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View Poll Results: S65 option or S55 standart ?
YES ... I would choose the S65 if an option at this price would be availiable 92 46.00%
NO ... I would choose the standart S55 engine 108 54.00%
Voters: 200. You may not vote on this poll

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      01-03-2014, 08:29 PM   #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I guess my point was that ITB's are pretty common on most higher end performance cars. It's not some BMW V-block exclusive. In retrospect though, the E36 ///M3's S52 I6 sounded great, and it didn't have ITB's.
surely you knew i knew that. about the ITBs. of course other companies use something of that nature. i am big on exotic motors.

i also understand you dont need ITBs to have a good sound. i think you give me less credit then i should have.
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      01-03-2014, 10:47 PM   #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
ya i realize that. although i feel the S65 and S85 have better than most in the stock induction. i thought maybe one of the big reasons were the ITBs. i knew it wasn't the sole reason though.
I guess my point was that ITB's are pretty common on most higher end performance cars. It's not some BMW V-block exclusive. In retrospect though, the E36 ///M3's S52 I6 sounded great, and it didn't have ITB's.
ITBs are "pretty common on most higher end performance cars"..?

EDIT: Added more length to the quotation. I didn't realize you even went as far as to say "most" higher end performance cars.
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      01-03-2014, 11:49 PM   #487
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When the v8 was coming out i was like WHOA HELL YEAH.

My gripe is the turbos.
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      01-04-2014, 12:46 AM   #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I'm going to laugh my ass off if this S55 engine becomes adored. People were fairly resistant to BMW going to the V8 too, and people were writing it off long before they were able to drive it because it wasn't an I6.
I'm prepared to lmao with you
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      01-04-2014, 03:58 AM   #489
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I am not even so sure how you can compare both right now. As most of us have not driven the S55. Thus, in my opinion it is too early to pass a verdict as which one is better.

I have driven an S65 on multiple occasions and N54 tuned which I own for over 4.3 years. While the N54 is good as a daily driver with lots of low down torque and nice broad power band, as well as easily modifiable, with decent gas mileage. I can't deny that the character of the S65 with its wailing sound and over 8K rpm redline with super quick revving feel and immediate throttle response has a more performance oriented feel to it that I would like to desire when I hit a track.

To me the S65 has the excitement on its side while N54 has practicality on its side. Lets, hope that the S55 can give us best of the both rather then just being a souped up N54.
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      01-04-2014, 05:07 AM   #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
well like i have been saying fundamentally i am not a fan of the Inline 6 engine. just like how you do not like cross plane V8 engines. but at the end of the day i will be open minded to the new S55. be honest do you like the new corvette? i know you havent driven it yet. could you drive(own) a car with a big "lazy" v8 ?

they still make big V8 motors today. but they are different from the old school engines. that wasn't my generation, but i know of people who still to this day like those old big blocks over the modern V8s. so as time goes on engines do change.

i don't feel we will see a engine like the S65 again. maybe we will see a V8 again. but a high revving n/a v8. idk... its just to fuel thirsty. fuel is the problem. its not getting cheaper, and its not unlimited .

and it looks like most car companies are going FI now and ditching the N/A. maybe we have maxed out n/a motors in terms of getting the best MPG. even Ferrari is going FI. and we all know they love there n/a engines.
I have no problems with a V8 engine and plan on upgrading to a M5 in the future, but that has a cross bank exhaust manifold changing the exhaust sound. Love the sound of the new Audi RS6. I would love to have a 1969 Boss 302 or 429 Mustang (I was born in 1969 ). The C7 gets rave reviews in Europe. A V8 can sound really good, but mostly I prefer the sound of a BMW I6

And what you haven't taken into account in your anticipation of future engines are new technologies, like hybrid drivetrain. Just look at LaFerrari and Porsche 918. They combine high rpm NA engines with electrical engine. Creating a car with excellent official CO2 and consumption numbers. And with a low torque high rpm NA engine (the hybrid power takes care of low down grunt and means that the petrol engine doesn't have to be as torquey low down and engineers are free to create a more "racey" engine).

The 918 Spyder gets 94mpg and 70g/km of CO2... WAY better than the S55

That tech is too expensive for a 911 or a M3 today. But we might see that stuff in the future even on ordinary cars like the M3 etc!

In fact, I believe that my favourite drivetrain for the next gen M3/M4 would be a high revving NA I6/V8 with hybrid power. NO lag whatsoever and a combination of low end power from the hybrid drivetrain, excellent high rpm NA engine and fantastic fuel consumption and CO2 numbers

Remember that you read it here first

Last edited by Boss330; 01-04-2014 at 06:00 AM.
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      01-04-2014, 05:53 AM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I believe the S55 has ITB's too dude. That much hasn't changed.
The S55 doesn't even have a single throttle body...

Valvetronic takes care of the TB business on modern BMW engines. So, in effect every BMW engine with Valvetronic has what equals ITB, since air flow to each cylinder is controlled by the valve lift on each cylinder.

In fact, probably better than ITB since the intake valves only allow air flow when air flow is needed. On a ITB setup the TB is still open even though the cylinder is not drawing air in (like on the combustion or exhaust stroke).

And some DI engines today don't even have a throttle at all, they run like a diesel (but with a spark plug obviously) with only the amount of fuel injected regulating the power output.

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      01-04-2014, 08:48 AM   #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I believe the S55 has ITB's too dude. That much hasn't changed.
The S55 doesn't even have a single throttle body...

Valvetronic takes care of the TB business on modern BMW engines. So, in effect every BMW engine with Valvetronic has what equals ITB, since air flow to each cylinder is controlled by the valve lift on each cylinder.

In fact, probably better than ITB since the intake valves only allow air flow when air flow is needed. On a ITB setup the TB is still open even though the cylinder is not drawing air in (like on the combustion or exhaust stroke).

And some DI engines today don't even have a throttle at all, they run like a diesel (but with a spark plug obviously) with only the amount of fuel injected regulating the power output.

Face palm @ myself. I totally forgot about Valetronic/DI.
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      01-04-2014, 09:36 AM   #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
The S55 doesn't even have a single throttle body...

Valvetronic takes care of the TB business on modern BMW engines. So, in effect every BMW engine with Valvetronic has what equals ITB, since air flow to each cylinder is controlled by the valve lift on each cylinder.

In fact, probably better than ITB since the intake valves only allow air flow when air flow is needed. On a ITB setup the TB is still open even though the cylinder is not drawing air in (like on the combustion or exhaust stroke).
I am not sure this is an advantage of Valvetronic... What would be the negative effect of having the TB open when the intake valves are closed ?

IMO, a big benefit of dispensing with the throttle bodies is a significant reduction of pumping losses, especially at smaller throttle openings. IIRC, earlier versions of Valvetronic were not deemed "fast enough" for applications in ///M engines (S85 and S65). This is why they retained the individual throttle bodies. With the advancement of the technology, Valvetronic was first applied on an ///M engine with the S63.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
And some DI engines today don't even have a throttle at all, they run like a diesel (but with a spark plug obviously) with only the amount of fuel injected regulating the power output.
I did not know this. If it is possible, that would be pretty cool and a very good brakethrough. I always thought that gasoline requires a (near) stoichiometric mix to ignite. I guess they found a way to create the proper mix just around the spark plug for it to work.

Any references to such an engine? I would be interested to read about it.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 01-04-2014 at 10:27 AM.
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      01-04-2014, 12:10 PM   #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I am not sure this is an advantage of Valvetronic... What would be the negative effect of having the TB open when the intake valves are closed ?

IMO, a big benefit of dispensing with the throttle bodies is a significant reduction of pumping losses, especially at smaller throttle openings. IIRC, earlier versions of Valvetronic were not deemed "fast enough" for applications in ///M engines (S85 and S65). This is why they retained the individual throttle bodies. With the advancement of the technology, Valvetronic was first applied on an ///M engine with the S63.




I did not know this. If it is possible, that would be pretty cool and a very good brakethrough. I always thought that gasoline requires a (near) stoichiometric mix to ignite. I guess they found a way to create the proper mix just around the spark plug for it to work.

Any references to such an engine? I would be interested to read about it.
The info on engines with no TB was from Wikipedia, and might not be accurate (so far I only know about DI engines that have a TB).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection

However,many DI engine runs at WOT most of the time, and the power produced is governed by the amount of fuel injected.

Here is some info on DI:

Old article from 2007 on DI:
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_107830/article.html



Quote:
As with many conventional engine management systems, direct injection requires the use of an electronically-controlled throttle. However, unlike conventional systems where the actual throttle opening more or less follows the driver’s accelerator pedal torque request, in the case of direct injected engines, for much of the time the throttle is fully open - engine torque output is instead regulated by varying the fuel delivery, just like a diesel.

This diagram shows how this occurs. During Stratified Charge Mode the throttle (indicated by ‘a’) is held wide-open, irrespective of the driver’s accelerator pedal input. When the torque request is low, the air/fuel ratio is very lean (Bosch refer to this as an increased ‘excess air ratio’ – line ‘b’), with the air/fuel ratio gradually becoming richer as more torque is required. At a certain point, which corresponds on an engine-specific basis to engine speed and the amount of torque required, the engine changes to Homogenous Mode. (For simplicity, the transitional Homogenous Lean-Burn Mode is ignored in this diagram.) With the change in modes, the throttle valve opening becomes related to the driver’s torque request and the air/fuel ratio holds a constant stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (that is, 14.7:1 or Lambda = 1) across the rest of the engine load range.
Info from BOSCH:
http://www.bosch-automotivetechnolog...jection_1.html

An older, but very detailed, article on GDI:
http://web.iitd.ac.in/~pmvs/ICengines/paper12.pdf

From the Audi manual on the 3.0 TFSI engine (p 27):
http://www.s4-mtm.com/images/925803_3.0V6TFSIengine.pdf

Quote:
During part-throttle and naturally aspirated operation,
the bypass valve is wide open and the engine throttle
valve takes care of load management. In charge pressure
mode, the bypass valve regulates the engine load and the
engine throttle valve is wide open.
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      01-04-2014, 12:20 PM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I believe the S55 has ITB's too dude. That much hasn't changed.
The S55 doesn't even have a single throttle body...

Valvetronic takes care of the TB business on modern BMW engines. So, in effect every BMW engine with Valvetronic has what equals ITB, since air flow to each cylinder is controlled by the valve lift on each cylinder.

In fact, probably better than ITB since the intake valves only allow air flow when air flow is needed. On a ITB setup the TB is still open even though the cylinder is not drawing air in (like on the combustion or exhaust stroke).

And some DI engines today don't even have a throttle at all, they run like a diesel (but with a spark plug obviously) with only the amount of fuel injected regulating the power output.

Exactly.

To piggyback on this, ITBs are just a means to an end. There are many other--perhaps better--routes to the same engine design goals.

Just for fun, though, can anyone name another currently for sale production vehicle with ITBs? The E93 M3 of course is one.
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      01-04-2014, 12:20 PM   #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Just as you say it...



It can be a bit tricky to discriminate throttle response and lag when widely varying throttle maps are used. For instance using the aggressive throttle mapping in the S65 M3, I would say the throttle is too sensitive at low throttle openings. This can give an illusion of a "faster" car or better throttle response or it can just make the car downright jumpy and too sensitive (which is my evaluation). However, I find it next to impossible to believe that you find a turbo charged N55 to have a better throttle response than the S65. You really must be confused.
+1 I have an N55 with the Sport Shift 8 Speed Auto. Throttle response is fast in Sport and Sport + modes, but not on par with an S65 ///M
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      01-04-2014, 01:22 PM   #497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I have no problems with a V8 engine and plan on upgrading to a M5 in the future, but that has a cross bank exhaust manifold changing the exhaust sound. Love the sound of the new Audi RS6. I would love to have a 1969 Boss 302 or 429 Mustang (I was born in 1969 ). The C7 gets rave reviews in Europe. A V8 can sound really good, but mostly I prefer the sound of a BMW I6

And what you haven't taken into account in your anticipation of future engines are new technologies, like hybrid drivetrain. Just look at LaFerrari and Porsche 918. They combine high rpm NA engines with electrical engine. Creating a car with excellent official CO2 and consumption numbers. And with a low torque high rpm NA engine (the hybrid power takes care of low down grunt and means that the petrol engine doesn't have to be as torquey low down and engineers are free to create a more "racey" engine).

The 918 Spyder gets 94mpg and 70g/km of CO2... WAY better than the S55

That tech is too expensive for a 911 or a M3 today. But we might see that stuff in the future even on ordinary cars like the M3 etc!

In fact, I believe that my favourite drivetrain for the next gen M3/M4 would be a high revving NA I6/V8 with hybrid power. NO lag whatsoever and a combination of low end power from the hybrid drivetrain, excellent high rpm NA engine and fantastic fuel consumption and CO2 numbers

Remember that you read it here first
i will agree that new spyder i really like. revs to 9k RPM. with electric motor that helps get it it great MPG. i feel that is the way to go. in terms of meeting the growing demand for efficient engines. that car cost a a lot though. that technology is somewhat new to street performance cars. as we are just seeing it in the super cars first. time will tell when it hits cars we can afford.

and ya i believe it or not. i would love a high revving n/a I6 also.
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      01-04-2014, 03:10 PM   #498
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Pretty much all race tuned, free revving high rpm NA engines has great sound, character and throttle response independent on how many cylinders they have and how the cylinders are lined up.

This little 750cc 4 banger street engine for example sounds and responds better than pretty much any turbo engine. Just the way things are. Physics and all.

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      01-14-2014, 03:11 PM   #499
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The S65 was an incredible value and I'm not sure I see something similar with the F80. Hopefully the overall package will still make it so since I'm likely be getting one.

BMW must be smiling though. "See Gunther I told you! We can stop this expensive bespoke engines and put in a tuned standard engine AND raise prices people will still hail it as a great price".

Last edited by solstice; 01-14-2014 at 03:16 PM.
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      01-16-2014, 02:39 AM   #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
BMW must be smiling though. "See Gunther I told you! We can stop this expensive bespoke engines and put in a tuned standard engine AND raise prices people will still hail it as a great price".
Nice, exactly.
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      01-16-2014, 07:14 AM   #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
BMW must be smiling though. "See Gunther I told you! We can stop this expensive bespoke engines and put in a tuned standard engine AND raise prices people will still hail it as a great price".
Tuned standard engine?

A 1M has a tuned series engine. The F8x uses the S55, derived from the N55. Just like the S50/S52/S54 I6 in past M3s are derived from series engines, but completely reengineered.
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      01-16-2014, 08:11 AM   #502
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I think that what the 1M did was to define the real meaning of what a "tuned series engine" really is from the point of view of corporate cost reduction. Other than the overboost feature the sucker was exactly like the series engine. Exactly. In other words, the end of what ///M used to do.

Every other ///M engine went thru much more significant and invasive variations of series engines, not just "tuned". Like displacement changes, block changes, individual throttles, even cylinder count.

With that said, now more than ever an M5/M6 is a tuned 550i/650i, the X5M/X6M is a tuned X5/X6 and finally a M3/M4 is a tuned 335i/435i.

Try to even fathom saying that of a past M3 and M5 and you will know what I am talking about.

Like I said before, I will get an F80 M3. Without doubt this will perform better than any M3 before. But that does not mean that I do not know that I am getting less than what I used to get in an ///M. The value, that intangible thing that will kill car models sooner of later, is just not there anymore. You can see value in the new Corvette, in the new Mustang, even in the upcoming C63.

In this one, not as much as before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Tuned standard engine?

A 1M has a tuned series engine. The F8x uses the S55, derived from the N55. Just like the S50/S52/S54 I6 in past M3s are derived from series engines, but completely reengineered.
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      01-16-2014, 08:34 AM   #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
I think that what the 1M did was to define the real meaning of what a "tuned series engine" really is from the point of view of corporate cost reduction. Other than the overboost feature the sucker was exactly like the series engine. Exactly. In other words, the end of what ///M used to do.

IRL the engine is 50% more thrilling than on paper and 100% more thrilling in everyday use than the 'exotic' V8 in the E9xM3. The whole package being in 9/10 ways a better and sportier performer than the E9x M3 ever was.



A classic and true successor to the legendary E30 M3 and E46 M3 CSL. I hope the F8x M3 will do the same...

And talking about true VALUE LOL. The 1M has it.

[/rant]

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      01-16-2014, 08:48 AM   #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
I think that what the 1M did was to define the real meaning of what a "tuned series engine" really is from the point of view of corporate cost reduction. Other than the overboost feature the sucker was exactly like the series engine. Exactly. In other words, the end of what ///M used to do.

Every other ///M engine went thru much more significant and invasive variations of series engines, not just "tuned". Like displacement changes, block changes, individual throttles, even cylinder count.

With that said, now more than ever an M5/M6 is a tuned 550i/650i, the X5M/X6M is a tuned X5/X6 and finally a M3/M4 is a tuned 335i/435i.

Try to even fathom saying that of a past M3 and M5 and you will know what I am talking about.

Like I said before, I will get an F80 M3. Without doubt this will perform better than any M3 before. But that does not mean that I do not know that I am getting less than what I used to get in an ///M. The value, that intangible thing that will kill car models sooner of later, is just not there anymore. You can see value in the new Corvette, in the new Mustang, even in the upcoming C63.

In this one, not as much as before.
+10 . really true words ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
IRL the engine is 50% more thrilling than on paper and 100% more thrilling in everyday use than the 'exotic' V8 in the E9xM3. The whole package being in 9/10 ways a better and sportier performer than the E9x M3 ever was.



A classic and true successor to the legendary E30 M3 and E46 M3 CSL. I hope the F8x M3 will do the same...

And talking about true VALUE LOL. The 1M has it.

[/rant]

Cheers
Robin
Really(?) ... I think the 1M was such an thrilling car only because it puts the dynamic parts of the E9xM3 into an smaller and lighter car body ... an they don´t bring the S65 into the 1M because in this case it would eat the E9xM3 every time ... so the N54 engine was simply enough for the 1M theme ... so for me the 1M was an really nice sportscar, but despite of its engine and not because of its engine ... 335i dreamboys wouldn´t agree, but simply because they don´t accept (or know?) how the HDZ concept works !!!

Last edited by BMW M3 CRT; 01-16-2014 at 09:02 AM.
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      01-16-2014, 08:51 AM   #505
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@Technic: You know with the new car you are getting less:

Less weight.

Sorry just had to do that.




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      01-16-2014, 09:11 AM   #506
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That's right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
@Technic: You know with the new car you are getting less:

Less weight.

Sorry just had to do that.




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