Engine braking with 6MT?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by myzmak

But I'm not really doing that. When engine braking, I am really just slowing - not to a complete stop or suddenly or dramatically reducing my speed, but gradually reducing my speed to match the speed of traffic. It is the suddenness of the brake light that causes most people to jam their brakes and create the traffic jam. Sure, if someone is following me too close they might hit their brakes, but then they are an idiot and nothing will stop that. But if they are just moving with traffic and leaving a proper buffer, they should also slow down. Drivers do that all the time - if the car in front of you starts driving a little slower, you will naturally slow down yourself. If it starts moving a little faster, you naturally speed up a bit to keep pace. If you see a brake light, though, most people hit their own brakes. That is where I differ from most people - if I have room (and I leave room) I anticipate the slowing (by noting the string of lights coming on 4 cars ahead and the fact they are still moving, not stopping) and start slowing so that the guy behind me doesn't get the sudden FLASH of a light to cause him to hit his own lights. Rather, he just slows himself to keep pace - if I do it right, we both do it at a gradual/smooth pace and the folks behind us carry on like that for as long as it can last.

Not my experience but whatever works for you
My experience is that people stab the brakes when surprised by a braking car even if that braking is very gradual or just maintains speed while they are increasing speed, when just tapping the brakes and lighting up the brake lights they judge the braking of the car in front and if mild they also tap the brake since this is how people drive all the time. Brake lights always come on when cars go downhill while stabbing is rarer.

And you will for sure invite tailgaters which I can't stand.

[TheFlyingMouse]

After I downshift to apply engine brakes, I usually push the foot brake in enough to take up the slack in the calipers if I see that the car behind me is closing the distance. This activates the brake lights so that they know I'm slowing down, without actually applying my brakes when it is not necessary. I hold that pedal for about a second, then lift my foot until I need the brakes. Best of both worlds.

This technique enhances safety because the brake pedal is covered, and the car is kept in a nice predictable dynamic state. The front tires are already partially loaded up because of the engine braking, so when you need to add brakes before a sharp turn, the suspension does not get unsettled.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by TheFlyingMouse

After I downshift to apply engine brakes, I usually push the foot brake in enough to take up the slack in the calipers if I see that the car behind me is closing the distance. This activates the brake lights so that they know I'm slowing down, without actually applying my brakes when it is not necessary. I hold that pedal for about a second, then lift my foot until I need the brakes. Best of both worlds.

This technique enhances safety because the brake pedal is covered, and the car is kept in a nice predictable dynamic state. The front tires are already partially loaded up because of the engine braking, so when you need to add brakes before a sharp turn, the suspension does not get unsettled.

I think we all do a little of both to be honest, it's the more aggressive high rpm engine braking that was mentioned to overcome the relative mild engine brake of the S55 that I for one is rarely using while the OP and others are in favour of. I don't think it's really "wrong" but I also don't think it's best practice now a days mainly because brakes are so good and durable but also due to some other reasons.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by solstice

Not my experience but whatever works for you
My experience is that people stab the brakes when surprised by a braking car even if that braking is very gradual or just maintains speed while they are increasing speed, when just tapping the brakes and lighting up the brake lights they judge the braking of the car in front and if mild they also tap the brake since this is how people drive all the time. Brake lights always come on when cars go downhill while stabbing is rarer.

And you will for sure invite tailgaters which I can't stand.

If I get tailgaiters, I will stab the brake suddenly - usually gets them to back off. But I find I get fewer of them when I am keeping the flow of traffic smooth than when I am speeding up and slowing down jerkily (like those who brake too much tend to do)

My point on the downhill was less about the traffic jam (that was more about flowing traffic and how to bring it to a halt). Downhill my issue is the inconsistent speed created by coasting/braking/coasting/braking.

I prefer to drive at a steady clip by gearing down to hold my speed rather than riding the brake. Sometimes it cant be helped, but usually it can.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by myzmak

If I get tailgaiters, I will stab the brake suddenly - usually gets them to back off. But I find I get fewer of them when I am keeping the flow of traffic smooth than when I am speeding up and slowing down jerkily (like those who brake too much tend to do)

My point on the downhill was less about the traffic jam (that was more about flowing traffic and how to bring it to a halt). Downhill my issue is the inconsistent speed created by coasting/braking/coasting/braking.

I prefer to drive at a steady clip by gearing down to hold my speed rather than riding the brake. Sometimes it cant be helped, but usually it can.

I think that's the key there. The reluctance or fear of riding the brake. It was in grained into manual drivers like us that this is bad since it used to be. Today it's not an issue. I've never needed new pads or rotors on my cars that I swap at around warranty expiration ( years and miles for expiration usually coincide quite well for me ). I use my brakes when and as much as I want with no concerns
Again, keep in mind that pretty much all automatics work this way with little engine brake.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by solstice

I think that's the key there. The reluctance or fear of riding the brake. It was in grained into manual drivers like us that this is bad since it used to be. Today it's not an issue. I've never needed new pads or rotors on my cars that I swap at around warranty expiration ( years and miles for expiration usually coincide quite well for me ). I use my brakes when and as much as I want with no concerns

Downhill braking, yeah, I acknowledge that is certainly a part of it.

But, again, it is also more about the smoothness of controlling my speed (even downhill and riding the brake one will be much less consistent on speed than if one uses gear selection to control speed) and, in flowing traffic, about keeping the traffic flow.

I believe it was Jeremy Clarkson that said anyone who used their brakes on a flowing motorway should be shot in the head......that may be a bit extreme, but it would remedy the problem.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by myzmak

Downhill braking, yeah, I acknowledge that is certainly a part of it.

But, again, it is also more about the smoothness of controlling my speed (even downhill and riding the brake one will be much less consistent on speed than if one uses gear selection to control speed) and, in flowing traffic, about keeping the traffic flow.

I believe it was Jeremy Clarkson that said anyone who used their brakes on a flowing motorway should be shot in the head......that may be a bit extreme, but it would remedy the problem.

I don't think before moving here I've ever used brakes on a freeway. Then Seattle happened to me.

I surprisingly agree with Jeremy Clarkson (well maybe not shot, but a fork in the knee cap sounds about right!) and you on this topic completely and god I still have a fit every damn time I see brake lights on a freeway.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Lups

I don't think before moving here I've ever used brakes on a freeway. Then Seattle happened to me.

I surprisingly agree with Jeremy Clarkson (well maybe not shot, but a fork in the knee cap sounds about right!) and you on this topic completely and god I still have a fit every damn time I see brake lights on a freeway.

Fork in the kneecaps does seem more humane. Not fatal, but does put the kibosh on driving for a while.....

What kills me is that it is actually pretty easy to drive without the brake pedal all the time, but when you watch how others drive and are always reacting to the brake in front of them it becomes apparent that so many of them just aren't paying the slightest bit of attention to what is happening on the road.

My only rule of the road: assume everyone else on the road is a #!$$!@$ moron and is about to do the dumbest thing you could possibly imagine them doing and be ready for it. That way, you aren't stunned when it happens and you can be pleasantly surprised when the drooling troglodytes in the other cars manage to keep their cars in their own lanes without killing themselves in the process.....

[TheFlyingMouse]

Originally Posted by solstice

I think we all do a little of both to be honest, it's the more aggressive high rpm engine braking that was mentioned to overcome the relative mild engine brake of the S55 that I for one is rarely using while the OP and others are in favour of. I don't think it's really "wrong" but I also don't think it's best practice now a days mainly because brakes are so good and durable but also due to some other reasons.

Well, keep in mind that I am the OP and I'm not actually in favor of high rpm engine braking. It's just that to reach engine braking RPMs in this car requires going to a lower gear than I am used to. They might be slightly higher than I would like, but we're talking 3500 instead of 3000, not 5000 rpm.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by myzmak

Fork in the kneecaps does seem more humane. Not fatal, but does put the kibosh on driving for a while.....

What kills me is that it is actually pretty easy to drive without the brake pedal all the time, but when you watch how others drive and are always reacting to the brake in front of them it becomes apparent that so many of them just aren't paying the slightest bit of attention to what is happening on the road.

My only rule of the road: assume everyone else on the road is a #!$$!@$ moron and is about to do the dumbest thing you could possibly imagine them doing and be ready for it. That way, you aren't stunned when it happens and you can be pleasantly surprised when the drooling troglodytes in the other cars manage to keep their cars in their own lanes without killing themselves in the process.....

Yes.

You don't need to brake all the time if your speed is correct to the situation and you're not tailgating. In Seattle leaving a safe distance sadly means five cars will fill it at once but in normal places this works extremely well.

As usual, we assume the same things. I also assume minivans have no tire life left or brakes that would stop a mouse, and this makes me change lanes a bit more often than is truly needed.

Sometimes when I get to the grocery store, I actually congratulate myself for making it there to fetch the white gold when I look at what I'm surrounded by.

[morgan302]

One of my DE instructors reminded me that brakes are way cheeper than transmissions to fix. But I still down shift on hills or get off the road for a bit so the slow poke can get away. The fun part is seeing how fast you can catch up. Then start the process again. Simple minds have fun in odd ways

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by TheFlyingMouse

Well, keep in mind that I am the OP and I'm not actually in favor of high rpm engine braking. It's just that to reach engine braking RPMs in this car requires going to a lower gear than I am used to. They might be slightly higher than I would like, but we're talking 3500 instead of 3000, not 5000 rpm.

good point.

While Solstice is right that I dislike riding the brake, he is wrong to assume the engine braking being discussed is 'aggressive high RPM'. I think you and I are talking about normal driving and, yeah, it means letting the RPMs go up over 3,000 for cruising, not 5k. I would not recommend using a 5,000 rpm engine brake - it wont work and it will just result in a jarring ride.

Originally Posted by Lups

Yes.

You don't need to brake all the time if your speed is correct to the situation and you're not tailgating. In Seattle leaving a safe distance sadly means five cars will fill it at once but in normal places this works extremely well.

As usual, we assume the same things. I also assume minivans have no tire life left or brakes that would stop a mouse, and this makes me change lanes a bit more often than is truly needed.

Sometimes when I get to the grocery store, I actually congratulate myself for making it there to fetch the white gold when I look at what I'm surrounded by.

I keep telling you lups: fools often agree.

15 years ago I used to refer to the 'minivan dad' syndrome, which meant any man driving a minivan was so disappointed with where life had left him that he had to convince himself his minivan was 'sporty' (note the number of Ford Windstar SE (Sport Editions) sold, for proof). so I assumed those guys would inevitably pin that 'big ole V6' they were running off every stop line like they were driving, you know, a real car.

nowadays, the minivan dad will inevitably be driving an SUV (usually german) so that prejudice has shifted and I am frequently finding myself watching guys in Mercedes MLs or BMW X5s driving like, you know, they had real cars underneath them not top heavy, boxy, awkward behemoths....

now I see minivan drivers as being newly arrived to Canada drivers who are just tentative and hesitant as hell (which I never understand, since most of the places that tend to be net exporters of people to Canada have much more chaotic roads than we have....) so I assume they are going to drive really slowly, pull out into traffic at stupid times and are generally road hazards to get around as quickly as possible.

oh, one more prejudice: if I am on a highway and there is a long line of cars because some idiot up front is afraid to pass? The idiot will either be driving a Lexus LX 430 OR an Acura MDX. No exceptions.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by myzmak

My only rule of the road: assume everyone else on the road is a #!$$!@$ moron and is about to do the dumbest thing you could possibly imagine them doing and be ready for it. That way, you aren't stunned when it happens and you can be pleasantly surprised when the drooling troglodytes in the other cars manage to keep their cars in their own lanes without killing you in the process.....

Congrats, you just passed lesson one towards your bike license

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by solstice

Congrats, you just passed lesson one towards your bike license

(I don't ride but have some good friends who do. Sounds about right.)

[VCP]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

If that is you perception, it implies that you don't know how to properly drive a 6MT

Lol. Am I perceiving no rev match in sport +? I have 15 months behind the wheel of my 6spd M4.

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by TheFlyingMouse

I guess one benefit of less engine braking is you can drive smoother coming on/off throttle in traffic. In the 128i, every time you let off the throttle you get a bit of a jerk as the car goes into idle mode. That doesn't happen with the M3 6MT, so it's better for your passengers.

@Mustangquadcam:
Don't be jittery about getting the 6MT instead of the DCT. If you've been driving BMWs by stick for 21 years and enjoy it, you are going to like this one for sure. The placement is very natural and movement is smooth compared to other BMW manuals I've used. In my 128, getting into gear involves pulling/pushing through a hefty notch. The M3's is much much less pronounced, and throws are a bit shorter. On top of that, there does not seem to be a clutch delay valve like I had to rip out of my 128, or the one in my parents' X3. Letting the clutch in is as direct in the F80 as it was in my '84 3-er. You can be as smooth or as painfully stupid as you want to (and no, I have not dropped my clutch)!

I really like deeper blues, but SO was such a nice color that it did not make sense to me to pay up or wait longer for Individual. Added benefit is that the red should help me avoid getting rear-ended on my commute. Bay area drivers need all the help they can get!

@VCP:
18 wheelers have a "Jake Brake" device that vents the cylinders for even better braking. It makes a ton of noise and I wish I had one!


----

They want more pics...

There we go! Pictures. Keep em coming Mr. Mouse. Post your route too.

Make no mistake, I LOVE Sakhir Orange, but I also LOVE San Marino, and my girlfriend loves SM too! So it was 2-0 versus 1-1.

Bottom line, it doesn't matter what color it is, it's a frickn M3!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They're all magical!

29 days and counting! tick, tick, tick tick

:dance

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by VCP

Lol. Am I perceiving no rev match in sport +? I have 15 months behind the wheel of my 6spd M4.

I was just pulling your leg .

I understood what you meant. However, this is not the topic at hand. OP is talking about "constant" engine braking in a given gear, not the braking effect that occurs when downshifting without rev matching. That later effect is the result of using the car's forward momentum to accelerate the engine. This is rough on the engine and drivetrain.

A good MT driver should always be rev-matching, hence my comment

[Jim B]

Originally Posted by Lups

Yes.

You don't need to brake all the time if your speed is correct to the situation and you're not tailgating. In Seattle leaving a safe distance sadly means five cars will fill it at once but in normal places this works extremely well.

As usual, we assume the same things. I also assume minivans have no tire life left or brakes that would stop a mouse, and this makes me change lanes a bit more often than is truly needed.

Sometimes when I get to the grocery store, I actually congratulate myself for making it there to fetch the white gold when I look at what I'm surrounded by.

There are no normal places here in California. On I-5, I-80, Hwy. 99 or any other freeway here between the Oregon border and Mexico and west of Nevada, If you leave a safe distance, five 18-wheelers will fill it at once.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by Jim B

There are no normal places here in California. On I-5, I-80, Hwy. 99 or any other freeway here between the Oregon border and Mexico and west of Nevada, If you leave a safe distance, five 18-wheelers will fill it at once.

No bitching allowed from you ca folks. Your drivers are solid compared to Washington's.

[TheFlyingMouse]

Originally Posted by Jim B

There are no normal places here in California. On I-5, I-80, Hwy. 99 or any other freeway here between the Oregon border and Mexico and west of Nevada, If you leave a safe distance, five 18-wheelers will fill it at once.

And they'll do it when traffic is flowing at 90 too. The nice thing about 18 wheelers is that they manage their brakes better. I still wouldn't tailgate them though...

Lups may be right about Washington drivers. I just thought it was CA plate hate from them while I was driving through Oregon, but I guess it's a much bigger issue after all!

More pics to come from Switzerland part of the trip once I get on decent wifi again. The traffic and construction zones on some of the northbound autobahnen in Germany ought to be a crime. I'll probably switch to posting in the pics/videos forum for that stuff now.

[F80 M Freak]

down shift!

[VCP]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I was just pulling your leg .

I understood what you meant. However, this is not the topic at hand. OP is talking about "constant" engine braking in a given gear, not the braking effect that occurs when downshifting without rev matching. That later effect is the result of using the car's forward momentum to accelerate the engine. This is rough on the engine and drivetrain.

A good MT driver should always be rev-matching, hence my comment