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View Poll Results: S65 option or S55 standart ?
YES ... I would choose the S65 if an option at this price would be availiable 90 45.69%
NO ... I would choose the standart S55 engine 107 54.31%
Voters: 197. You may not vote on this poll

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      12-16-2013, 06:49 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
its not a inferior engine. its what the engine stands for is what i dislike. what i said about the cut costing is far from a opinion its a simple fact BTW.

maybe its BMW fault for ever making a S65 and S85. spoiling us
Again, not everyone thinks the S65 was the epitome of M engine manufacturing.

No one is disagreeing that the S55 is partly a result of saving cost. As for the engine being "cheaper", that's been debated in another thread and when you throw in all the ancillary costs associated with it, it's probably close in cost to a S65.

The fact that you feel it's your "need" to make sure everyone understands that the S55 is result of compromise, is again, showing insecurity on your part.
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      12-16-2013, 06:53 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Again, not everyone thinks the S65 was the epitome of M engine manufacturing.



The fact that you feel it's your "need" to make sure everyone understands that the S55 is result of compromise, is again, showing insecurity on your part.
I see where you get that view from. haha.

the problem with me is that i am not a BMW enthusiast i am a car enthusiast. there are a lot of BMW guys around here. who think anything BMW is gold. i got a E92 M3 because the engine was 80% the reason.
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      12-16-2013, 07:20 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Earl View Post
This time around they have really dropped the ball.
Yeah, most people here don't feel that way. Pretty much everyone agrees that the F8X is going to be a much better handling M3 then previous generations. Now, the engine, that's all subjective honestly on whether it's "better" based on what people use as factors to base their opinion upon.

Most of what you mentioned would be considered electronic "toys". And BMW wasn't the first or sole manufacturer to release most of those items into their cars.

Face it, the F8X is a new chassis that is stiffer, lighter, and has features the E9X doesn't.

It is a generational leap forward. All those electronic gadgets you talk about only improve upon a well-designed car. They don't make the car.

And the fact that you can't hide your disdain for this car highlights your bias.
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      12-16-2013, 07:43 PM   #70
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I'm sorry, but this thread is now beyond pointless. It all reeks of "my dad can beat up your dad", quite frankly.
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      12-16-2013, 07:46 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Earl View Post
Compared to E46 to E9X, a lot of the changes are "easy" upgrades. You should have watched the M3 videos made 5-6 years ago and pay close attention to the engine design. A lot of the features were "first" timers for E90. EDC, DSC, MDM, Dual Clutch Transmission, and M mode integration with iDrive (not to mention iDrive and Navigation itself).

Now let's take a look at F80. DCT? We already had one. Aside from the torque spec, I don't see any changes. I wouldn't call the 2nd/3rd gen an improvement over the 1st gen, it's merely a requirement for the new turbo engine. EDC? Yep it was there, just tuned. MDM? Yep, it was there as well, just a software tune. DSC? Yep. Am I missing anything? Yep the brakes, yeah I'll give you that the carbon ceramic brakes are cool, who is going to order them for 9.5k though? If you want to spend 10k on brakes, you can go crazy with brembo and it will be more than enough.

All the "improvements" the new car claims over the old one are "tweaks". Carbon fiber crankshaft, carbon fiber trunk, carbon fiber engine bay rod, carbon fiber this carbon fiber that. There is nothing revolutionary about the new car. When E9X came out, people's jaw dropped. Every single feature I mentioned above were never offered in any M car before not to mention any other competitor's car. Just go back to 2007 for a second and imagine the impact these features created. Fast forward to 2013, do you feel the same way? I certainly don't and many people agree (rightfully so). They had to do significant R&D on these features and invent them from scratch. Customizing an existing engine by improving the turbos is one thing, designing a brand new engine with a different bore and stroke and an entirely new spec is another. Taking an existing part and making it in carbon fiber and calling it weight reduction is also not that exciting.

So compared to those changes they released in E9X, what they are coming up with this time does feel like an "upgrade".

This time around they have really dropped the ball. The M5 was one thing and we all watched the car get bad reviews time after time, but now the M3? It feels really sad.
Not even sure where to start will all of this... Most of the things you mention above as being "ground breaking" for the E9x are software - DSC, MDM, M-mode (same thing as MDM) integrated with iDrive (not even sure what that means.) Big deal, some programming tweaks and DSC was not new at all. DCT was a new transmission but nothing particularly revolutionary in the industry, not to mention all the issues it had upon release. (Disclaimer - I actually prefer SMG) EDC - again, nothing new at all and more of a luxury feature to help soften the car compared to the E46 while still being able to dial in some stiffness when wanted. The S65 was the biggest accomplishment by far with the E9x and that was a product of the development of the S85.

As for your references to the F10 M5 reviews, how can you possibly suggest that will have any influence on or reflect in any way on reviews that will be done ~6 months from now? Are you that depressed about the new M3/4?
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      12-16-2013, 09:09 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
couple things i wanna touch here with you.

first of all. there is nothing like taking a high revving motor with a exhaust through the gears while listening to the engine just scream. ever driven a Ferrari before ? go drive one and get back into your modded 335i with a I6 engine. you will find the car lacks in sound and special feel. i think you shouldn't just brush off the S65 like you do. there is still something special there. as a guy who loves the S65, i can still respect modded M4s and 335is for the power. and you should respect the S65 for the sound and high revving nature. both are "cool" in there own way.

honestly have you been around a lot of cars ? like at meets and stuff? do you find your 335i to be a really good sounding motor ? (honest question)

to me if i was going to mod. i would go grab a corvette. make more power cheaper. not to mention the sound.
Wow, my very own thread

Let's make something very clear: I really like the E9X M3. In fact, I love everything about it short the engine. I have tried to reason it out and basically force myself to buy one, but I just can't get over the relative lack of torque and performance that I'm expecting out of my daily driver. I do think the S65 is cool, but it just doesn't keep me interested in the long run. To me the seat of the pants performance is a let down. Granted, I am used to driving my 700+ hp GT-R, but the 335 with a few mods puts a lot more smiles on my face on the street than the M3 does. The track is a different animal all together, but the 335 and my new M3 are both going to be daily drivers that'll likely never see the track while the GT-R becomes the 1000+ hp race car.

Some of you guys may think that having a high revving V8 is like having a "cheap Ferrari" or maybe puts you closer to owning that dream exotic and I'm glad you like that, but if I wanted a Ferrari or Lambo, I'd get one (actually, I'd get a McLaren 12C, and still might). I prefer all out performance (with some respect to the dollar amount) than I do sound, or cache, etc. The S65 sounds glorious, but I find that gets old when it doesn't have the "bite" to back up the bark (relatively speaking.) Top end performance is ok, but the lack of mid and low range power really kind of sours the deal for me on regular roads. M3s feel more "special" as a whole than any 335 due to a lot of changes other than just the engine. The bushings transmit more road feel, etc. The 335 is boring in this regard, but I put up with it because I'm happy with the car otherwise.

I have been around, tuned, and raced high end performance cars my whole life.
I don't think my 335, or any BMW 6 cylinder is in the same league as the S65 aurally (few engines are, really), but that is of almost no concern for me. I didn't buy my 335 for sound. I bought it for its performance on the street, where it shines. 450+ ft/lbs of torque at the wheels at 3k rpm is quite entertaining. The S55 doesn't sound nearly as nice as the S65 either, but again it is a tradeoff that I have absolutely no problems making for the performance advantages.

My whole point when this got started was not to rag on the S65, but to say that the N54 is a very, very overbuilt engine for 300 hp. The rods, wrist pins, and ring lands are designed to take a LOT more power than 300 crank hp. The S55 will almost certainly be built with much, much higher quality, stronger parts than the N54, and should be good to power levels well above the established 700 whp (800+ crank hp) that the stock internals N54 powered vehicles are seeing now. Additionally, we already know what turbos the S55 has and while they aren't as large as say the Rob Beck setup available for the N54, they are substantially larger than the stock N54 turbos which have been pushed to nearly 500 wtq, and 450 whp themselves. Once the S55 mod scene has a little maturity, I think it'll be fairly straight forward to hit well above 500 hp/tq at the wheels on the stock turbos, but we shall see.

I'm sure a lot of you prev. gen M3 guys will disagree, and that's fine. I'll get off the S65's back to keep the peace. The F8X generation M3 finally fixed my reservations with the drivetrain that I've had and I'm very, very excited to get my car and see if it actually lives up to my admittedly lofty expectations
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      12-17-2013, 02:08 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
listen i post a few comments. and people keep quoting me, so i respond.

my whole thing is that i want to make sure everyone knows why BMW went with a S55 engine. i want to make it clear. because you have to many people coming thinking BMW went with a S55 because its "better" . when i know BMW would rather be making what they have made for years in M cars. if we can come to a agreement on that i would stop posting. the engine is to cost cut and get better MPG. ok? are we good?

with that said. there is a possibility i would get a M4. It depends on what the competition is going to make . if they are all going to put out small displacement 6 banger turbos. then i will have to get over this shit.

i love M cars. i really hope everything i say is wrong. i hope this car is going to sound really good and give a special feel to it. i like the price point of M cars also.
Your points are valid Ezio. The redundancy however, is obnoxious.

You're not getting the F80. You need an N/A high-revving V8 in your life - as anyone coming to this forum for F80/82 info has read several dozen times.
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      12-17-2013, 02:58 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
...You S65 guys might as well start getting it out of your systems, but the F8X M3 is going to decimate any performance records the E9X chassis M3 has set, just like the E46 and E36 platforms did as well. Mark my words.....
I like how you left out the decimation that occured between with the S54 when the S65 came out. (see link in my sig)

So the 0-150 mph arrived 8.4 seconds sooner with the E9x than the E46 M3, care to make a prediction on the 0-150 decimation that will occur between the E9x and F8x M3's? Another 8sec lopped off perhaps? Or will the 'decimation' you speak of be more modest.....then we can bookmark this decimation prediction. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
...My whole point when this got started was not to rag on the S65....
REALLY? lol Yet you first couple posts state...

Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
....The E46 M3 engine was stronger than the S65 even..
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
...the S65 is weak relative to other M motors BMW has produced...
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
......A 600 whp S65 appears to be a time bomb......
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
.....A 700 whp stock S65 would maybe last for a single pull.....
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81 View Post
...the F8X M3 is going to decimate any performance records the E9X chassis M3 has set.
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      12-17-2013, 04:13 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by I am Earl View Post
Lighter my *** now, the car isn't doing 0-60 in 3.9s because it's 80kg lighter, it's doing that because of the 18 psi twin turbo 425hp/405 lb/ft engine. .
I think it's also because it has shorter gear ratios
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      12-17-2013, 05:29 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I'm sorry, but this thread is now beyond pointless. It all reeks of "my dad can beat up your dad", quite frankly.


Is the current M3s 4.0 V8 > than the Mustang's Boss V8?
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      12-17-2013, 05:42 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by tdizzle View Post


Is the current M3s 4.0 V8 > than the Mustang's Boss V8?
8400 rpm > 7500 rpm.
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      12-17-2013, 05:53 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdizzle View Post


Is the current M3s 4.0 V8 > than the Mustang's Boss V8?
was it made to be better than a BOSS? back in 2007 that S65 was KING.

lets be honest.
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      12-17-2013, 06:11 PM   #79
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Quote:


Quote:
Originally Posted by A418t81

...You S65 guys might as well start getting it out of your systems, but the F8X M3 is going to decimate any performance records the E9X chassis M3 has set, just like the E46 and E36 platforms did as well. Mark my words.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you View Post
I like how you left out the decimation that occured between with the S54 when the S65 came out. (see link in my sig)

So the 0-150 mph arrived 8.4 seconds sooner with the E9x than the E46 M3, care to make a prediction on the 0-150 decimation that will occur between the E9x and F8x M3's? Another 8sec lopped off perhaps? Or will the 'decimation' you speak of be more modest.....then we can bookmark this decimation prediction. Thanks.
Eehhh, he didn't leave out the E9x... His post clearly stated:

"performance records the E9X chassis M3 has set, just like the E46 and E36 platforms did as well"

In fact referring to the performance records set by; E36, E46 AND E9x!!! No leaving out of the records set by the E9x as far as I can see...
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      12-17-2013, 06:18 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
was it made to be better than a BOSS? back in 2007 that S65 was KING.

lets be honest.
The 4,3 V8 in the Ferrari F430 had a higher specific output with it's 490hp. Also had a redline at 8500rpm. And that was a "old" engine in 2007, since it came in 2004...

Let's be honest. The S65 was, and is, a great engine. But it's not the KING. Not by a mile... Today, the 458 and 991 GT3 have engines that rev to 9000rpm and have higher specific output. But even the 3 year old F430 engine (in 2007) had a higher redline and higher specific output...
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      12-17-2013, 06:45 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
The 4,3 V8 in the Ferrari F430 had a higher specific output with it's 490hp. Also had a redline at 8500rpm. And that was a "old" engine in 2007, since it came in 2004...

Let's be honest. The S65 was, and is, a great engine. But it's not the KING. Not by a mile... Today, the 458 and 991 GT3 have engines that rev to 9000rpm and have higher specific output. But even the 3 year old F430 engine (in 2007) had a higher redline and higher specific output...
But to even be mentioned with those cars is rather incredible for a car that started in the $50ks and THAT is what made the E9X so darn "special". I doubt the M4 or S55 will be granted the same honor. I still want an F80.
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      12-17-2013, 07:05 PM   #82
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      12-18-2013, 12:19 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
its not a inferior engine. its what the engine stands for is what i dislike. what i said about the cut costing is far from a opinion its a simple fact BTW.

the sound of the engine is more of a opinion based thing. but the way the engine is made is purely fact based.

maybe its BMW fault for ever making a S65 and S85. spoiling us
That's funny.
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      12-18-2013, 12:58 PM   #84
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Fast forward to 2013, do you feel the same way? I certainly don't and many people agree (rightfully so).
Hello! This is reality. If by many people you mean you and Ezio then you are right.

Now quit your whining.
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      12-18-2013, 01:13 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Let's be honest. The S65 was, and is, a great engine. But it's not the KING. Not by a mile... Today, the 458 and 991 GT3 have engines that rev to 9000rpm and have higher specific output. But even the 3 year old F430 engine (in 2007) had a higher redline and higher specific output...
And none of these engines you mentioned are as impressive as the Honda S2000's F20C, which is a simple 2 liter 4 cyl, putting out 120hp/liter, and reving to 9,000rpms, with no known bearing issues. That car came out like in 1999.
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      12-18-2013, 02:06 PM   #86
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And none of these engines you mentioned are as impressive as the Honda S2000's F20C, which is a simple 2 liter 4 cyl, putting out 120hp/liter, and reving to 9,000rpms, with no known bearing issues. That car came out like in 1999.
And a reliable 120hp / liter 9k rpm 4 banger is a Sunday walk in the park for Honda. They have made reliable street bikes running +150hp / liter since at least the 1980s redlining above 12k rpm. But in the world of V8s the street engines spinning over 8k rpm is very limited.

Honda is to me the biggest disappointment in the auto world today. So much experience, so much know-how and so much successful history just wasted year after year on building über boring pedestrian grey non enthusiast cars. Shame on you Honda.

Last edited by solstice; 12-18-2013 at 02:12 PM.
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      12-18-2013, 02:49 PM   #87
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Honda is to me the biggest disappointment in the auto world today. So much experience, so much know-how and so much successful history just wasted year after year on building über boring pedestrian grey non enthusiast cars. Shame on you Honda.
+1! They can't even revive the NSX. They've entirely given up on performance, and are instead focused on bland money makers for the masses.
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      12-18-2013, 03:03 PM   #88
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+1! They can't even revive the NSX. They've entirely given up on performance, and are instead focused on bland money makers for the masses.
There is some light at the end of the tunnel though. Honda is re-entering Formula 1 in 2015, something that often bode well. For BMW it coincided with the S85 and S65. For Toyota it was the LFA and a more driver oriented GS.

When BMW left F1 we got the F-series...

It's likely not so much the result of any shared development as an indicator of the managements interests and focus for the brand.

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