the point. Unless you have a lot of money to burn buying front tires at the rate of twice as fast as guys with more camber. I just placed my order today.

Funny you should say that. I ran a square setup on my C5 Z06 and it handled like a dream on the track until I boiled my power steering fluid. haha

I switched to amsoil racing power steering fluid and hit the track thereafter. Square setups are amazing for the cars that work with them. I wouldn't do a square setup on a p-car unless it has widened fenders. Same goes for a bmw. I've seen multiple E36's/E46's with widened fenders with square setups but I haven't seen F80's yet.

[AY64]

This is what the tire wear on my car looked like on stock suspension. Planning on a square set up for next year, with supporting suspension of course.

[YMB_M3]

Staggered, and this is coming from a guy with a square set up

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by YMB_M3

Staggered, and this is coming from a guy with a square set up

This guy gets it.

[scottn2retro]

Originally Posted by YMB_M3

Staggered, and this is coming from a guy with a square set up

The problem we found with a square setup is when you put enough rubber on the back for the power, the car is working too hard to turn that much rubber up front.

[M-Pilot]

Haven't tried square setup but staggered 275/305 NT01s are amazing.

[rich8566]

Originally Posted by AY64

This is what the tire wear on my car looked like on stock suspension. Planning on a square set up for next year, with supporting suspension of course.

Here's my tire wear with MPSS on a stock 235i. Once I went square with RS3's I never looked back.

[97supratt]

Originally Posted by rich8566

Here's my tire wear with MPSS on a stock 235i. Once I went square with RS3's I never looked back.

Did you check your tire pressures? The rs3 is a much stiffer sidewall tire, has nothing to do with stagger or square.