I'm desperate for an explanation to why my wastegate does this...

[G82 Jesse]

Log up front with the wild wastegate: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61e2...90c66772a61406

Hi all,

Over the course of the last several months, I've been working on various performance upgrades to my F80 M3 in the pursuit of horsepower.

Current list:

Crank hub.
Down pipes, charge pipes, intakes.
Pure Stage 2+ Turbos, Nostrum HPFP, Nostrum Stg1 injectors,
Running (and right now logging) a FF tune from Paul for 91oct - E85.

I've had this issue with the way my car makes boost at the top end for months, and I simply cannot make heads or tails of it. This car does not have a boost leak. I have sent my local performance shop through the ringer - We've smoke tested it, taken everything apart and put it back together again, swapped in parts from donor F80 M3s, checked all fittings of every pipe and clamp, etc.

For whatever reason, at the top end as my car is in WOT, my wastegate decides it needs to dump some pressure and it drops far below where it should be, realizes it's opened too wide, and clamps back up to close to 100%. Now the car is immediately on the brink of overboosting, so it leaps down once again past it's target (now it's underboosting) and the vicious cycle continues. The duty cycle jumps from 100-85-100-85 as fast as BM3 can log it. It doesn't smoothly open up to bleed boost as it should.

I simply don't understand what the issue could be. My shop has looked at the turbos multiple times, used ITSA for calibration, has claimed everything checks out, etc. This is all out of my wheel house, but I fail to see how this isn't a solenoid/actuator/spring issue of some kind with the wastegate itself. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do?

Also, here's a log of the base map from Paul. The boost looks a little wonky, however it IS smooth and the wastegate appears to be functioning normally: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61dc...729b748def42fd Could this be a tuning issue? The log I supplied at the beginning of this post is the first revision of that base map ^ However I feel like after the experience of 1000s of tunes, this couldn't be Paul's fault.

[Commanderwiggin]

What kind of intakes?

Log looks to have 2 issues; boost control definitely looks to be a royal pita and the fuel quality looks pretty bad.

Couple ideas, throw on the stock intakes and see how that helps. Secondly did they do the wastegate linkage check with ISTA and verify visually that the gate was actually closed? They can still pass even not being fully closed. Any oil in charge pipes? This would contribute to all the ignition corrections you have. AZ fuel is notoriously bad, even worse than CA in some cases...so you're probably SOL there on pump. Bumping up to E30 should resolve a bunch of the corrections.

[TopJimmy]

Jesse, Commander is wicked skilled. Follow his lead.

[G82 Jesse]

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

What kind of intakes?

Log looks to have 2 issues; boost control definitely looks to be a royal pita and the fuel quality looks pretty bad.

Couple ideas, throw on the stock intakes and see how that helps. Secondly did they do the wastegate linkage check with ISTA and verify visually that the gate was actually closed? They can still pass even not being fully closed. Any oil in charge pipes? This would contribute to all the ignition corrections you have. AZ fuel is notoriously bad, even worse than CA in some cases...so you're probably SOL there on pump. Bumping up to E30 should resolve a bunch of the corrections.

I have intakes from CTS Turbo. (https://www.ctsturbo.com/product/cts...f80-m3-m4-s55/). I'll ask my local shop if they still have my stock ones, or any stock parts lying around, to put back on and see if that helps (which would be a great fix, but too bad as I love the noise!)

I did notice that the timing is all over the place under hard acceleration. I'm running pump gas right now, 91 octane, but it's Arizona 91 and is indeed total crap. However no, there's no oil in the charge pipes. If I'm trying to log a 91 tune, but I'm blending ethanol, wouldn't that mess up my results a bit for an accurate tune?

As far at visually checking to see if the gate closed, no idea actually, I'll ask them when they open on Tuesday. Could it be worth replacing both actuator units themselves, maybe if one or more is just faulty...?

I appreciate your suggestions and considerations, I'll be certain to try those out! Thanks so much for your time

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by JesseH234

I have intakes from CTS Turbo. (https://www.ctsturbo.com/product/cts...f80-m3-m4-s55/). I'll ask my local shop if they still have my stock ones, or any stock parts lying around, to put back on and see if that helps (which would be a great fix, but too bad as I love the noise!)

I did notice that the timing is all over the place under hard acceleration. I'm running pump gas right now, 91 octane, but it's Arizona 91 and is indeed total crap. However no, there's no oil in the charge pipes. If I'm trying to log a 91 tune, but I'm blending ethanol, wouldn't that mess up my results a bit for an accurate tune?

As far at visually checking to see if the gate closed, no idea actually, I'll ask them when they open on Tuesday. Could it be worth replacing both actuator units themselves, maybe if one or more is just faulty...?

I appreciate your suggestions and considerations, I'll be certain to try those out! Thanks so much for your time

Yeah give the stock intakes a go.

As for fuel, go with your tuner needs for a flex tune but I would make sure the fuel is fresh from a quality top tier fuel location that you frequent...not Costco/ARCO/other small time jobs.

To properly calibrate the wastegates you need to remove the downpipes(for visual check) and calibrate them with ISTA...I believe ISTA also requires you to measure as well. I doubt the actuators are bad, likely just not calibrated properly but feel free to toss money at it if it makes you feel better...it will only hurt your pocket book and remove any anxiety about that being the issue.

No problem...provide updates on how things work out.

[TopJimmy]

If you have crappy fuel in-tank then adding 1gal of E85 per 1/3 tank (5gal gas) will improve your octane by 2 numbers, and Eth% would be 22.5. This should improve the running so you can get the bad gas driven through (don't do any rips). If you did log on this E22 the fuel trims might be increased a little, but rough idle/running should clear up.

[heitzke]

Man i'm sorry to see this still going on. I have my stock intakes in the garage (that I WOULD like to keep at some point) but I'll ship them to you if you the shop ends up not having your OEM. They're sitting in a big box so shipping would be no problem.

It'd at least keep you from having to source/buy factory ones just to see if that helps. Keep me posted for sure.

[G82 Jesse]

Originally Posted by heitzke

Man i'm sorry to see this still going on. I have my stock intakes in the garage (that I WOULD like to keep at some point) but I'll ship them to you if you the shop ends up not having your OEM. They're sitting in a big box so shipping would be no problem.

It'd at least keep you from having to source/buy factory ones just to see if that helps. Keep me posted for sure.

Haha oh yeah, the issues with my M3 are simply never-ending, and this wastegate debacle has been the thorn in my side for months. I had to get my car towed last week - the positive terminal for the battery literally started melting and completely disabled all electronics in the car (including steering of course) while I was driving.. Everything just went black in an instant and the car was a corpse on the road. I'll admit it was a little terrifying. Shop said they've never seen that on an F80 before, absolute nightmare..

That's an incredibly generous offer to ship me your stock air intakes, however I have a fair amount of confidence my local shop will have them, or be able to easily source them. They had SEVEN F8X at one time on their floor last week, so I'm hoping they've got one or two lying around.. potentially. The F80/F82/F83 platform is their specialty and I think they're about as frustrated with the failure to accurately diagnose & remedy this wastegate issue as I am. About 15 cars have gotten the PS2+ turbos through them in the last 6-7mo, but I'm the only one experiencing issues. Feels quite bad.

[heitzke]

Totally, glad to help out however I can. Communities like these have always been helpful to me and glad to give back if I have a chance to.

Neither of us are having a great time right now haha, but it'll all be worth it in the end

[Twistm4]

It's likely how he has the map targets set up in the tune.

What does your tuner say about all this?

Flash an OTS map and compare.

In my experience alot of these things end up being in the tune.

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by JesseH234

This car does not have a boost leak. I have sent my local performance shop through the ringer - We've smoke tested it, taken everything apart and put it back together again, swapped in parts from donor F80 M3s, checked all fittings of every pipe and clamp, etc.

However I feel like after the experience of 1000s of tunes, this couldn't be Paul's fault.

A pressurized (20+ psi) smoke test would've revealed an issue with one of the engine accessories, and the DME would throw a CEL if your WG actuators were out of calibration; it only takes a little bit to trigger a check engine light... I don't believe this is tune related either.

I spent a few months chasing a similar issue last year. Had brand new turbos, WG actuators, injectors, coilpacks, seals, sensors, etc... took apart the EoS intake manifold 3x, sealed the phenolic spacer on both ends, and tightened all vacuum ends. The engine would pass a smoke test, albeit at 10psi, each time. I questioned everything from the tune (boost profile) to the accessories, but never really questioned the engine's internals...

I finally decided to get the engine tested for leak down and compression, and that's when I found out the engine was able to build pressure just fine at 185psi (cold) across all cylinders. However, leak down showed a major leak in 4 out of 6 cylinders, which caused high WGDC values at 20 psi peak boost target -- engine drives fine for the most part.

I'd make sure the engine is healthy before checking anything else. If the engine checks out, do a search for PS2+ boost leak or refer to the thread below:

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1745668

[G82 Jesse]

New log after discussing with Paul: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61e6...0b436cff257d6c

100% done just via the tune - looking and feeling MILES better tonight, but I know it's still far from perfect. The boost doesn't really seem to know where it wants to be, but at least the WGDC isn't leaping to 100% and back down to 85% at the speed of light. Total oscillations here are about 0.2 - 1.0 PSI and it's not happening rapidly either. I wish there was some massive repository of BM3 data logs for me to take a look at and compare. I'd love to see what logs look like for other cars with similar modifications to mine!

FriedPiston I appreciate that story, I would've never even considered that. Lets say I get a compression and leak down test ran, and see that there's a leak in 1 or more cylinders (my WGDC is always high) what would the next course of action be for that?

[heitzke]

That looks much much better. I'll dig up a couple logs.

Here's a 60-130 pull: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61aa...90c666e435a1d0

3-4-5 pull: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61b1...729b7734930790

These are older logs but at least shows some fluctuation in my boost levels as well and see where my WGDC has been.

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by JesseH234

Lets say I get a compression and leak down test ran, and see that there's a leak in 1 or more cylinders (my WGDC is always high) what would the next course of action be for that?

it all depends on what shows up on the tests.

leak down failure = valvetrain
low compression = bottom end

[G82 Jesse]

Originally Posted by heitzke

That looks much much better. I'll dig up a couple logs.

Here's a 60-130 pull: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61aa...90c666e435a1d0

3-4-5 pull: https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=61b1...729b7734930790

These are older logs but at least shows some fluctuation in my boost levels as well and see where my WGDC has been.

Thanks as always heitzke! You've been a huge help in my debacle with my car over the last couple months, haha. It's been great being able to compare your logs to mine. So it seems to me like some boost variance is relatively normal. I guess expecting a perfectly flat boost line isn't realistic.

I had forgotten to add "turbine distribution factor" to my logs. Paul said with this new data channel added, he's able to adjust my base WGDC to the map even further. I just received a new revision from him this morning, I'm hoping it's the golden ticket! I supposedly have one more revision to do on pump gas before we start bumping up the ethanol content to keep building this tune.

I'm pretty excited to see the difference of the stock HPFP vs my Nostrum kit when I get to E50 and above. I noticed the stock high pressure pumps would max out around 3300-3500psi when trying to push E50. Apparently these nostrum pumps can output an impressive 4700psi. It'll be interesting to see that "HPFP(target) and "HPFP(actual)" fall in line with each other!

[SWFL_M3]

I myself have been going through this wastegate oscillation issue and was being told by my tuner that because of the limited channels for flex fuel in BM3 it makes the process a PIA. I started my Flex Fuel journey with Cary Jordan almost a year ago and the car felt horrible along with his teams customer service so I changed tuners. Now starting all over again and looking for a different tuning software if anyone has any suggestions, Ecutek or MHD?

Thanks