MRG Titanium studs/ nuts?

[washm3]

Hi, I was debating on picking up a set however am reading a bit more into titanium studs/nuts. I know function wise, you won't save much on weight, but I do think these are the most aesthetically pleasing lug nuts currently on the market.

Of all the threads I've been reading on titanium studs/nuts - I am seeing that most if not all the cases of the studs seizing/breaking off the hub, appears to have been from user error? Does anyone have more info regarding the MRG setup, reliability, issues, etc.

[Lee808]

Just bought a set. I could only find one case where the studs seized into the hub. Seems like MRG took care of the issue immediately. Seeing how many people purchased them (spent days searching he forums and internet, I think it's safe to say that you (and i ) should be ok. If not I would think that you would hear a lot more problems in the forums.

I think justifying price is the major concern.

Are They overkill? Most definitely...but we could all be driving Toyota corollas and not buying 10k wheels either...

My set is due in soon. I'll be sure to post reviews after.

I'm interested to see what owners who actually bought the studs say.

[tom @ eas]

Saw titanium studs in action firsthand at Eurotuner GP on the drag strip, the photographer was quick on the trigger:





link: http://www.superstreetonline.com/eve...prix/#photo-25

The wheel almost made the 1/4 mile, the workers had to chase it down. There was significant damage on the rear fender and the owner is lucky this didn't happen at high speed on the road course.

Don't tinker with safety.

[x.shell]

There are a couple of important things to address when it comes to titanium fasteners.

The first and foremost is the "titanium is stronger than steel" argument. This idea has been attached to the MRG stud conversion kits in threads and it's very misleading. Yes, it is true that titanium is stronger than steel when comparing them at the same weight. But it is not true when it comes to strength by volume. When comparing stud vs stud, the titanium one will have a quicker failure rate compared to steel because, remember, titanium is only stronger than steel at it's equal weight. The tensile properties of titanium is also more brittle compared to steel. For this reason alone, titanium is far from ideal as a fastener.

The second thing that you have to know about titanium is that it doesn't play well with other metals. Titanium has a high rate of galling (seizing) when it comes into high pressure contact with other metals. While zinc coated steel will rarely gall.

I have a set of MRG titanium studs. They are beautifully machined. However, one of my bolts ended up seizing despite using anti-seize.

By this time I had researched about titanium fasteners on motorsport applications and came to the conclusion that I did not want risk it. So I ordered a set of steel zinc coated studs + a set of Project Kits R40 nuts and have been extremely happy with them.

MRG heavily promoted their stud conversions on threads all across the different Bimmerpost forums. I ordered a set myself and contributed to the thread. After many batches of orders were fulfilled, some more knowledgeable people started calling out about cons pertaining to titanium fasteners. Soon afterwards, every single MRG thread was deleted from Bimmerpost. No exaggeration. You can not find those threads anywhere.

Other tid bits about the MRG studs.

- MRG studs convert your OEM M14x1.25 threads to M14x1.5 threads.
- There are many M14x1.5 wheel locks available, but none in titanium.
- If you want a wheel lock, you will have to mate a steel wheel lock to your titanium stud. Use anti-seize.

This isn't to say that MRG studs are gonna make your wheels fall off. They won't. But if you're seeing track days and pulling some G's or putting down lots of torque with sticky tires, yeah... stick with a good ol' steel fastener.

[Lee808]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Saw titanium studs in action firsthand at Eurotuner GP on the drag strip, the photographer was quick on the trigger:





link: http://www.superstreetonline.com/eve...prix/#photo-25

The wheel almost made the 1/4 mile, the workers had to chase it down. There was significant damage on the rear fender and the owner is lucky this didn't happen at high speed on the road course.

Don't tinker with safety.

Thanks for your input Tom. I don't really understand what you mean by don't tinker with safety? A few questions as I play devils advocate these days I never take anything for face value as there is always more to the story.

Are you saying this guy lost a wheel purely on the sole fact that he had titanium bolts?

What other factors were at play here? Were the wheels improperly torqued? Metal fatigue? Your link doesn't mention any of that.

It's not uncommon for people to shear steel bolts and lugs If they aren't installed properly.

Anymore to this story? Did you talk to the guy? Or are we assuming it's just because he had titanium?

Thanks

[Lee808]

Originally Posted by exo-shell

There are a couple of important things to address when it comes to titanium fasteners.

The first and foremost is the "titanium is stronger than steel" argument. This idea has been attached to the MRG stud conversion kits in threads and it's very misleading. Yes, it is true that titanium is stronger than steel when comparing them at the same weight. But it is not true when it comes to strength by volume. When comparing stud vs stud, the titanium one will have a quicker failure rate compared to steel because, remember, titanium is only stronger than steel at it's equal weight. The tensile properties of titanium is also more brittle compared to steel. For this reason alone, titanium is far from ideal as a fastener.

The second thing that you have to know about titanium is that it doesn't play well with other metals. Titanium has a high rate of galling (seizing) when it comes into high pressure contact with other metals. While zinc coated steel will rarely gall.

I have a set of MRG titanium studs. They are beautifully machined. However, one of my bolts ended up seizing despite using anti-seize.

By this time I had researched about titanium fasteners on motorsport applications and came to the conclusion that I did not want risk it. So I ordered a set of steel zinc coated studs + a set of Project Kits R40 nuts and have been extremely happy with them.

MRG heavily promoted their stud conversions on threads all across the different Bimmerpost forums. I ordered a set myself and contributed to the thread. After many batches of orders were fulfilled, some more knowledgeable people started calling out about cons pertaining to titanium fasteners. Soon afterwards, every single MRG thread was deleted from Bimmerpost. No exaggeration. You can not find those threads anywhere.

Other tid bits about the MRG studs.

- MRG studs convert your OEM M14x1.25 threads to M14x1.5 threads.
- There are many M14x1.5 wheel locks available, but none in titanium.
- If you want a wheel lock, you will have to mate a steel wheel lock to your titanium stud. Use anti-seize.

This isn't to say that MRG studs are gonna make your wheels fall off. They won't. But if you're seeing track days and pulling some G's or putting down lots of torque with sticky tires, yeah... stick with a good ol' steel fastener.

Exo, thanks for your input! My biggest concern was the dissimilar metal part. Titanium is more cathodic that most commonly used metals and that worried me a bit. I had hoped that something like never seize or locktite would help mitigate that. I read up a lot on your setup. To be honest I purchased the RZ05 based on your setup.

I figured with open studs wheel locks would be pointless so I didn't worry about that part too much. I don't want to say too much before I jinx myself though. From what I read, TI is more brittle but would brittleness be a factor in the way force and stress is applied to wheel studs? I didn't know about the thread deletion. That's sketchy...

Thanks again. Gorgeous car BTW!

[x.shell]

Originally Posted by Lee808

Exo, thanks for your input! My biggest concern was the dissimilar metal part. Titanium is more cathodic that most commonly used metals and that worried me a bit. I had hoped that something like never seize or locktite would help mitigate that. I read up a lot on your setup. To be honest I purchased the RZ05 based on your setup.

I figured with open studs wheel locks would be pointless so I didn't worry about that part too much. I don't want to say too much before I jinx myself though. From what I read, TI is more brittle but would brittleness be a factor in the way force and stress is applied to wheel studs? I didn't know about the thread deletion. That's sketchy...

Thanks again. Gorgeous car BTW!

I saw you got those brushed black tinted RZ05s. Gonna look great on the car. I can't run my RZ05s any more because I dented one of them badly. I wanted to purchase a replacement but couldn't justify how much it cost to replace a single wheel. So I ended up buying a new set of wheels. Haha!

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by Lee808

Thanks for your input Tom. I don't really understand what you mean by don't tinker with safety? A few questions as I play devils advocate these days I never take anything for face value as there is always more to the story.

Are you saying this guy lost a wheel purely on the sole fact that he had titanium bolts?

What other factors were at play here? Were the wheels improperly torqued? Metal fatigue? Your link doesn't mention any of that.

It's not uncommon for people to shear steel bolts and lugs If they aren't installed properly.

Anymore to this story? Did you talk to the guy? Or are we assuming it's just because he had titanium?

Thanks

All 5 studs were sheared off. Luckily the wheel didn't hurt spectators or the driver when it shot off.

We've seen a number of titanium studs broken as most of these kits are sourced from overseas. This particular event was limited to tuner-only/shop vehicles. I'm not aware of any "race teams" running titanium studs as there is no competitive advantage in doing so, only risk.

[M3OW!]

great info here. thanks for sh(e)aring!

[MasterP]

I've broken a set of MRG studs. I replace steel studs 2-3 times a year on my track E92 and before installing MRG studs on my F80 I had also run a set of steel.

I think for a street car that doesn't see a lot of on/off cycles, heat, or lots of track forces they're fine. They don't oxidize and they add bling to an area you over look. They're well made overall. I'd argue for rolled threads vs straight though.

They're difficult to extract when you need to and next to impossible to extract when they break off. I must have wrecked 3 drill bits extracting them. I purchased a stud extractor tool but they will ruin the threads when you use it so consider the studs trashed when you go to remove them with this method. The hex head on hand tool will usually break off so I'm not convinced there's another way.

If you want to get the most out of them you absolutely cannot use any power tool on them. Hand start with a cordless drill on the lowest torque setting that still threads it would probably be it. Hand tools otherwise.

FWIW mine broke at the track. Two of them sheared off at COTA. I came into the paddock and realized I was missing two after the session.

MRG's customer service is outstanding however. I told them this and they sent me a whole new set - no questions asked. I've had issues with one or a few getting crossed and they sent me individual pieces at no cost at all. I gave the new set to a friend that only hard parks so he'll be fine.

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by MasterP

I've broken a set of MRG studs. I replace steel studs 2-3 times a year on my track E92 and before installing MRG studs on my F80 I had also run a set of steel.

I think for a street car that doesn't see a lot of on/off cycles, heat, or lots of track forces they're fine. They don't oxidize and they add bling to an area you over look. They're well made overall. I'd argue for rolled threads vs straight though.

They're difficult to extract when you need to and next to impossible to extract when they break off. I must have wrecked 3 drill bits extracting them. I purchased a stud extractor tool but they will ruin the threads when you use it so consider the studs trashed when you go to remove them with this method. The hex head on hand tool will usually break off so I'm not convinced there's another way.

If you want to get the most out of them you absolutely cannot use any power tool on them. Hand start with a cordless drill on the lowest torque setting that still threads it would probably be it. Hand tools otherwise.

FWIW mine broke at the track. Two of them sheared off at COTA. I came into the paddock and realized I was missing two after the session.

MRG's customer service is outstanding however. I told them this and they sent me a whole new set - no questions asked. I've had issues with one or a few getting crossed and they sent me individual pieces at no cost at all. I gave the new set to a friend that only hard parks so he'll be fine.

I've had mine on my F82 for about 30K miles. Street use only, I don't really drive like a maniac but I will gun it from time to time (of course). You think I should replace them? They seem to look fine...I've only used hand tools on them (install and during tire replacements).

[MasterP]

Originally Posted by goaty

I've had mine on my F82 for about 30K miles. Street use only, I don't really drive like a maniac but I will gun it from time to time (of course). You think I should replace them? They seem to look fine...I've only used hand tools on them (install and during tire replacements).

I wish I had an answer for you. Gunning it from time to time is quite different than the forces exerted at the track on slicks. Plus I bet I had a dozen or so more on - off cycles than you.

[BikBlekGui]

I'm sorry to revive an old thread, but I've had the MRG Titanium Stud Conversion Kit for about 2 years (and used for about 20,000 km/12,000 miles). Street use only, never tracked; I only bought them for cosmetics.

However, my mechanic informed me today that my front studs (all 10 of them) are damaged and galled (?), and that I'm not driving out of his shop due to safety concerns. Thankfully, he caught the issue before a wheel flew off on the highway!

My mechanic suspects that they were either over-torqued (causing threading issues), or under-torqued (which, combined with aggressive driving, causes galling apparently?).

I know they were torqued fine, because I followed the installation instructions and hand torqued them myself. In fact, the rear 10 studs didn't show any issues and were torqued to 88 ft lbs, just like the fronts.

So, I'm confused with what's going on! Is this problematic with titanium in general? Anyone have similar issues? Should this be brought to the attention of MRG?

I remember paying almost $500 USD for these, and to have them almost claim my life is a bit of a worry!

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by BikBlekGui

I'm sorry to revive an old thread, but I've had the MRG Titanium Stud Conversion Kit for about 2 years (and used for about 20,000 km/12,000 miles). Street use only, never tracked; I only bought them for cosmetics.

However, my mechanic informed me today that my front studs (all 10 of them) are damaged and galled (?), and that I'm not driving out of his shop due to safety concerns. Thankfully, he caught the issue before a wheel flew off on the highway!

My mechanic suspects that they were either over-torqued (causing threading issues), or under-torqued (which, combined with aggressive driving, causes galling apparently?).

I know they were torqued fine, because I followed the installation instructions and hand torqued them myself. In fact, the rear 10 studs didn't show any issues and were torqued to 88 ft lbs, just like the fronts.

So, I'm confused with what's going on! Is this problematic with titanium in general? Anyone have similar issues? Should this be brought to the attention of MRG?

I remember paying almost $500 USD for these, and to have them almost claim my life is a bit of a worry!

I have almost 40K on mine and they're still fine. I torqued mine to 95lbs though. I do remember having to re-torque them 2-3 times after removing the wheel (tire changes, etc). Maybe I'm just lucky. I also never touched them with anything but hand tools, if a shop isn't careful and hit them with a gun, that could've done it.

[BikBlekGui]

Originally Posted by goaty

I have almost 40K on mine and they're still fine. I torqued mine to 95lbs though. I do remember having to re-torque them 2-3 times after removing the wheel (tire changes, etc). Maybe I'm just lucky. I also never touched them with anything but hand tools, if a shop isn't careful and hit them with a gun, that could've done it.

Thanks for the response. Glad to hear yours are still holding up.

Did some research online and apparently quite a lot of mixed reviews with regards to titanium lugs/studs. Majority seem to caution and rule against their use (i.e., galling, snapping, etc.).

I'll be going back to steel. I would just recommend you keep an eye out on yours since you're around the mileage people tend to replace them.

Although there should be absolutely no reason why you should ever have to carry the stress of your wheels falling off when spending that amount of money on, apparently, a superior product.

However, I've now learned titanium studs/lugs are *not* superior to steel studs/lugs (as far as durability and longevity). I guess you learn something new everyday!

[yjypm]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

The wheel almost made the 1/4 mile, the workers had to chase it down.

Wonder what the numbers are

[slaughter.mode]

I had my 2018 M4 equipped with these extended + tuner titanium studs from MRG for ~80K miles and they lasted all the way. That's with hard street driving on a 600+ whp F82. Only replaced because I dumped my 666Ms for some BBSs and I don't need the extended/poke out length.

[tom @ eas]

Just had a E46 M3 come in this week to extract a titanium wheel stud that snapped. Unsure of brand.

[slaughter.mode]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Just had a E46 M3 come in this week to extract a titanium wheel stud that snapped. Unsure of brand.

Certainly happens a lot with titanium studs because they often times get treated like steel. This is an aesthetic thing for me and I never had an issue with them over years of use but they have to be removed/tightened by hand (every time) and torqued about 10lbs/ft less than steel ones. Both of those critical handling details are often overlooked.