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      07-10-2013, 08:43 AM   #1
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M3 / M4 V6 Speculation

Despite verbal confirmation from a BMW official over a year ago, as well as spy photos showing what is from all indicators an I6 engine under the hood of an M3:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=694375

Speculation - fueled primarily by supposed insiders elsewhere around the internet - persists surrounding the possibility of a V6 engine instead.

This thread is the place to discuss such theories. Break out the tinfoils hats, folks.

More past discussions:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=516496
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=533140

The genesis of the V6 rumors and initial reactions:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242541
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      08-05-2013, 03:37 PM   #2
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V6 Speculation

Hello,

This is my first post here. Last weekend I drove Behind a M4. I have a tuned 135i And We were on Autobahn. I am from Germany...
In my opinion this can't really be an 3.0 R6... And you will see this in a few time!!! I hope u remember this post then. Sound is nothing like N55/54 it's 95Percent a V6!!! Like I said before this is my first post and you dint know me but I was 5-10 minutes behind him and it sounds nothing like R or 3.0...
Picture in the following link.
At all People here don't believe all the infos u read about engine here.
I know BMW chief of you said R6 but don't give too much on this or existing VIn !!! And if you don't believe me then give it the chance of 50:50.

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      08-06-2013, 02:24 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tose111 View Post
Hello,

This is my first post here. Last weekend I drove Behind a M4. I have a tuned 135i And We were on Autobahn. I am from Germany...
In my opinion this can't really be an 3.0 R6... And you will see this in a few time!!! I hope u remember this post then. Sound is nothing like N55/54 it's 95Percent a V6!!! Like I said before this is my first post and you dint know me but I was 5-10 minutes behind him and it sounds nothing like R or 3.0...
Picture in the following link.
At all People here don't believe all the infos u read about engine here.
I know BMW chief of you said R6 but don't give too much on this or existing VIn !!! And if you don't believe me then give it the chance of 50:50.

Welcome to the forum. It is great to have contributors here directly from Germany.

Given the changes to sound based on the intake and exhaust systems, especially with forced induction systems, I do not believe one can use their hearing alone to distinguish between an I6 vs. V6. I also don't believe one can tell the difference between a 10% variation (or even 25% or more for that matter) in displacement. Now the fact that it won't sound like a tuned 135i, that makes perfect sense to me.
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      08-06-2013, 02:55 AM   #4
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Hello swamp2,
I See your Point and I expected nothing else... The only thing I want to say is that I wouldn't trust it will sure be this I6. The things you wrote to me are the same. You can't trust something until its released/ official. VIN or unofficial statements are no evidence. It's only two Pros but there are cons too. And there is a possibility or good reason that some people(Bmw included) made wrong information just to hide real specs. I think time will tell and I don't want to convince somebody. My only concern is Dont jump to the conclusion it must be N55 tuned. This sounds not like the scientific way...
Greetings from Germany😊
Thorsten
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      08-06-2013, 03:04 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tose111 View Post
Hello swamp2,
I See your Point and I expected nothing else... The only thing I want to say is that I wouldn't trust it will sure be this I6. The things you wrote to me are the same. You can't trust something until its released/ official. VIN or unofficial statements are no evidence. It's only two Pros but there are cons too. And there is a possibility or good reason that some people(Bmw included) made wrong information just to hide real specs. I think time will tell and I don't want to convince somebody. My only concern is Dont jump to the conclusion it must be N55 tuned. This sounds not like the scientific way...
Greetings from Germany��
Thorsten
Soo it sounds like a V6. Is that like a good sounding FI V6 as the GT-R or better a Maserati Ghibli? I.e did you like the sound it makes?

Last edited by solstice; 08-06-2013 at 03:29 AM..
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      08-06-2013, 03:35 AM   #6
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Hello solstice,
it sounded something like the Maserati when he revved up. Sound was Really Good in my Opinion. Nothing like Ricer Or so, it sounded more like grown up... Acceleration was immense.
Another Good Thing was how quick it went into corners. It Cornered very fast and he doesnt Wanted that i Follow him any longer... This was Mad Speed in Corners!!! But i dont want you to think i am a Fanboy. But Since i saw it in Action i am in Love with Sound, Performance and Looks.. Hopefully My next Car... Like i Said before dont judge the Car Til you dont know all Details... I know i an emotional now but this has a Good reason

Last edited by Tose111; 08-06-2013 at 04:04 AM..
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      08-06-2013, 02:28 PM   #7
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Many times me and some other said the M3/M4 was going to get a V6 engine, but there has always been a possibility of an I6.

M3/M4 is taking on GT-R. In fact it will be not much slower than 1st version GT-R.
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      08-06-2013, 03:11 PM   #8
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One thing is for sure, with so much "leaked" info already official and unofficial BMW has us still guessing about pretty much everything even core parts as the engine type. Can't wait for the concept and hopefully some more clarity in a few main areas. I can't recall being so excited about a car in a very long time.
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      08-06-2013, 04:34 PM   #9
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I Totally agree... i Need a Time machine to Drive this Thing now😜
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      08-06-2013, 05:35 PM   #10
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IF BMW goes for a V6, then that is a major change in engine architecture for a BMW 6 cyl. Would be really interesting if they did that, and would also mean that it would be a "M only" engine But, somehow I am inclined to lean towards a I6 engine at the moment (based on some sources like VIN and photos of the engine bay - If not an I6 then BMW has really done a lot to make us believe it, with a test mule that clearly has a I6 engine in it with the bonnet open... That would actually be awesome if BMW built a I6 car for testing and media leaks and then reveal a V6 M3/4 )
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      08-06-2013, 06:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tose111 View Post
Hello swamp2,
I See your Point and I expected nothing else... The only thing I want to say is that I wouldn't trust it will sure be this I6. The things you wrote to me are the same. You can't trust something until its released/ official. VIN or unofficial statements are no evidence. It's only two Pros but there are cons too. And there is a possibility or good reason that some people(Bmw included) made wrong information just to hide real specs. I think time will tell and I don't want to convince somebody. My only concern is Dont jump to the conclusion it must be N55 tuned. This sounds not like the scientific way...
Greetings from Germany😊
Thorsten
There is a chance for sure. This could be the S63 with 2 cylinders lopped off. However, there is greater evidence both technically and from a cost perspective pointing to an I6. The chances certainly are not 50-50, probably closer to 80-20 in favor of the I6. Great to also hear that the car left such a strong impression with you. Cheers.
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      08-06-2013, 06:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
M3/M4 is taking on GT-R. In fact it will be not much slower than 1st version GT-R.
I believe it will be. The original GT-R probably had around 530 hp (it was definitively underrated). That makes its power to weight significantly better than a 450 hp 3400 lb M4 and those figures are optimistic for the M4. The GT-R is also (obviously) a beast off of the line due to not only AWD but a very advanced ATESSA ET-S AWD system.
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      08-08-2013, 03:03 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
There is a chance for sure. This could be the S63 with 2 cylinders lopped off. However, there is greater evidence both technically and from a cost perspective pointing to an I6. The chances certainly are not 50-50, probably closer to 80-20 in favor of the I6. Great to also hear that the car left such a strong impression with you. Cheers.
If you follows the posts in some important german forums related with BMW or especially BMW M ... the chances has changed and are also conservatively rated safe 50-50 ... and development cost are never an great problem, significant costs alone are the production costs over the life of the product.

Therefore, I would guess at the moment:
  • Weight +/- 3275lbs. - EU-weight of an german car
  • Engine V6 BiTurbo - based on the S63Tü
  • Displacement between 2.999 and 3.296ccm
  • Redline 7.800U/min
  • hp-numbers between 440 and 460hp (german)
  • Max.Torque +/- 580Nm
  • Acceleration 0-100km / h +/- 4.0sec
  • NOS-Laptime +/- 7.40min on standard sport tires

Greets Uli_HH
P.S. this are only my assumptions ... lets look who near they are at reality !!!

Last edited by Uli_HH; 08-08-2013 at 03:13 AM..
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      08-08-2013, 05:14 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
If you follows the posts in some important german forums related with BMW or especially BMW M ... the chances has changed and are also conservatively rated safe 50-50 ... and development cost are never an great problem, significant costs alone are the production costs over the life of the product.

Therefore, I would guess at the moment:
  • Weight +/- 3275lbs. - EU-weight of an german car
  • Engine V6 BiTurbo - based on the S63Tü
  • Displacement between 2.999 and 3.296ccm
  • Redline 7.800U/min
  • hp-numbers between 440 and 460hp (german)
  • Max.Torque +/- 580Nm
  • Acceleration 0-100km / h +/- 4.0sec
  • NOS-Laptime +/- 7.40min on standard sport tires

Greets Uli_HH
P.S. this are only my assumptions ... lets look who near they are at reality !!!
Thanks again for sharing some information from the German language forums. I always appreciate hearing that as I don't read/speak German.

However, I don't think you numbers are entirely consistent. We do also need to consider actual tested values vs. BMW quoted values. I'm assuming for the performance numbers you are quoting actual measured numbers not the overly conservative numbers BMW always provides?
  • 3.3l/4.4l * 680 Nm = 510 Nm. If the car made 580 Nm it's torque per liter would be way way above the M5s S63Tu (14% higher). That just doesn't make sense. Regardless of a V6 or I6.
  • 580 Nm with a torque curve anything like the current M5 will provide substantially more than 460 hp, more like 470 hp. Although the car will probably be underrated, I don't think 470 hp is reasonable for the specified nor actual number. Your figures are just are not mathematically consistent numbers, regardless of being good guesses or not. What kind of guess is that?
  • As discussed in many places prior I believe even 3300 lb is unreasonable based on the existing 435i weight (EU unladen) which with I6 and DCT is 1600 kg or 3527 lb. The M4 is going to be 250 lb lighter with all of the components which MUST be heavier? Not without a high amount of very expensive composites and not without CF seats and CSiC brakes...

All of this being said, I firmly agree about the importance of production costs and that they far outweigh the development costs. More reason to favor the I6!
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Last edited by swamp2; 08-08-2013 at 05:19 AM..
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      08-08-2013, 05:24 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli_HH View Post
If you follows the posts in some important german forums related with BMW or especially BMW M ... the chances has changed and are also conservatively rated safe 50-50 ... and development cost are never an great problem, significant costs alone are the production costs over the life of the product.

Therefore, I would guess at the moment:
  • Weight +/- 3275lbs. - EU-weight of an german car
  • Engine V6 BiTurbo - based on the S63Tü
  • Displacement between 2.999 and 3.296ccm
  • Redline 7.800U/min
  • hp-numbers between 440 and 460hp (german)
  • Max.Torque +/- 580Nm
  • Acceleration 0-100km / h +/- 4.0sec
  • NOS-Laptime +/- 7.40min on standard sport tires

Greets Uli_HH
P.S. this are only my assumptions ... lets look who near they are at reality !!!
Intriguing

Not sure how reliable your sources are, but this just makes me look even more forward to the official details of the next gen M3/M4

And, the current gen M3 has a engine that is exclusive to the M3 (based on the M5 V10). Going to be interesting to see what they are doing for the next gen

BMW and a V6, after all these years of I6...
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      08-08-2013, 06:29 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Thanks again for sharing some information from the German language forums. I always appreciate hearing that as I don't read/speak German.

However, I don't think you numbers are entirely consistent. We do also need to consider actual tested values vs. BMW quoted values. I'm assuming for the performance numbers you are quoting actual measured numbers not the overly conservative numbers BMW always provides?
  • 3.3l/4.4l * 680 Nm = 510 Nm. If the car made 580 Nm it's torque per liter would be way way above the M5s S63Tu (14% higher). That just doesn't make sense. Regardless of a V6 or I6.
  • 580 Nm with a torque curve anything like the current M5 will provide substantially more than 460 hp, more like 470 hp. Although the car will probably be underrated, I don't think 470 hp is reasonable for the specified nor actual number. Your figures are just are not mathematically consistent numbers, regardless of being good guesses or not. What kind of guess is that?
  • As discussed in many places prior I believe even 3300 lb is unreasonable based on the existing 435i weight (EU unladen) which with I6 and DCT is 1600 kg or 3527 lb. The M4 is going to be 250 lb lighter with all of the components which MUST be heavier? Not without a high amount of very expensive composites and not without CF seats and CSiC brakes...

All of this being said, I firmly agree about the importance of production costs and that they far outweigh the development costs. More reason to favor the I6!
These number are only my guesses based on the informations I have, mostly from german forums ... more only per PM.

To Point 2: I think 580Nm is with the overboost function ... and the the V6 has clearly much more potential than my numbers.

And for the weight ... the new M3/M4 will have the lightest chasis ever build in at an car like this, also with carbon composite components ... it will have the lowest unsprung masses you can imagine.
Overall when you think about the new BMW carbon composite you must forget things like the M3 roof or Vorsteiner Parts ... look at the i3 and you see what I meen.

Greets Uli_HH

Last edited by Uli_HH; 08-08-2013 at 06:49 AM..
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      08-08-2013, 09:18 AM   #17
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A V6 certainly would be interesting. BMW clings to the I6 because of its inherent balance. The I6 and V12 are considered the "perfect" engine design when it comes to balance of 1st and 2nd order forces. Everything else is a compromise. Maybe the time has come when BMW too will compromise.

As great as an I6 is, there are downsides. It trades packaging dimensions for balance. An I6 is very long for its displacement. When comparing linear dimension to volumetric measurement, a cube is the most efficient simple geometric shape, and it's easy to see how the space requirements of a V6 are much closer to a cube-shape than an I6.
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      08-08-2013, 11:36 AM   #18
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I'm not really sure why BMW would switch over to a V6, what are the advantages other than what I understand to be easier turbo plumbing on the exhaust manifolds? Seems like most companies go with a V6 either for space considerations (i.e. transverse mounts) or platform flexibility. BMW has always been a RWD first company, therefore, they can package the engine far behind the front axle with the idea that they will never directly drive the front axle. There's also the added benefit of more optimal F/R weight balance. The I6 is inherently balanced (which I naively assume would allow it to rev higher with all else being equal), and doesn't require fancy dual exhausts to get a proper note. Plus, I thought BMW was going to leverage at least the block from the N55...doesn't seem to make much sense to retool a plant to build a completely different engine.

If you take the Audi B8 MLB platform (not trying to be a fanboy, it's just a platform I understand), there is always the notion that the next gen passat or other VW car will use the platform in an east/west engine layout. The F30 chassis will never be used for a FWD car.
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      08-08-2013, 12:06 PM   #19
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Thanks for the Thread mkoesel!
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      08-08-2013, 12:09 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Thanks for the Thread mkoesel!
Well don't make me feel all guilty about my lighthearted jab.

While I acknowledge the possibility exists - however remote - I personally consider it extremely unlikely.
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      08-08-2013, 01:37 PM   #21
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I also think it's unlikely based on the leaks/spy photos but from an R&D and production point of view I don't see any problem. BMW has mutilated an M5 engine before to create the M3 engine and the component sharing between all of the M engines ( M3, M4, M5, X6M, X5M, M6, M6GC ) could potentially save more in the long run than re-using the tools for the N55 block and then use all M3 specific components. It's not as clear cut from a cost planning perspective as it can look from a glance. And a V6 is more compact leaving more space for trciked out multi turbo setups. I'd put it at 60 (I6)/40(V6) at this point. I was at 90/10 but I'm starting to wobble on that.
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      08-08-2013, 03:00 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drob23 View Post
BMW has always been a RWD first company, therefore, they can package the engine far behind the front axle with the idea that they will never directly drive the front axle.
To the best of my knowledge, BMW has never built a car with the engine entirely behind the front axle (M1 excluded). The E9x M3 is close, because it's a V motor, with two liters on each side, but there's still a good bit in front of the shock towers. Looking at E46 M3's and F30 335's, there's a ton of motor, half or more in front of the shock towers. Going to a cut down M5 motor would give the potential of actually accomplishing a setup with the motor behind the rear axle and getting an optimal rearward weight bias, not the marketing 50/50 that BMW would like you to believe is ideal.

F30 335i:


E90 M3:


F10 M5:
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