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      01-20-2021, 11:13 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Jim View Post
Can you elaborate on how the Dorch HPFP allows you to run lower pressure due to increase in fuel flow? That doesn't make sense to me because the injectors are the fueling limitation on these cars and not the HPFP. The reason we run a higher fuel pressure is because it allows you to push more fuel through the same size injectors, but lowering pressure because you have more flow from a bigger pump wouldn't do anything when you bottleneck is still the injector. I'm curious because I've tuned a few of these cars and currently I'm just waiting on an aftermarket injector because it doesn't seem like a bigger HPFP will do anything for power.
We think you may have misinterpreted what was stated in our previous post. Yes, you are correct that the factory DI injectors are the primary bottleneck of the stock fuel system and adding higher flowing HPFP's will do nothing to increase the fueling capabilities of an otherwise stock fuel system. That is one of the main points we brought up on our first post. However, this only holds true based on your power goals and how reliable of a fuel system you would like to have.

Scenario 1: A turbo upgraded S55 running straight E85 looking to produce 750whp could easily do so on EU5 injectors without upgraded HPFP's, upgraded LPFP, or PI. However, just as you would need to target high fuel pressure on the HPFP side when getting close to the limit of the factory DI injector you will still need to do the same when reaching the flow limit of the EU5's. This is primary cause of injector failure as we previously discussed.

Scenario 2: The same vehicle and goals listed in scenario 1 with the addition of EU5's and HPFP upgrades will support the same power goals, but will do so without the risk of injector failure since upgraded HPFP's flow significantly more volume at a much stable and lower pressure.

Unfortunately, since we have not completed testing with EU5's and Dorch HPFP solution for maximum power without PI, we can not say for certain what the safe limit on straight E85 is just yet. However, we can say with certainty that a HPFP upgrade is going to be required for big power applications as fuel pressure will begin to crash at those levels.
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      01-20-2021, 11:21 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///BMW Junkie View Post
Noted. Yes, while a large majority of cars running full E85 with a stock fuel system (no meth) are on stock turbos (550-600whp), I do believe most of us here very interested in this discussion are running upgraded turbos. My understanding is that the max effort with upgraded turbos and stock fuel system (no meth) is 650-670whp, albeit on E50. Please correct me if any of this is incorrect, I'm just going by what I've seen shared online and advertised on popular F8X tuner website.

Now I'm sure lot of us got excited about the idea of a upgraded DI system for a more cleaner OEM+ application with less potential issues/leaks and the fact of not having to deal with old tech controllers. Unfortunately Spool came out with a HPFP product without sharing much data if any and no mention of injectors.

That said, I know several people with upgraded turbos who are not particularly interested in running supplemental fueling (meth or PI) and are really curious on the potential gains/max HP from the following potential setups I will list below.

Please note, this is in regards to what I'd call most common upgraded turbo setup, just looking to run full E85 and make generally accepted "safe" amount of power (700-750whp) without the need to build the motor. Again no meth or PI, just DI.

1. EU5 injectors only
2. LPFP with EU5 injectors
3. HPFP with EU5 injectors
4. HPFP/LPFP and EU5 injectors
5. Another potential combo you advise?
Based on the power goal of 700whp-750whp, scenario 2 in our previous post would be our recommendation which would be EU5's with HPFP upgrades for power sustainability and overall reliability. However, adding a higher flowing LPFP is a minimal cost in the big scheme of things and we don't see why anyone wouldn't opt for adding that into the mix as well just as an added precautionary measure.
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      01-20-2021, 11:28 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ6 View Post
Sales@KRATOS

As a caveat to the "EU5 injectors only" listed above, if one wanted to pursue an E50-E60 tune as opposed to a full E85 tune, would the upgraded injectors return a better result as opposed to the stock injectors when running upgraded turbos?

Seeing as I'm not planning on breaking any records or building the engine, if the EU5 injectors would benefit the KRAS55Bi's at an E50-E60 level I might be inclined to use the stock HPFP's going forward.
EU5's would definitely be a better option when running anything over E30 with upgraded turbos. However, the whole premise behind running E50-E60 is due to the limit of the factory DI injectors. If you install EU5's there would be no reason not to run straight E85. Running a blended mix to lower your ethanol content would serve no purpose or benefit at that point other than limiting power. If it's a power limit your concerned with, just simply turn down the power.
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      01-21-2021, 12:14 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS View Post
...the injectors we had the best success with were the EU5's.
For the sake of clarity, the referenced injectors are the F10 EU5 (part #13647599876) correct?
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      01-21-2021, 12:31 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ6 View Post
For the sake of clarity, the referenced injectors are the F10 EU5 (part #13647599876) correct?
Correct, but do not forget that you will also need to replace all decoupling elements as well.
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      01-21-2021, 12:56 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ6 View Post
Sales@KRATOS

As a caveat to the "EU5 injectors only" listed above, if one wanted to pursue an E50-E60 tune as opposed to a full E85 tune, would the upgraded injectors return a better result as opposed to the stock injectors when running upgraded turbos?

Seeing as I'm not planning on breaking any records or building the engine, if the EU5 injectors would benefit the KRAS55Bi's at an E50-E60 level I might be inclined to use the stock HPFP's going forward.
EU5's would definitely be a better option when running anything over E30 with upgraded turbos. However, the whole premise behind running E50-E60 is due to the limit of the factory DI injectors. If you install EU5's there would be no reason not to run straight E85. Running a blended mix to lower your ethanol content would serve no purpose or benefit at that point other than limiting power. If it's a power limit your concerned with, just simply turn down the power.
Some areas of the US mandate ethanol content to a certain level, in Arizona for example, E54 is the statewide mandate.
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      01-21-2021, 01:05 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSXDC5 View Post
Some areas of the US mandate ethanol content to a certain level, in Arizona for example, E54 is the statewide mandate.
Absolutely understandable, we only recommended running higher than E50-E60 with EU5's if it's available so you can take advantage of the ethanol content. If your ethanol content is restricted due to regional mandates, than we would still recommend running the EU5's if you have the ability to do so.
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      01-21-2021, 01:20 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSXDC5 View Post
Some areas of the US mandate ethanol content to a certain level, in Arizona for example, E54 is the statewide mandate.
Absolutely understandable, we only recommended running higher than E50-E60 with EU5's if it's available so you can take advantage of the ethanol content. If your ethanol content is restricted due to regional mandates, than we would still recommend running the EU5's if you have the ability to do so.
Would there be a benefit to run eu5 injectors when ordering new ones on full e85 with upgraded turbos and port injection on full e85? Might as well swap them out if ordering a new set anyways. I recently started getting idle issues and still haven't figured out why yet. Working with my tuner to figure it out. My lambda is different for bank 1 and bank 2 on idle. Thinking it's a stuck open or leaky injector or something similar. Might change all of the injectors. Would it be worth switching to eu5?
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      01-21-2021, 01:28 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F80_Greg View Post
Would there be a benefit to run eu5 injectors when ordering new ones on full e85 with upgraded turbos and port injection on full e85? Might as well swap them out if ordering a new set anyways. I recently started getting idle issues and still haven't figured out why yet. Working with my tuner to figure it out. My lambda is different for bank 1 and bank 2 on idle. Thinking it's a stuck open or leaky injector or something similar. Might change all of the injectors. Would it be worth switching to eu5?
It's always more beneficial switching over to EU5's when running anything above E30 on upgraded turbos.
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      01-21-2021, 03:35 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F80_Greg View Post
Would there be a benefit to run eu5 injectors when ordering new ones on full e85 with upgraded turbos and port injection on full e85? Might as well swap them out if ordering a new set anyways. I recently started getting idle issues and still haven't figured out why yet. Working with my tuner to figure it out. My lambda is different for bank 1 and bank 2 on idle. Thinking it's a stuck open or leaky injector or something similar. Might change all of the injectors. Would it be worth switching to eu5?
It's always more beneficial switching over to EU5's when running anything above E30 on upgraded turbos.
Thank you! Would there be a need for coding to change fueling parameters? Sorry if that's been asked already
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      01-21-2021, 03:42 PM   #143
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This thread has become extremely informative, thanks Kratos!!
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      01-21-2021, 07:10 PM   #144
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ6 View Post
For the sake of clarity, the referenced injectors are the F10 EU5 (part #13647599876) correct?
Correct, but do not forget that you will also need to replace all decoupling elements as well.
I tried searching, but couldn't really find a proper answer. What is the difference between the EU5 and EU6 injectors and are there different versions of each?
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      01-21-2021, 09:02 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///BMW Junkie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ6 View Post
For the sake of clarity, the referenced injectors are the F10 EU5 (part #13647599876) correct?
Correct, but do not forget that you will also need to replace all decoupling elements as well.
I tried searching, but couldn't really find a proper answer. What is the difference between the EU5 and EU6 injectors and are there different versions of each?
Was back a few pages... link:
https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=26933498
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      01-21-2021, 09:10 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by F80_Greg View Post
Thank you! Would there be a need for coding to change fueling parameters? Sorry if that's been asked already

pretty sure you'd need to scale the EU5 injectors in the DME.
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      01-21-2021, 10:29 PM   #147
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What other items need to be ordered with the EU5 injectors to mate it up. Kratos mentioned decoupling elements. Also what hpfp and lpfp are y'all going with? Is PI still necessary on stock motor with these fuel upgrades? Trying to gather info and create a build sheet and do more research on what's needed when upgrading turbos. Might pull the trigger in a month or so once I gather all info. My plan is upgrade turbos (undecided brand still looking into all options and talking with people who already have turbos installed), upgrade fueling to run on full e85 and meth for cooling if possible, upgrade dct clutches (probably ssp), stay stock motor (build down the road), stock driveshaft, and axles (maybe upgrade after they break) for now. Thanks! 🤙🏽

P.s. I have a build sheet already but it's way out dated it was created well over a year ago. I'm sure there's a lot of new products and newly found upgrades/ limitations so trying to keep my build as up to date as possible. Thanks ahead of time for any info provided!
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      01-22-2021, 01:42 AM   #148
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Canít wait til my KRAS55EVO are installed on my car.

SSR went with all your recommendations Dorch HPFP, primary injector upgrade etc. all this paired with a fully built motor (head build, pistons, rods, etc), port injection and new manifold. Really donít know what to expect. Super excited and canít to share with you guys in about 2 months once sheís all complete.
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      01-22-2021, 09:41 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F80_Greg View Post
Thank you! Would there be a need for coding to change fueling parameters? Sorry if that's been asked already
Yes, you will definitely need to retune and calibrate fuel tables to accommodate for the larger EU5 injectors. We will forewarn you that this is not as simple as it sounds and requires an experienced tuner familiar with DI injector scaling if you want to retain good startup, drivability, and WOT characteristics.
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      01-22-2021, 09:43 AM   #150
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This thread has become extremely informative, thanks Kratos!!
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      01-22-2021, 09:53 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carguy1994 View Post
Sales@KRATOS

Can’t wait til my KRAS55EVO are installed on my car.

SSR went with all your recommendations Dorch HPFP, primary injector upgrade etc. all this paired with a fully built motor (head build, pistons, rods, etc), port injection and new manifold. Really don’t know what to expect. Super excited and can’t to share with you guys in about 2 months once she’s all complete.
We're humbled that you chose our KRAS55EVO Turbo System as part of your build and are looking forward to your results as well! We're confident you'll be very pleased with the outcome!
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      01-22-2021, 12:29 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS View Post
Yes, you will definitely need to retune and calibrate fuel tables to accommodate for the larger EU5 injectors. We will forewarn you that this is not as simple as it sounds and requires an experienced tuner familiar with DI injector scaling if you want to retain good startup, drivability, and WOT characteristics.
So I take it that this isn't an instance where you can calibrate the EU5 injectors in ISTA in order to run properly?

It's understandable that they'll need to be tuned for from the aspect of injector scaling as you mentioned, and I only ask as I've read that EU5's require that injector calibration numbers be entered in ISTA when moving from EU6 to EU5's. I'll be doing a remote tune soon after installation but want to ensure that I can still drive to where I need to go without any adverse effects.
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      01-22-2021, 01:03 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ6 View Post
So I take it that this isn't an instance where you can calibrate the EU5 injectors in ISTA in order to run properly?

It's understandable that they'll need to be tuned for from the aspect of injector scaling as you mentioned, and I only ask as I've read that EU5's require that injector calibration numbers be entered in ISTA when moving from EU6 to EU5's. I'll be doing a remote tune soon after installation but want to ensure that I can still drive to where I need to go without any adverse effects.
Anytime injectors are changed you should code them through ISTA even with the OEM S55 injectors. We definitely would not recommend trying to start or drive the car once EU5's are installed unless you have a base injector calibration loaded specifically for EU5's.
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      01-22-2021, 01:52 PM   #154
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ6 View Post
So I take it that this isn't an instance where you can calibrate the EU5 injectors in ISTA in order to run properly?

It's understandable that they'll need to be tuned for from the aspect of injector scaling as you mentioned, and I only ask as I've read that EU5's require that injector calibration numbers be entered in ISTA when moving from EU6 to EU5's. I'll be doing a remote tune soon after installation but want to ensure that I can still drive to where I need to go without any adverse effects.
Anytime injectors are changed you should code them through ISTA even with the OEM S55 injectors. We definitely would not recommend trying to start or drive the car once EU5's are installed unless you have a base injector calibration loaded specifically for EU5's.
Are s55 stock eu6 Bosch injectors needing to be coded? I thought there was a whole discussion on that and it was not needed?
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