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      10-29-2015, 07:26 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
BMW develops their own. GM buys it from the supplier. Not sure about Porsche.
Doesn't each manufacture still need to make calibration alterations per vehicle model to account for weight, ride quality, target performance marks, etc.?

Like, I would assume that the algorithm would be different for the R8 than the TTRS, and Corvette's different from Camaro?
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      10-30-2015, 01:29 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by dmnc02 View Post
So, going back to why BMW did not use adaptive dampers on the M4 GTS, is it also possible that ZF did not offer an adaptive coilover system like the Bilstein one used in the GT3 RS and developing the software for the Bilstein dampers would have been too involved? Or is it easy to port the software from one brand of adaptive dampers to another?
Another VERY likely reason (Id be willing to put my next pay check on it! lol is that an active dampers full coilover set-up wouldn't of given much of an advantage (if any at all) on its Nurburgring lap time over the passive coilover set up to justify the additional costs, engineering and tooling for the F8X's, pure & simple. As mentioned EDC's have little to no advantage in the real world on the track which is what the GTS was designed for* (a la rollcage & all). And F1 didn't ban active dampers bc they were fastest on the track LOL. They did so because they're much harder to regulate team to team (obviously) and certain teams had too much of an advantage over others and the technology took away even more of the driver involvement and skill out of the equation and artificially exaggerated the delta between new and existing teams. (teams with years more experience on certain tracks could literally alter (and DID) suspension geometry from the pits from the feedback & telemetry in real-time being evaluated without even the need for the drivers input. It wasn't because "active dampers were faster than passive suspensions everytime in any set-up" as a couple were insinuating.. which is why in the following year to that ban lap times were faster still on ALL the tracks in F1 without them ...I'll say it again, your biggest real advantage with EDC tech on F8X's in the real world is better *ride comfort* on rougher street roads (comfort & sport options) while still maintaining the great handling... less comfort compromises (which is important to many "yuppies" who buy these cars, understandable). For outright speed it's negligible. And if those whom question whether or not to order the passive set-up actually *experienced* how flawless the ride on the passive set-ups are (while still maintaining their aggressive track tune handling wise) the EDC wouldn't be worth it to many more that aren't easily sold on marketing hype and gimmickry (bmw core customers lol). (the $500 M3/4 "iPhone station/charger option" being a perfect example)

My first experience with the M4 was actually with the EDC on the track* I ordered mine later with the passive after experiencing it too later.. waste of money as (for me*) the passive set-up rides phenomenal out of the factory and when I'm ready for 'outright speed' I'll put the extra grand saved toward a fully adjustable coilover set up like PSS10's or JRZ's (i.e. a REAL suspension/setup for the track which will required you to junk your entire factory EDC setup, including the wiring/circuitry/etc..)

Last edited by BMW M4 PWR; 10-30-2015 at 02:56 AM..
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      10-30-2015, 07:56 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by BMW M4 PWR View Post
As mentioned EDC's have little to no advantage in the real world on the track which is what the GTS was designed for*
Yes, you have mentioned this before in your earlier post, but do you have any reference to back up this statement?
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      10-30-2015, 08:33 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M4 PWR View Post
Another VERY likely reason (Id be willing to put my next pay check on it! lol is that an active dampers full coilover set-up wouldn't of given much of an advantage (if any at all) on its Nurburgring lap time over the passive coilover set up to justify the additional costs, engineering and tooling for the F8X's, pure & simple. As mentioned EDC's have little to no advantage in the real world on the track which is what the GTS was designed for* (a la rollcage & all). And F1 didn't ban active dampers bc they were fastest on the track LOL. They did so because they're much harder to regulate team to team (obviously) and certain teams had too much of an advantage over others and the technology took away even more of the driver involvement and skill out of the equation and artificially exaggerated the delta between new and existing teams. (teams with years more experience on certain tracks could literally alter (and DID) suspension geometry from the pits from the feedback & telemetry in real-time being evaluated without even the need for the drivers input. It wasn't because "active dampers were faster than passive suspensions everytime in any set-up" as a couple were insinuating.. which is why in the following year to that ban lap times were faster still on ALL the tracks in F1 without them ...I'll say it again, your biggest real advantage with EDC tech on F8X's in the real world is better *ride comfort* on rougher street roads (comfort & sport options) while still maintaining the great handling... less comfort compromises (which is important to many "yuppies" who buy these cars, understandable). For outright speed it's negligible. And if those whom question whether or not to order the passive set-up actually *experienced* how flawless the ride on the passive set-ups are (while still maintaining their aggressive track tune handling wise) the EDC wouldn't be worth it to many more that aren't easily sold on marketing hype and gimmickry (bmw core customers lol). (the $500 M3/4 "iPhone station/charger option" being a perfect example)

My first experience with the M4 was actually with the EDC on the track* I ordered mine later with the passive after experiencing it too later.. waste of money as (for me*) the passive set-up rides phenomenal out of the factory and when I'm ready for 'outright speed' I'll put the extra grand saved toward a fully adjustable coilover set up like PSS10's or JRZ's (i.e. a REAL suspension/setup for the track which will required you to junk your entire factory EDC setup, including the wiring/circuitry/etc..)
Adaptive suspension was banned from F-1 because it could provide an unfair advantage to those who got it right. You are saying this yourself. That means it is a superior system. That is what I implied with my slightly sarcastic statement (made the cars "too fast"). The reason latter F-1 cars were able to beat the times of the dynamic suspension era is simply due to the general progress of technology, not because a static suspension is superior.

In a sense, you are right in saying that adaptive dampers provide less advantages when compared to a statically adjustable coil over system. The latter can be fine tuned depending on spring pre-load and which track is being run, therefore the damping is closer to the ideal for the specific track being driven. The adaptive dampers can therefore provide less of an advantage. But they remain a superior system nonetheless. I am pretty sure Porsche did not put addaptive dampers on the GT3 to make it more comfortable on the street .

My guess is that BMW skipped on the adaptive dampers on the GTS because they could make it fast enough without them and hence save on the development cost.

We have the privilege of having a professional chassis engineer on our forum. His opinion is certainly wothwhile considering .
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Last edited by CanAutM3; 10-30-2015 at 10:19 AM..
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      10-30-2015, 10:41 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Adaptive suspension was banned from F-1 because it could provide an unfair advantage to those who got it right. You are saying this yourself. That means it is a superior system. That is what I implied with my slightly sarcastic statement (made the cars "too fast"). The reason latter F-1 cars were able to beat the times of the dynamic suspension era is simply due to the general progress of technology, not because a static suspension is superior.

In a sense, you are right in saying that adaptive dampers provide less advantages when compared to a statically adjustable coil over system. The latter can be fine tuned depending on spring pre-load and which track is being run, therefore the damping is closer to the ideal for the specific track being driven. The adaptive dampers can therefore provide less of an advantage. But they remain a superior system nonetheless. I am pretty sure Porsche did not put addaptive dampers on the GT3 to make it more comfortable on the street .

My guess is that BMW skipped on the adaptive dampers on the GTS because they could make it fast enough without them and hence save on the development cost..
We're saying almost exactly the same thing, essentially we agree. The M4 GTS isn't getting any faster with EDC on the track (and it's a track model) hence not worth the effort on that set-up...

As far as the porsche gt3, porsche using EDC on that particular model means nothing to denounce tradition coilover technology abilities relative to EDC. It's not apples to apples and if we wanted to go there I could say many production cars a third the price have been handing porsche their a$$'s on the track to the point of embarrassment (completely raining on Porsches once dominance left & right) in the lap time department at the ring & tracks all over the world. They are not the "be all end all" marque they use to be decades ago.. (ps: the fastest track record holders are still 911 rsr cup cars & GTP cars from yesteryear which all run static coilovers
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      10-30-2015, 11:47 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M4 PWR View Post
We're saying almost exactly the same thing, essentially we agree. The M4 GTS isn't getting any faster with EDC on the track (and it's a track model) hence not worth the effort on that set-up...
We don't quite agree here. I said "fast enough". Meaning that the GTS could have been faster with adaptive dampers and BMW may have decided that the incremental development costs were too high especially considering the low volumes of the GTS.
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      10-30-2015, 12:00 PM   #73
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It's ridiculous to say there is no advantage to having edc on a track car. A damper that is tuned for the track and able to adjust automatically to road conditions at the millisecond level will clearly be advantageous, all else equal.

Whether the difference is measurable in laptops or not depends on the track. Example: I was at my local track with the Porsche Club recently, and was talking to an instructor about my line through a particular corner. He insisted that you have to stay well inside of the traditional line entering the corner, otherwise there was a quick dip followed by a small swell that would upset the car and possibly cause a loss of traction and a spin.

I was taking a wide line there and didn't know what he was talking about, so he went out with me the next session to show me. We took my line and I saw him brace for impact, but we went right over it with no issue. I could feel a bit of a bump, but the car didn't get upset at all. He was surprised, and said that any other car he had been in could not handle that particular bump without least a bit of ass puckering.

So was my line faster? Who knows. Is it safer? Yes. Does it open up options for passing and dealing with on track situation? For sure (assuming wheel-wheel racing anyway).

Adaptive dampers definitely have benefits on a track car. It just depends on the track and situation.
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      10-30-2015, 12:03 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
It's ridiculous to say there is no advantage to having edc on a track car. A damper that is tuned for the track and able to adjust automatically to road conditions at the millisecond level will clearly be advantageous, all else equal.

Whether the difference is measurable in laptops or not depends on the track. Example: I was at my local track with the Porsche Club recently, and was talking to an instructor about my line through a particular corner. He insisted that you have to stay well inside of the traditional line entering the corner, otherwise there was a quick dip followed by a small swell that would upset the car and possibly cause a loss of traction and a spin.

I was taking a wide line there and didn't know what he was talking about, so he went out with me the next session to show me. We took my line and I saw him brace for impact, but we went right over it with no issue. I could feel a bit of a bump, but the car didn't get upset at all. He was surprised, and said that any other car he had been in could not handle that particular bump without least a bit of ass puckering.

So was my line faster? Who knows. Is it safer? Yes. Does it open up options for passing and dealing with on track situation? For sure (assuming wheel-wheel racing anyway).

Adaptive dampers definitely have benefits on a track car. It just depends on the track and situation.
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      10-30-2015, 12:25 PM   #75
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Dope example
Are you going to elaborate?
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      10-30-2015, 02:37 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRZ06
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
BMW develops their own. GM buys it from the supplier. Not sure about Porsche.
Doesn't each manufacture still need to make calibration alterations per vehicle model to account for weight, ride quality, target performance marks, etc.?

Like, I would assume that the algorithm would be different for the R8 than the TTRS, and Corvette's different from Camaro?
Yes. Every car needs to be individually calibrated.
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      09-10-2016, 12:06 PM   #77
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how to tell if a bmw 3 series is equipped with standard or adaptive m suspension ?
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      09-10-2016, 03:27 PM   #78
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I have adaptive and to be honest I'm very close to taking the decision to fit the Ohlins Road and Track coilovers instead. It's interesting to read that the passive suspension is set between Sport and Sport+ in terms of stiffness. This is the point I would like to be able to set the active to. Sport+ is too stiff for a bumpy road and Sport lacks good rebound control. I find the Active very frustrating as there is a constant temptation to mess with the settings rather than just enjoy the drive. Sport + feels good for a few corners but then chatters and loses grip over the bumps and I drop it back to sport.

I've test driven the M2 and that suspension feels like it is set between sport and sport+ and it drives very well.

I would try to test drive both passive and active and make a decision before you buy the car. I find the Adaptive is nice to put in comfort to cruise in traffic but it feels like a compromise as soon as you start driving hard.
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      09-11-2016, 07:56 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smanne View Post
how to tell if a bmw 3 series is equipped with standard or adaptive m suspension ?
Look near the gear shift lever. To the left of it are three buttons for throttle, suspension and steering. If car has adaptive suspension, there will be a shock button in between the steering and throttle sensitivity buttons. If standard, that middle button will be blank.
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      09-22-2016, 11:02 PM   #80
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From the concept of view, the adaptive coilover is absolutely better than the passive one, but if we look into the reality world, to transfer the ideal concept to the real product, the performance of it is still limitted to the cost/price!
For the specific purpose, let's say to racing in the Nordschleife circle, M4 with the OEM adaptive coilover will never be faster than the same car but equip KW clubsport or even Ohlins R&T with appropriate setting! But if you exit the racing circle immediately and then go for a bumpy road, then you can certainly feel the convenience of the adaptive coilover with no doubt.
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      03-16-2019, 02:42 PM   #81
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Adaptive M Suspension a must have?

Browsing current inventory, the M4 I am looking at doesn't have Adaptive M Suspension. I've always had it in the past... Will I regret not having it?
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      03-16-2019, 03:27 PM   #82
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Quote:
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Browsing current inventory, the M4 I am looking at doesn't have Adaptive M Suspension. I've always had it in the past... Will I regret not having it?
Depends on your comfort preference
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      03-16-2019, 03:39 PM   #83
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I have the passive suspension on my M4 - ordered it that way and have been totally satisfied. There have been a couple times that I would have liked to have a Comfort choice, but not enough to where I wish I had gotten the Adaptive.
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      06-22-2020, 06:36 AM   #84
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Iím wondering when I was looking to buy Used f80 m3 I couldnít find any with adaptive suspension just m performance suspension.im curious if itís only few 1000$ dollars extra why people didnít get it.it seems like something good to have..I just gave up and found an m3 I liked and bought it but ofcourse it doesnít have adaptive suspension.i feel my ride is more stiff than x5m package I had but yet again it is suppose to be sporty not luxury car and I always remember bmws being more stiff on road .i drove m3,m5 was all same feeling.i donít mind stiff feeling altho can be abit annoying if roads are too bumpy but u get used to it..I guess my question is why most ppl didnít get it when they ordered their m3ís from dealership.🤔 Iím annoyed that I donít have aadaptive suspension but in my case I had no choice I couldnt find any for sale I been reading a lot about the differences and Most ppl said they didnít feel much of a difference only few times on very bumpy roads

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      01-19-2021, 11:53 AM   #85
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This thread is a bit rusty, but i wonder.

When adaptive suspension is more capable, why doesnt the m4 gts have adaptive?

Myself i bought a 2015 austin gelb m4 without adaptive suspension, and i really do not miss it.
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      01-19-2021, 04:21 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico012357 View Post
This thread is a bit rusty, but i wonder.

When adaptive suspension is more capable, why doesnt the m4 gts have adaptive?

Myself i bought a 2015 austin gelb m4 without adaptive suspension, and i really do not miss it.
Maybe you should ask yourself why the 911GT3/GT2RS have an adaptive suspension...
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      01-19-2021, 05:12 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico012357 View Post
This thread is a bit rusty, but i wonder.

When adaptive suspension is more capable, why doesnt the m4 gts have adaptive?

Myself i bought a 2015 austin gelb m4 without adaptive suspension, and i really do not miss it.
M4 GTS has very unique KW adjustable suspension. the CS models have adaptive suspension.

it really depends on the purpose. performance cars have adaptive suspension since many of these vehicles are dual purpose, they drive on the road and on the track, so you try to get the best of both worlds with the ability to adjust on the fly.

The one variable that does not adjust is spring rate
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      01-19-2021, 05:38 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico012357 View Post
This thread is a bit rusty, but i wonder.

When adaptive suspension is more capable, why doesn't the m4 gts have adaptive?
Marketing and development cost. The GTS had to have something that would be percieved as "racecar" in order to justify its ridiculous price tag. A KW coil-over does the job. Developing a track-level adaptive suspension would have been very expensive.

Not every adaptive suspension is automatically better than every passive suspension, but all things being equal, an adaptive suspension significantly improves the ride and handling trade-off that the engineers can achieve. There's a reason that nearly every sports or luxury car on the planet above $60k uses adaptive suspension.

What I will say is that the adaptive suspension as implemented and tuned on the 2015 F8X isn't that great. I generally don't think BMW gets it completely right except on the CS models.

To that end, some colleagues and I took a few different M3's out for a comparison drive on our local evaluation route back in October . . . there were two 2008 E92's, one with passive and one with adaptive. The adaptive one was slightly better than the passive one for both ride and handling but I would have been happy with either.

Similarly, I think you'll be fine with a passive F8X.
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