Yet Another Stock Dyno Run

[Titanium Silver]

Beast

[bm323]

Originally Posted by solstice

The car feel big though, and I really wish the steering was more communicative. It's the one thing that I miss more than the S65.... It is a bit of beast for sure. Very impressive power and I had genuinely fun today, something the F10 for example wasn't able to be on the same/similar roads. The suspension is great.

"Communicative" is incorrect; you prefer the steering feel of the hydraulic , not that the EPS is less "communicative", since you're not driving it at its limit.

You can't be serious ... comparing your F10 535i and the M3

ps Steering "feedback"/"responsiveness"/"communicative" is used correctly here http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1005166

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1020315

[Canyon_Dancer]

Originally Posted by bm323

"Communicative" is incorrect; you prefer the steering feel of the hydraulic , not that the EPS is less "communicative", since you're not driving it at its limit.

You can't be serious ... comparing your F10 535i and the M3

ps Steering "feedback"/"responsiveness"/"communicative" is used correctly here http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1005166

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1020315

Loved his review.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by Canyon_Dancer

Loved his review.

Whose review?

[Canyon_Dancer]

Originally Posted by bm323

Whose review?

James' track review of the F8X.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by bm323

"Communicative" is incorrect; you prefer the steering feel of the hydraulic , not that the EPS is less "communicative", since you're not driving it at its limit.

You can't be serious ... comparing your F10 535i and the M3

With all due respect, your opinion is being stated here as fact rather than as opinion.

To go by your words, ALL steering would be incommunicative/numb when not driving at the limit. Is that how you meant it? Because that's how you said it.

Also, he was comparing the acceleration of a F10 550i to the m3. Why is that eye-rolling worthy? It's an excellent comparison. One is a twin turbocharged 4.4 liter v8 in a heavier vehicle with stonking acceleration; the other is a twin turbocharged 3.0 liter I6 in a lighter vehicle with stonking acceleration. Seems like a nice comparison in terms of butt dyno experience

So...ummmm....your opinions on this matter seem questionable. Perhaps this was posted in a fit of drunkenness?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

With all due respect, your opinion is being stated here as fact rather than as opinion.

To go by your words, ALL steering would be incommunicative/numb when not driving at the limit. Is that how you meant it? Because that's how you said it.

Also, he was comparing the acceleration of a F10 550i to the m3. Why is that eye-rolling worthy? It's an excellent comparison. One is a twin turbocharged 4.4 liter v8 in a heavier vehicle with stonking acceleration; the other is a twin turbocharged 3.0 liter I6 in a lighter vehicle with stonking acceleration. Seems like a nice comparison in terms of butt dyno experience

So...ummmm....your opinions on this matter seem questionable. Perhaps this was posted in a fit of drunkenness?

bm323 has been on my ignore list for years since he compared me with human excrements when I expressed strong dislike of my F10 back in 2010. But yes, I compared the power of my F80 with the power of the N63TU as mounted in the 650 GC, 650 coupe, 650 X-drive, 650 vert, 750i and 750 Li. I spent 8h on Pacific raceway tracking and running them on the drag strip. The S55 feel soooo much more powerful mounted in the M3. And the steering is as numb as they come but very stable, predictable and linear. I drove through torrential down pour today on autobahn with several "Stau" emergency brake situations etc. and the car and steering is really stable and confidence inspiring but the steering is NOT communicative. With the sunroof the car feels large and airy upfront even with black leather. It's a brilliant M5, a worthy successor of the E39 IMO.

One last thing about the steering, comfort mode bring out all the badness in EPS for me with required micro adjustments and sloppy feel. Big thanks to BMW for making Sport default. I don't need to push a single button to get my preferred every day settings of efficient throttle mode and sport steering mode. Well done!

[bm323]

Originally Posted by solstice

After my most spirited drive to date in my F80 ( close to broken in ) today. About 4h through the Italian, Swiss and Austrians alps with numerous Stelvio like serpentine roads and open roads mixed with traffic where I probably overtook ~ 50 times to me the car feels like a close to 500 hp ( crank rated ) car from my butt dyno. ... Very impressive power and I had genuinely fun today, something the F10 for example wasn't able to be on the same/similar roads. The suspension is great.

solstice never drove the N63 "through the Italian, Swiss and Austrians alps with numerous Stelvio like serpentine roads and open roads mixed with traffic where (he) probably overtook ~ 50 times" for the simple reason that his car was the F10 535i, and he may not even have done a ED on his 535i. He clearly could not have have referred to the F10 550i in his post above.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Also, he was comparing the acceleration of a F10 550i to the m3.

Tell me the reason you mentioned F10 550i above

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by bm323

"Communicative" is incorrect; you prefer the steering feel of the hydraulic , not that the EPS is less "communicative", since you're not driving it at its limit.

You can't be serious ... comparing your F10 535i and the M3

ps Steering "feedback"/"responsiveness"/"communicative" is used correctly here http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1005166

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1020315

Are you saying that a steering can't be communicative unless driven at the limit on a track?

Then I would say that this would be a very undesireable steering concept. Development engineers for a car like the M3/4 want to create a steering system that communicates with the driver under normal driving as well as on track. A communicative steering is probably the most important thing for a driver to be able to enjoy driving a car. If you haven't, try driving a Lotus or a car with a purely mechanical steering system and you will most likely start to appreciate how much steering feel and communication can do to enhance the sense of driving, even on a normal drive.

BMW M engineers have also strived to achieve this:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=960886

EPS systems can often convey a somewhat synthetic feel, and this is precisely what we did not want. The driver of the BMW M3 or BMW M4 should have a good sense of the nature of the road surface. He wants to be able to feel when he is driving over a drain cover in the road or when the surface material changes. This steering is responsive enough to convey these impressions very clearly – when we began its development, I didn’t expect it to be able to do this to the extent it does.

Similarly, the driver is able to immediately feel any transitional responses in the steering, the moment he enters the marginal zone when the car begins to skid due to over or understeering. This makes it possible to drive the car very precisely at its limit: not only by DRM racing drivers – although Bruno Spengler and Timo Glock are very impressed with the steering.

PS. The only difference in the links you provided was that they probably agree with your view on the F8x EPS (have you driven the F8x BTW?). Couldn't see that they used the term communicative any differently. They just happened to have a different view on the steering than Solstice. Just like Chris Harris also found the "feel" to be better than in the E92. Things like "feel" and "communicative steering" is a field of engineering where there is a grey line between objective and measureable qualities and subjective opininions (for instance CH liked to have the steering in Comfort, others prefer Sport, that's a area where the subjective opinion of the driver sets them apart). Just like how some like some kinds of food while others really don't. Neither is wrong or right, it's all down to us humans being different.

So, as much as I'd like solstice to say that the steering is great and point him to others saying it is. I can't say the he is wrong, because that's how HE feels.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by bm323

Tell me the reason you mentioned F10 550i above

Because he said N63TU, which would be either the F10 550i or a similar 6 or 7 series variant with that engine.

The N63TU was a -50 series model.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by solstice

And the steering is as numb as they come but very stable, predictable and linear. I drove through torrential down pour today on autobahn with several "Stau" emergency brake situations etc. and the car and steering is really stable and confidence inspiring but the steering is NOT communicative.

Huh, interesting. I only had a brief but very aggressive test drive and I felt the steering was communicative in straight line and moderate turning in sport mode (I spent my time in sport mode steering). I'm not saying mid-engined Porsche communicative, but I personally didn't like how the steering wheel in my old Boxster would turn 30-45 degrees when it hit a frost heave

[JS919]

Impressive DYNO results! Thank you for posting.

I would like to read the thread without picking through an argument about who's OPINION on steering feels is more correct? Everyone is entitled to their opinions and no one's opinion is more correct than another's. If you guys want to argue about steering feel it should probably be on a steering related thread.


o·pin·ion
noun
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

[bm323]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Are you saying that a steering can't be communicative unless driven at the limit on a track? ... They just happened to have a different view on the steering than Solstice. Just like Chris Harris also found the "feel" to be better than in the E92. Things like "feel" and "communicative steering" is a field of engineering where there is a grey line between objective and measureable qualities and subjective opininions

Nope, not in the general sense. But in solstice sense. Relax boss, a thesis is not required to elaborate on Joe's point. He made it abundantly clear (Btw I was waiting for your reply in our last exchange.)

Originally Posted by bm323

"Communicative" is incorrect; you prefer the steering feel of the hydraulic , not that the EPS is less "communicative", since you're not driving it at its limit.[/url]

solstice had been at this for years talking about numb steering, where you were not around. He's referring to steering feel and not the communicativeness of the steering. And yes, I've referred him to Lotus. And yes also, everyone is entitled to his opinion, clearly so in a forum. I'm pointing out matters to show the weight one should have regard to to solstice's opinion.

You referred to steering feel and communicative steering in your quote above, probably interchangeably; see my post above where I pointed out that solstice prefers the steering feel of a hydraulic (with an emoticon).

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Because he said N63TU, which would be either the F10 550i or a similar 6 or 7 series variant with that engine.

The N63TU was a -50 series model.

Yes, of course, but he could not have checked out the N63 on the same/similar roads.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by bm323

Nope, not in the general sense. But in solstice sense. Relax boss, a thesis is not required to elaborate on Joe's point. He made it abundantly clear (Btw I was waiting for your reply in our last exchange.)



solstice had been at this for years talking about numb steering, where you were not around. He's referring to steering feel and not the communicativeness of the steering. And yes, I've referred him to Lotus. And yes also, everyone is entitled to his opinion, clearly so in a forum. I'm pointing out matters to show the weight one should have regard to to solstice's opinion.

You referred to steering feel and communicative steering in your quote above, probably interchangeably; see my post above where I pointed out that solstice prefers the steering feel of a hydraulic (with an emoticon).

Thanks for the "clarification" I guess...

It seems that you have a personal agenda with solstice here, which really isn't relevant to us. I respect his views and don't need someone to tell me what "weight" I should have with regards to his opinion. Nor do I feel that your opinion on his views holds any merit for all of us as a general consensus on what's the "correct" use of these terms (it's not like "feel" and "communicative" is a defined standard like kW and Nm).

If he felt that the F10 steering lacked feel and communication back in 2010, then he wasn't/isn't the only one that feels that way. To me, my previous E60's steering was more responsive and communicative than the steering in my F10. The F10's a great car, but the steering isn't winning any awards as being a very communicative and responsive steering system...

If that put's me in the same boat as solstice, then fine

[Mandi90TT]

Maybe you two could start your own thread, or perhaps take it to PMs? Just a suggestion.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

Maybe you two could start your own thread, or perhaps take it to PMs? Just a suggestion.

I don't think it's about the two of us, but rather about bm323 wanting to "correct" solstice who viewed an opinion on steering feel earlier in this thread.

I have no further to add on the topic here anyway So I'm out of the "steering feel" debate in this thread

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Boss330

I don't think it's about the two of us, but rather about bm323 wanting to "correct" solstice who viewed an opinion on steering feel earlier in this thread.

I have no further to add on the topic here anyway So I'm out of the "steering feel" debate in this thread

Yeah, now and then we all need a reminder that we are all entitled to our opinions on cars and sometime we experience things differently, so thanks for that Boss330. If I thought the steering was communicative I would have said so. My apologies for inserting steering feel into my power comment with the resulting OT discussion. I'll try to keep the comments cleaner and focused on the topic. I guess I was just excited over the epic drive through the alps and needed to share in one go
Sorry to the OP and Dave.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Nice!