S55 vs. S65

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Ezio

i said limited right you people are unreal..... you would never last in court. a lawyer would eat you up. because of using words that were never said.

i said mostly. also those cars you listed aren't even on my "radar" . which is why i said what i said.

but again. most of the ROAD cars that have the ability to rev that high are what ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redline

look at the cars listed, sure some are Japanese cars. but a lot are are high end cars.

Something you are conveniently leaving out of your argument is how many of those high-end cars DO NOT get into that mythical >8k RPM range.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Something you are conveniently leaving out of your argument is how many of those high-end cars DO NOT get into that mythical >8k RPM range.

a lot of them!

my point was IF the car revs that high USUALLY is a higher end car!

if your car doesn't rev that high it CAN still very well be a high end car.

got it?

[Robin_NL]

One moment we're on a forum, the next we're in court where lawyers get our asses smacked or whatever.

Ezio good luck with your superfabulous excellent E92 M3 and its out of this world hyperexotic S65. You're worth it.


Cheers
Robin

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Ezio

a lot of them!

my point was IF the car revs that high USUALLY is a higher end car!

if your car doesn't rev that high it CAN still very well be a high end car.

got it?

Oh yes, I can read thank you.

And with as many non-high end cars that can reach 8K+, your argument doesn't really mean much.

So an engine can go over 8K. That can be a Mazda, Honda, or a Ferrari.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

One moment we're on a forum, the next we're in court where lawyers get our asses smacked or whatever.

Ezio good luck with your superfabulous excellent E92 M3 and its out of this world hyperexotic S65. You're worth it.


Cheers
Robin

thanks i will.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Oh yes, I can read thank you.

And with as many non-high end cars that can reach 8K+, your argument doesn't really mean much.

So an engine can go over 8K. That can be a Mazda, Honda, or a Ferrari.

BUTT mostly a Ferrari......

but ya i am don't with the debate.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Ezio

BUTT mostly a Ferrari......

but ya i am don't with the debate.

Don't? I'm assuming you mean "done". If that's the case, promise?

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Promise?

ya i just mention one little thing. and people quote me.

i made my point. moving on

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Ezio

ya i just mention one little thing. and people quote me.

i made my point. moving on

And it was refuted. But good for you.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Jockey

And it was refuted. But good for you.

so what color you getting your M4 in ?

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Ezio

so what color you getting your M4 in ?

You know, I haven't decided. I was leaning towards Silverstone. But those pictures have been unflattering. I don't want to get white again, even though Mineral White looks good. I actually think YMB looks pretty stunning.

Fortunately, I'm not getting the car for another 2 years (thank you BMW military buyer program) so I have time. This forum will be flooded by the end of next year with photos.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by Jockey

You know, I haven't decided. I was leaning towards Silverstone. But those pictures have been unflattering. I don't want to get white again, even though Mineral White looks good. I actually think YMB looks pretty stunning.

Fortunately, I'm not getting the car for another 2 years (thank you BMW military buyer program) so I have time. This forum will be flooded by the end of next year with photos.

well in 2 years i also will most likely be leaving my e92. maybe grab a M4 if they are proven to be great cars after all.

[JoeFromPA]

Gents, Ladies, Mods - I've read through about 8 pages of stuff that has nothing to do with any sort of comparison or evaluation of the s55 against the s65.

It's time to stop.

[w3rkn]

Originally Posted by Boss330

First bold point:
Ferrari's modulation is based on size of it's powerband, yes. Just as the modulation of a 4500rpm redline diesel is based on the size of that engine's powerband

Second bold point:
Throttle mapping, is exactly how manufacturers go about creating a throttle system that the driver can modulate

Third bold point:
Are you in reality rather talking about gearing and not throttle modulation? If so, let's take one more example:


Car 1 with a redline of 5000rpm and tall gearing. 10cm throttle pedal travel to go 0-100%
Car 2 with a redline of 10.000rpm and short gearing. 10cm throttle pedal travel to go 0-100%

Car 1 with a 5000rpm redline, each cm of pedal travel would mean a 500rpm change
Car 2 with a 10.000rpm redline, each cm of pedal travel would mean a 1000rpm change


Car 1 does 30MPH at 1000rpm and 60MPH at 2000rpm in 6th
Car 2 does 30MPH at 2000rpm and 60MPH at 4000rpm in 6th

To increase the speed from 30MPH to 60MPH in each car the throttle pedal has to be depressed as follows in each car:

Car 1: 1cm of pedal travel equals 500rpm increase, so a 2cm pedal input is needed to go from 1000rpm to 2000rpm, or from 30 to 60MPH in 6th gir

Car 2: 1cm of pedal travel equals 1000rpm increase, so a 2cm pedal input is needed to go from 2000rpm to 4000rpm, or from 30 to 60MPH in 6th gir



My whole point is that throttle modulation/travel is mapped (in todays fly by wire throttles) to suit the engine and it's rev range. And if a low rpm engine has a pedal travel of 2cm, instead of 1cm, to increase rpm by 1000rpm, then that negates the effect of taller gearing

BTW, it's just as hard/easy to go to a set rpm in both the low rpm diesel and the 7000+rpm NA engine. In the diesel the throttle pedal feels "lazy" as it needs more travel to get the same response compared with my NA engined cars. As I explained above, on the diesel it needs more pedal travel to increase rpm by 1000rpm, making it just as easy to hit a set target speed (or rpm).

And then we should also take into consideration that manufacturers actually have different length of pedal travel and different ratio between pedal movement and throttle valve opening...

I'm sure you believe what you are saying is correct and that you aren't just arguing for the sake of it And I have thought through your comments. But I don't see the logic. Because if a engine with half the rev range has the same pedal travel at disposal, then surely every similar input gives only half of the rpm increase as the high rpm engine does. Thereby also negating the taller gearing of that lower rpm engine...

But to stay on topic, the S55 has a 7600rpm redline so it's "only" 900rpm down on the S65.

My friend, there is no point in responding to your thread-crapping.
You have not grasped the concept of fact.


Secondly, u keep repeating yourself, trying to educate me, when in fact I could sit down with you and discuss this in earnest with a heavy hand. I am simply done with internet wars waged by overlords on forums.


Thirdly, I edited my post moments after posting, and as such, you didn't seem to notice.... ... and proceeded to make your entire post about your 2 cars. Which makes your threadcrapping even more funny. Missed, or intentional Your tactic is easily repeated & I could do the same thing your doing (crapping) and introduce an fake argument about diesel throttle reponse vs gasoline and skew what you are saying, just to play with you and thread-crap too, but instead I will shut you up with some facts.

Your analogy with the rpms & two cars is a lie. You assume that each mm of pedal travel equals the same for each car. You are basing your whole argument on a falsehood and trying to get a bunch of engineers to accept such a folly. Stop it.

The numbers and gearing at those RPM don't even add up... they are a lie. Stop it.


10% of throttle is just that... nothing more, nothing less.

Problem is, you do not understand what 10% throttle is on a car with 8,999rpms... and one with 5,200rpms.

That alone^ dismissed anything you've ever said and rebuttals any throttle point you try to make. More surface area per revolution, means more modulation of that surface area. Don't argue with math, accept it.

Your personal opinion doesn't outweigh the fact that high revving engine have more modulation available to them, thus easier to modulate. If you can't tell, or feel.. then accept that, don't rewrite history because your on a crusade.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

My friend, there is no point in responding to your thread-crapping.
You have not grasped the concept of fact.


Secondly, u keep repeating yourself, trying to educate me, when in fact I could sit down with you and discuss this in earnest with a heavy hand. I am simply done with internet wars waged by overlords on forums.


Thirdly, I edited my post moments after posting, and as such, you didn't seem to notice.... ... and proceeded to make your entire post about your 2 cars. Which makes your threadcrapping even more funny. Missed, or intentional Your tactic is easily repeated & I could do the same thing your doing (crapping) and introduce an fake argument about diesel throttle reponse vs gasoline and skew what you are saying, just to play with you and thread-crap too, but instead I will shut you up with some facts.

Your analogy with the rpms & two cars is a lie. You assume that each mm of pedal travel equals the same for each car. You are basing your whole argument on a falsehood and trying to get a bunch of engineers to accept such a folly. Stop it.

The numbers and gearing at those RPM don't even add up... they are a lie. Stop it.


10% of throttle is just that... nothing more, nothing less.

Problem is, you do not understand what 10% throttle is on a car with 8,999rpms... and one with 5,200rpms.

That alone^ dismissed anything you've ever said and rebuttals any throttle point you try to make. More surface area per revolution, means more modulation of that surface area. Don't argue with math, accept it.

Your personal opinion doesn't outweigh the fact that high revving engine have more modulation available to them, thus easier to modulate. If you can't tell, or feel.. then accept that, don't rewrite history because your on a crusade.

You ARE funny

YOU was the one that brought up the idea that pedal travel was equal between cars whereas I have tried to explain to you that it isn't... I have used YOUR premise on equal pedal travel just to point out how that works out...

I have in fact explained to you that 1mm of pedal travel does NOT equal the same throttle opening!!!

Gearing and RPM was just taking your point and illustrating how that works out in a theoretical example. Care to explain how it doesn't add up?

Happy New Year

[w3rkn]

Originally Posted by Boss330

You ARE funny

That is a proper response from an someone (adolescent) who doesn't know how to accept responsibility for their own lies..



edit:
Once again, you are fibbing.
I never said any of those things, perhaps you meant to quote/argue with someone else? As I don't need to speak about throttle openings, to deal with mechanical gearing and modulation of SFM. You did... and you still need that concept to illustrate modulation, because u cannot understand torque and gearing and ratios of gears. Which are all FACTS.

You didn't explain anything to me, because I didn't ask those questions. You seem to pose your own questions, then rhetorically answer them..? Very weird.




I agree Happy New Year..

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

That is a proper response from an someone (adolescent) who doesn't know how to accept responsibility for their own lies..

Maybe you should also reread my edited post...

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

Once again, you are fibbing.
I never said any of those things, perhaps you meant to quote/argue with someone else? As I don't need to speak about throttle openings, to deal with mechanical gearing and modulation of SFM. You did... and you still need that concept to illustrate modulation, because u cannot understand torque and gearing and ratios of gears. Which are all FACTS.

You didn't explain anything to me, because I didn't ask those questions. You seem to pose your own questions, then rhetorically answer them..? Very weird.

I agree Happy New Year..

Can't see that I got an explanation as to why the rpm, gearing and mph was "a lie"... Once again, if you accuse me of lying at least explain to me what's a lie in that example...

So you never said that all cars had the same pedal travel?
Or about the 1mm of pedal travel?
And you don't need to speak about throttle opening?

Then please explain what you do in the quoted posts from you below

Originally Posted by w3rkn

My friend, I never said it was hard, just harder.

All cars have the same length pedal, you mean "longer" in the sense you can go threw that car's powerband longer... not that the pedal actually has longer travel.

It takes more precision, to modulate a car that has less RPMs. than one that has more rpms. This is a fact!

Holding 3,350rpms on a tach that goes to 5k, or doing the same with one that goes to 8,900rpms..? Those increment on the tachometer, illustrate what you feel with your foot.. rpms. More increment, more modulation. This is a simple fact my friend.

example: (constant 30mph)
1mm of pedal travel on a 1M in 3rd gear, gives more thrust, more MPH, than the same 1mm of pedal travel on a high-revving M3. Every single movement of you foot on a 9k engine, is felt by the passenger, because the modulation is near 1 to 1. (Higher multiplier in low revving engines.)

Originally Posted by w3rkn

My friend, I never said it was hard, just harder.

All cars have the same length pedal, you mean "longer" in the sense you can go threw that car's powerband longer... not that the pedal actually has longer travel.

It takes more precision, to modulate a car that has less RPMs. than one that has more rpms. This is a fact!

Holding 3,350rpms on a tach that goes to 5k, or doing the same with one that goes to 8,900rpms..? Those increment on the tachometer, illustrate what you feel with your foot.. rpms. More increment, more modulation. This is a simple fact my friend.

example: (constant 30mph)
1mm of pedal travel on a 1M in 3rd gear, gives more thrust, more MPH, than the same 1mm of pedal travel on a high-revving M3. Every single movement of you foot on a 9k engine, is felt by the passenger, because the modulation is near 1 to 1. (Higher multiplier in low revving engines.)



Secondly, why do u keep bringing up Turbo vs V8? I am strictly talking about RPM range. I already clarified that I brought up "turbo" because they are not high-revving engines.

Lastly, turbo lag has zero to do with my point, as turbo lag is different from every manufacturer, or design. Lag hinders modulation.. everyone knows that.

Originally Posted by w3rkn

Your analogy with the rpms & two cars is a lie. You assume that each mm of pedal travel equals the same for each car. You are basing your whole argument on a falsehood and trying to get a bunch of engineers to accept such a folly. Stop it.


The numbers and gearing at those RPM don't even add up... they are a lie. Stop it.


10% of throttle is just that... nothing more, nothing less.

Problem is, you do not understand what 10% throttle is on a car with 8,999rpms... and one with 5,200rpms.

And if you are talking about throttle valve modulation (and not throttle pedal modulation as a result of the ratio between throttle pedal input and throttle valve opening), then:

On a std throttle valve there is slightly less than 90degrees of travel, agree?

Then from idle to redline you have, say 85 degree of throttle valve movement available, right? On a engine with a broad rev range each rpm increase represents a certain degree of throttle valve opening. The broader the rev range the smaller the degree of change on throttle valve opening is needed to increase rpm compared to a low rev range engine.

On a 8500rpm engine, each degree of throttle opening represents a 100rpm change (8500rpm/85degree = 100)

On a 6000rpm engine, each degree of throttle opening represents a 70rpm change (6000rpm/85degree = 70)

On a 5000rpm engine, each degree of throttle opening represents a 59rpm change (5000rpm/85degree = 59)

So on a high rpm engine engine each degree of throttle valve change represents a larger change in engine rpm, which as you said, is somewhat offset by shorter gearing. Meaning that the change in vehicle velocity might not be different even though the change in engine rpm is different.

But not sure how a 1 degree throttle change that represents a 100rpm change is easier to modulate than a 1 degree change that represents 70 or 59rpm?

What am I missing in your argument?

[Robin_NL]

Come on Boss, let it go

Ik zit al aan het bier, veel belangrijker lol.

My wife doesn't want me around in the kitchen so...lonely drinking...

HNY everybody
Cheers
Robin

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Come on Boss, let it go

Ik zit al aan het bier, veel belangrijker lol.

My wife doesn't want me around in the kitchen so...lonely drinking...

HNY everybody
Cheers
Robin

Yeah, I will

We are on a cabin in the mountains, good food and drinks!

HNY

[Ezio]

all dis technical talk makes my tired

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Ezio

all dis technical talk makes my tired

Of you to say this...