SSOTT

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Captain Blood

Did you look at the Subaru ascent? It has that great Subaru turbo charged engine. I was impressed when I had one as a loaner.

I did and wasn't peppy enough for me ... not that the highlander is, but it doesn't bother me there ...

I've looked at most of the SUVs and narrowed it down to:

(1.) Highlander platinum (pretty large cargo-wise)
(2.) Acura MDX Type-S (+$10k, slightly larger, much faster, comes out soon)
(3.) X5M (+$60k, smaller, way faster, but maybe BMW will cancel the B&W option and/or other options! )

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I did and wasn't peppy enough for me ... not that the highlander is, but it doesn't bother me there ...

I've looked at most of the SUVs and narrowed it down to:

(1.) Highlander platinum (pretty large cargo-wise)
(2.) Acura MDX Type-S (+$10k, slightly larger, much faster, comes out soon)
(3.) X5M (+$60k, smaller, way faster, but maybe BMW will cancel the B&W option and/or other options! )

My family member went from a Benz E-Class to a MDX. She seems happy with the choice.

For me, BMW will always be a bit of a safe brand. Regardless of how I feel about the current gen cars or how much BMW seem to lost their message.

Personally, I'd do X3M over the 5M but that's a personal choice I think. Gotten over how excessively fast those cars are because I hardly use it, or get the chance to.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Arcades

My family member went from a Benz E-Class to a MDX. She seems happy with the choice.

For me, BMW will always be a bit of a safe brand. Regardless of how I feel about the current gen cars or how much BMW seem to lost their message.

Personally, I'd do X3M over the 5M but that's a personal choice I think. Gotten over how excessively fast those cars are because I hardly use it, or get the chance to.

Thanks, yeah the X3 is too small for our use case - oddly the X5 might be a bit too small and there's only two of us! But that's because we travel with all kinds of stuff for cooking since we generally don't eat out (nothing to do with covid, just don't like to) and these days also travel with an air purifier for the smoke.

The thing about the Highlander is its so inconspicuous and it's not trying to be fancy, just get the job done. There's a pleasing practical minimalism about it. The Acura seems to be trying real hard to compete with the Germans, albeit for a much cheaper price ...

For whatever reason, even though the Acura is probably the better buy, it kinda annoys me.

I guess we'll see if BMW is bad at production forecasting and cancels my B&W option and/or other options - if so, that might make my decision for me.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Thanks, yeah the X3 is too small for our use case - oddly the X5 might be a bit too small and there's only two of us! But that's because we travel with all kinds of stuff for cooking since we generally don't eat out (nothing to do with covid, just don't like to) and these days also travel with an air purifier for the smoke.

The thing about the Highlander is its so inconspicuous and it's not trying to be fancy, just get the job done. There's a pleasing practical minimalism about it. The Acura seems to be trying real hard to compete with the Germans, albeit for a much cheaper price ...

For whatever reason, even though the Acura is probably the better buy, it kinda annoys me.

I guess we'll see if BMW is bad at production forecasting and cancels my B&W option and/or other options - if so, that might make my decision for me.

I personally don't like the Acura until they change the interior. I drove and been in a few during LA Auto Show two years back. They were... extremely comfortable and oddly tight, interior wise. However the issue for me is the interior.

I don't like the setup. Not with the buttons, not with the big center dial to change gears. It is just strange to me.

Of those three, X5M is the safest but far more expensive and, maybe, unnecessary. I'd choose Highlander over Acura mainly because of the interior setup. Both of those cars, MDX and Highlander aren't too fast but most cars not German, aren't that fast either. The Type-S model won't make it exceptionally faster either but it could be fast enough.

Until Acura can prove the Type-S to be a real deal, I'd be more skeptical of Acura until then.

My uncle, literally ordered a Cayenne Coupe GTS a few days ago after finally, FINALLY dropping his weird urge to get the G-Wagon. The GSM of the Porsche dealership, whom is a personal friend of his, finally convinced him to stop with the G-Wagon hassle because it wasn't worth the headache. His car came out to be about 138k and no markup.

Depending on how much you are willing to spend, Porsche is still a potential option. They still have the lower interest rate, which I believe I am able to get when my GT4 comes in at the end of October. I believe it is a 2.49%, which I am more than happy with.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Arcades

Porsche is still a potential option. They still have the lower interest rate, which I believe I am able to get when my GT4 comes in at the end of October. I believe it is a 2.49%, which I am more than happy with.

Hmmm ... could be ... I'd go for the Cayenne GTS *if* I could get one for a decent discount. Overall that's been the problem with Porsche - either they're not available at all or MSRP minimum and after awhile it was just too much of a hassle.

Hey, beyond the Porsche option, I know we've been over this before, but what are your brand recommendations these days on PPF & tint?

I'm thinking I'd get the front done for sure, and maybe the front door windows tinted ...

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Hmmm ... could be ... I'd go for the Cayenne GTS *if* I could get one for a decent discount. Overall that's been the problem with Porsche - either they're not available at all or MSRP minimum and after awhile it was just too much of a hassle.

Hey, beyond the Porsche option, I know we've been over this before, but what are your brand recommendations these days on PPF & tint?

I'm thinking I'd get the front done for sure, and maybe the front door windows tinted ...

Right now, it is more on the person who does the work than the actual product. Most of the time anyway.

Xpel Ultimate, Suntek Ultra or Stek seem to be the most common. The most seen is Xpel Ultimate because they tend to reach out to people to do their work but not all of the people that does the work are good at their job. It is, sadly the same with Ceramic Pro coating.

I have Xpel Ultimate currently on my GTS. I had Suntek Ultra on all of my past cars minus the 3er.

Most of the films have a subtle difference that you may or may not be able to tell. Installers will have a certain preference or because they are sponsored by them they will say "This one is the best!" The most important is the installer of the product.

Tint I currently have Xpel XR Plus. I think it isn't bad actually. It is about as good as 3M Crystalline but clearer and cost about as much to install.

Just stay away from 3M for PPF. Also, stay away from Prestige products because they are far more expensive for the same cost as it's competitors.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Hmmm ... could be ... I'd go for the Cayenne GTS *if* I could get one for a decent discount. Overall that's been the problem with Porsche - either they're not available at all or MSRP minimum and after awhile it was just too much of a hassle.

Hey, beyond the Porsche option, I know we've been over this before, but what are your brand recommendations these days on PPF & tint?

I'm thinking I'd get the front done for sure, and maybe the front door windows tinted ...

If you haven't made a decision yet, well, I've had buyers remorse for a few years now over not taking the Highlander, when we traded in our Cadillac, it was between a pilot and the Highlander. Definitely should've gone with the Highlander. But we had a history of buying Hondas.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Captain Blood

If you haven't made a decision yet, well, I've had buyers remorse for a few years now over not taking the Highlander, when we traded in our Cadillac, it was between a pilot and the Highlander. Definitely should've gone with the Highlander. But we had a history of buying Hondas.

thanks cap'n!

Well we did order the X5M, but it's kinda not over until delivery ... we had an X5 45e ordered last fall, but cancelled as there was some jankiness about the battery going on an BMW wasn't very transparent about it. This round, there seems to be some options / features being cancelled ... so I'm hoping that BMW's production forecasting is sophisticated enough to account for booked / sold orders, i.e., we'll get what we ordered and those cancelled features will be for new orders. If that isn't the case, then might have to cancel again ...

But yeah, the Pilot was in the running, though after hearing about the Type-S Acura MDX, decided that'd be the Honda option with the Highlander still probably #1.

If we go highlander, I'd probably look to get the 18" wheels in place of the 20s as I love the ability to scrape curbs and the cheaper tires. Honestly either would be the more practical choice for our needs, especially given the built-in inverters, more room / storage capacity, inconspicuous profile, and general all-around lack of any worry about customizing them (for example, adding a cell phone booster antenna)

But those mountain roads just scream for a strict machine and, I've never owned a badass truck so maybe I don't know what I'm missing, so kind of an experience to have there too.

All just a bunch of first world problems I guess

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

thanks cap'n!

Well we did order the X5M, but it's kinda not over until delivery ... we had an X5 45e ordered last fall, but cancelled as there was some jankiness about the battery going on an BMW wasn't very transparent about it. This round, there seems to be some options / features being cancelled ... so I'm hoping that BMW's production forecasting is sophisticated enough to account for booked / sold orders, i.e., we'll get what we ordered and those cancelled features will be for new orders. If that isn't the case, then might have to cancel again ...

But yeah, the Pilot was in the running, though after hearing about the Type-S Acura MDX, decided that'd be the Honda option with the Highlander still probably #1.

If we go highlander, I'd probably look to get the 18" wheels in place of the 20s as I love the ability to scrape curbs and the cheaper tires. Honestly either would be the more practical choice for our needs, especially given the built-in inverters, more room / storage capacity, inconspicuous profile, and general all-around lack of any worry about customizing them (for example, adding a cell phone booster antenna)

But those mountain roads just scream for a strict machine and, I've never owned a badass truck so maybe I don't know what I'm missing, so kind of an experience to have there too.

All just a bunch of first world problems I guess

It is most probably the chip shortage again.

Last time I was at Porsche DTLA, the GSM showed me an email sent out by Porsche to all of its dealerships regarding the semiconductor shortage that is going to affect some things. I don't know what exactly it will affect on Porsche's end but I have already seen a few times about other brands cutting options etc to reduce some of the chip needed. The email, from what I remember, is extremely recent too. So, my guess about the chip shortage continuing past 2022 was correct.

I know a lot of cars on Porsche's end has been pushed back. So, sadly anything past my GT4's delivery will be delayed even further when mine was already pushed by back by a month.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Dudes & Finnish Babes - I'm having a 1st World crisis which requires your input.

ALL SSOTTers ARE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE AN OPINION!

So we're looking for a roadtrip SUV and been driving various rentals for 9 months as well as test driving researching others ... well the Mazda CX-5 & -9 definitely win for around-town cheap SUV - they drive awesome for the price, basically equalling or beating the Germans/other Asians at everything sub-X5 vehicles (i.e., x1/2/3/4)

However we snagged a new Toyota Highlander a few months ago and we've been driving it ever since: it's roomy, fairly comfy, and super convenient for road trips, especially mileage & range. Convenience-wise it's damn near perfect. The downsides are obviously power, it's a little floaty at high speeds, and it beeps for fucking everything. good lord those fucking beeps

With that, I've got an order in for an X5M non-comp: ind-ultra-lite Ametrin, ivory/night blue interior. beautiful fucking vehicle that drives like a gawddammed avenging valkyrie:



This individual-ultra-lite interior, kinda hard to tell it's navy blue:





I would've preferred Donington, but to get the right deal and the interior, and the October build I had to go Ametrin for various reasons.

So On To The 1st World Crisis

Toyota is coming out w/ a Highlander Bronze Edition Hybrid this fall:
• Kick ass range & gas mileage (500 miles!)
• Many of the electronic features, LKA, etc (which TBH I don't much use)
• Basically better everything that we already like in one we have ... except maybe power
• Obvs waY wAY WAY cheaper - 1/2 price for a somewhat larger vehicle
• I wouldn't worry about it either - in many way it'd be kind of disposable: door dings? Bird shit? Bugs? Rock chips? eh

Buh buh buh The X5M ...
• It's a muthafuckin X5M
• Wife likes the "athletics" / maneuverability at speed, i.e. the moose test.
• Obvs a ton more luxury but ... honestly that's nice but not needed
• More conspicuous, especially in these podunk towns we go through and/or stay in
• We drive a lot of extreme grade freeway miles - i.e., mountain runs next to semis, dumbshits; sharp corners at 80mph, etc
• Shitty range, shitty gas mileage, more frequent stops, possibly more vulnerable that way ... though we also don't do many desolate miles ...
• 2x the price of the Highlander
• The B&W stereo might not be available! I have it spec'd on the order, but it's recently disappeared from the configurator which would really annoy me ...

Basically it comes down to, is the safety of the maneuverability at speed worth 2x the price? And then the side benefits of more fun for me & more luxury for us both ...

No M or AMG or really anything over a Honda Civic is ever, objectively, worth the price we pay for them.

You have more than taken care of your finances over the years so you sit on a bunch of discretionary money. Someday you'll be dead and you cannot take said money with you. So, between now and death, once you pay to keep yourself alive and housed you can do what you want with money - whatever makes you happy. You wanna buy a cabin in the woods of finland and personally clear 3 acres of trees and shit? Do it. You wanna spend $70k a year on private Icelandic folk dance lessons? Fill. Yer. Fuckin. Boots, man.

Will your return on happiness from the M equal the use of the money? I've got a $140k CDN, 600 HP, 3.0s 0-60 mph station wagon in production so…I can see how one could say it might

[minn19]

Originally Posted by myzmak

No M or AMG or really anything over a Honda Civic is ever, objectively, worth the price we pay for them.

You have more than taken care of your finances over the years so you sit on a bunch of discretionary money. Someday you'll be dead and you cannot take said money with you. So, between now and death, once you pay to keep yourself alive and housed you can do what you want with money - whatever makes you happy. You wanna buy a cabin in the woods of finland and personally clear 3 acres of trees and shit? Do it. You wanna spend $70k a year on private Icelandic folk dance lessons? Fill. Yer. Fuckin. Boots, man.

Will your return on happiness from the M equal the use of the money? I've got a $140k CDN, 600 HP, 3.0s 0-60 mph station wagon in production so…I can see how one could say it might

Hence IMO GrussGott stop messing with BMW etc and go order a order a Cayenne GTS so you can actually enjoy driving that thing.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by minn19

Hence IMO GrussGott stop messing with BMW etc and go order a order a Cayenne GTS so you can actually enjoy driving that thing.

I tried to talk my uncle into getting the Cayenne Coupe Turbo GT and he said it was too unnecessary lol.

Like the freaken G-Wagon was necessary with its FAR overpriced markup.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by myzmak

you cannot take said money with you. So, between now and death, once you pay to keep yourself alive and housed ... Will your return on happiness from the M equal the use of the money? …I can see how one could say it might

as always Myz, excellent clarifying counsel! Also, we're considering moving to Vancouver in Jan/Feb for 6 months, and then doing a drive across CANada to see if we can extend our visas ANYway, if we do that, I'd love to see your new ride So don't be a stranger.

Originally Posted by minn19

Hence IMO GrussGott stop messing with BMW etc and go order a order a Cayenne GTS so you can actually enjoy driving that thing.

Well, the biggest problem there is dealerships:
(1.) I'm not paying MSRP, and
(2.) I like good service

-------- Boring Neurotic Rambling here ----------
Oddly, I've found a BMW sales guy that's straight-forward, willing to discount, ultra responsive, and works well via email & text ::knock, knock:: Now I've been sorta down this road before ... and a previous one tried to fuck me at paper-signing time sooooo .... BUT. The one I have now still beats everyone BMW, Porsche, MB I've contacted over the last year!

The other great salesguy I had was Greg Poland at Pacific BMW, but I paid for him to be great and that was ok then because it was for a semi-individual ED of one of the first US allocations of the F83.

Still, assuming the guy I have now signs the deal we've agreed to, I"ll be happy and THAT'S A BIG PART OF BEING HAPPY WITH THE CAR!! If I could find a Porsche guy I liked, who was willing to discount, and was responsive, then I'd have gone for it but I couldn't and I probably contacted ~80 of them.

I did find 2 Porsche dealers I liked:

* Porsche of Fairfield CT, Nick Murray's dealership - they were very respectful & responsive but no discounts cuz "just not the market"

* Loeber Porsche in Chicago, Dave the SM - he was very responsive, willing to discount, but allocations are fleeting and I'm sick of waiting around
------------- End Boring Rambling ---------------

And I gotta be honest:
The X5M may be the only car I want right now because they did an interesting thing with it: uncompromised badassery for an SUV.

It's the rare vehicle - one of the only ones? - where I feel like they took a luxury car and then made it drive as best as possible no matter what compromises that meant: no air suspension, harsher ride & seats, no RWS, stupidly fast.

Professional driver, prod X5M. on a track. Chasing a GT3RS.

Now, can a Cayenne GTS do that? Maaayyyybeeee, but to my butt, no. The Cayenne is just a much softer vehicle, which makes it much more practical/comfortable/better-resale vehicle, but not the weapon-feel of the X5M.

The X5M has that feel when you challenge it - you just start giggling. The GLE 63 does too, but more with sound than feel/drive. The Cayenne is a bit more sedate than either, performs as well in the corners, but not as dramatically, and loses by quite a bit in the acceleration.

The X5M really does feel like you could chase a GT3RS around a track - i.e., the dumbest, most impractical vehicle of the bunch - so i guess.

This sums it up:

[minn19]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

as always Myz, excellent clarifying counsel! Also, we're considering moving to Vancouver in Jan/Feb for 6 months, and then doing a drive across CANada to see if we can extend our visas ANYway, if we do that, I'd love to see your new ride So don't be a stranger.



Well, the biggest problem there is dealerships:
(1.) I'm not paying MSRP, and
(2.) I like good service

-------- Boring Neurotic Rambling here ----------
Oddly, I've found a BMW sales guy that's straight-forward, willing to discount, ultra responsive, and works well via email & text ::knock, knock:: Now I've been sorta down this road before ... and a previous one tried to fuck me at paper-signing time sooooo .... BUT. The one I have now still beats everyone BMW, Porsche, MB I've contacted over the last year!

The other great salesguy I had was Greg Poland at Pacific BMW, but I paid for him to be great and that was ok then because it was for a semi-individual ED of one of the first US allocations of the F83.

Still, assuming the guy I have now signs the deal we've agreed to, I"ll be happy and THAT'S A BIG PART OF BEING HAPPY WITH THE CAR!! If I could find a Porsche guy I liked, who was willing to discount, and was responsive, then I'd have gone for it but I couldn't and I probably contacted ~80 of them.

I did find 2 Porsche dealers I liked:

* Porsche of Fairfield CT, Nick Murray's dealership - they were very respectful & responsive but no discounts cuz "just not the market"

* Loeber Porsche in Chicago, Dave the SM - he was very responsive, willing to discount, but allocations are fleeting and I'm sick of waiting around
------------- End Boring Rambling ---------------

And I gotta be honest:
The X5M may be the only car I want right now because they did an interesting thing with it: uncompromised badassery for an SUV.

It's the rare vehicle - one of the only ones? - where I feel like they took a luxury car and then made it drive as best as possible no matter what compromises that meant: no air suspension, harsher ride & seats, no RWS, stupidly fast.

Professional driver, prod X5M. on a track. Chasing a GT3RS.

Now, can a Cayenne GTS do that? Maaayyyybeeee, but to my butt, no. The Cayenne is just a much softer vehicle, which makes it much more practical/comfortable/better-resale vehicle, but not the weapon-feel of the X5M.

The X5M has that feel when you challenge it - you just start giggling. The GLE 63 does too, but more with sound than feel/drive. The Cayenne is a bit more sedate than either, performs as well in the corners, but not as dramatically, and loses by quite a bit in the acceleration.

The X5M really does feel like you could chase a GT3RS around a track - i.e., the dumbest, most impractical vehicle of the bunch - so i guess.

This sums it up:

Uh ok, get over the MSRP thing as the Cayenne GTS etc is going to hold its value much better than any BMW M or not.

You don’t track so I guess I don’t get the bad assery part. So what if it can chase down an F1 car if you aren’t going to use it that way. I’ve driven both the X3MC and X5Ms and I just felt they were stupid fast and that’s where the good things ended when it came to driving them. Numb, competent but not exciting ZF8 and harsh ride with uncomfortable seats. Then the dumb digital layout etc.

I really don’t get the transaction part being part of the enjoyment of the vehicle. I can see it leaving a bad taste in your mouth and leaving to deal with another dealership but it shouldn’t have any bearing on the car enjoyment. If that were the case I would’ve never left BMW for me. I do get the not wanting to wait part.

Service is fluid, one dealership may be great until they treat their good people like shit and they leave. Or some dickhead dealership GM hires an even bigger dickhead of a service manager to go for more profits by legally robbing or trying to people. Yes I write this from experience.

Just a big difference of opinion.

Last, why reward a company that thinks their customers are idiot boomers and all that goes with that.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by minn19

Uh ok, get over the MSRP thing as the Cayenne GTS etc is going to hold its value much better than any BMW M or not.

You don’t track so I guess I don’t get the bad assery part. So what if it can chase down an F1 car if you aren’t going to use it that way. I’ve driven both the X3MC and X5Ms and I just felt they were stupid fast and that’s where the good things ended when it came to driving them. Numb, competent but not exciting ZF8 and harsh ride with uncomfortable seats. Then the dumb digital layout etc.

I really don’t get the transaction part being part of the enjoyment of the vehicle. I can see it leaving a bad taste in your mouth and leaving to deal with another dealership but it shouldn’t have any bearing on the car enjoyment. If that were the case I would’ve never left BMW for me. I do get the not wanting to wait part.

Service is fluid, one dealership may be great until they treat their good people like shit and they leave. Or some dickhead dealership GM hires an even bigger dickhead of a service manager to go for more profits by legally robbing or trying to people. Yes I write this from experience.

Just a big difference of opinion.

Last, why reward a company that thinks they customers are idiot boomers and all that goes with that.

It is legit the market right now. It is going to be hard getting discounts off of already low number GTS cars. Especially with Cali dealerships. They generally don't have a shortage of customers so, very few are willing to discount when they don't need to. It is about money really.

Even my uncle couldn't get anything off of his Cayenne Coupe GTS he just ordered. That has never happened before. Even if I ask right now, the best for GTS for me is probably also MSRP when I had gotten price off before.

It really is, how it is. GTS cars are low numbers to begin with. GT even fewer and they will be low even more due to the COVID and chip shortage.

I am okay with paying more if it is less of a headache. Obviously within reason. I am still Taiwanese, I don't go above a certain point when it comes to paying for anything.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

as always Myz, excellent clarifying counsel! Also, we're considering moving to Vancouver in Jan/Feb for 6 months, and then doing a drive across CANada to see if we can extend our visas ANYway, if we do that, I'd love to see your new ride So don't be a stranger.

Well, the biggest problem there is dealerships:
(1.) I'm not paying MSRP, and
(2.) I like good service

-------- Boring Neurotic Rambling here ----------
Oddly, I've found a BMW sales guy that's straight-forward, willing to discount, ultra responsive, and works well via email & text ::knock, knock:: Now I've been sorta down this road before ... and a previous one tried to fuck me at paper-signing time sooooo .... BUT. The one I have now still beats everyone BMW, Porsche, MB I've contacted over the last year!

The other great salesguy I had was Greg Poland at Pacific BMW, but I paid for him to be great and that was ok then because it was for a semi-individual ED of one of the first US allocations of the F83.

Still, assuming the guy I have now signs the deal we've agreed to, I"ll be happy and THAT'S A BIG PART OF BEING HAPPY WITH THE CAR!! If I could find a Porsche guy I liked, who was willing to discount, and was responsive, then I'd have gone for it but I couldn't and I probably contacted ~80 of them.

I did find 2 Porsche dealers I liked:

* Porsche of Fairfield CT, Nick Murray's dealership - they were very respectful & responsive but no discounts cuz "just not the market"

* Loeber Porsche in Chicago, Dave the SM - he was very responsive, willing to discount, but allocations are fleeting and I'm sick of waiting around
------------- End Boring Rambling ---------------

And I gotta be honest:
The X5M may be the only car I want right now because they did an interesting thing with it: uncompromised badassery for an SUV.

It's the rare vehicle - one of the only ones? - where I feel like they took a luxury car and then made it drive as best as possible no matter what compromises that meant: no air suspension, harsher ride & seats, no RWS, stupidly fast.

Professional driver, prod X5M. on a track. Chasing a GT3RS.

Now, can a Cayenne GTS do that? Maaayyyybeeee, but to my butt, no. The Cayenne is just a much softer vehicle, which makes it much more practical/comfortable/better-resale vehicle, but not the weapon-feel of the X5M.

The X5M has that feel when you challenge it - you just start giggling. The GLE 63 does too, but more with sound than feel/drive. The Cayenne is a bit more sedate than either, performs as well in the corners, but not as dramatically, and loses by quite a bit in the acceleration.

The X5M really does feel like you could chase a GT3RS around a track - i.e., the dumbest, most impractical vehicle of the bunch - so i guess.

This sums it up:

Hey, if you do that absolutely we should meet up!

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by minn19

the Cayenne GTS etc is going to hold its value much better
Just a big difference of opinion.

I agree on the value ... but then I'm not buying for value per myzmak's point, it's simply more that I hate doing business with dicks; just not gonna put up with it no matter how much I like the product.
As I'm sure you know (or not??), ordering a car is a long process - months - and things change and then you need to make changes. Doing business with dicks makes all of that aggravating in the extreme and, like I said, just not gonna put up with it anymore.

Example:

They stopped making the winter tires I need for the X5M, so I had ot change my order; the current dude updated my order and proactively sent me the full build sheet within 5 min of my email. BMW David would ghost me for weeks on something like that and then I'd only hear back after I cyberstalked him, then wouldn't send the updated build sheet to confirm, then I'd have to cyberstalk him again. Just ain't gonna ever do business like that again if I can help it.

Corporations gonna corporate, but individuals make a choice to be a dick so if I'm my rewards go to those who appreciate my business and save me aggravation.

As for the SUVs and driving I'd rank them this way:

* X5M - fastest, be it straight line or in corners, most engaging, best tech
* GLE63 - most fun, loudest, straight up hoonmobile, not as sharp, most luxe*
* Cayenne GTS - most practical: speed & cornering, but softer feeling in both; I'd compare it more to the M50i in feel than the X5M

I could be happy with any of them, but the X5M is the one I'd be most excited about ...

Now maybe after owning them I could change my mind - and I definitely wouldn't mind trying a new brand, but to my butt the X5M **light up** is by far the drive winner ... and if I'm comparing directly to the Cayenne GTS, I'd say the C-GTS never lights up - it's always great, but also never shifts into beast-mode.

I'd love to hear more on your comparo thoughts though, esp given your MB experience!

[GrussGott]

One other corporate note - my 2 cents of what's going on at BMW is what I've seen at every other tired corporation:

* Is it good for my career & the product? do it.

* Is it good for my career, but not the product? do it.

* Is it bad for my career, but good for the product? don't do it.

* Is it bad for my career & the product? don't do it.

2014 - 2019ish BMW had bad leadership, but more/less supported by the board ... until Kruger's Ignore-BEVs-moar-bigs-shit-on-the-M4 strategy went tits up.

Now we've got a Zipse who really does appear to be unwinding those mistakes BUT also continuing some stinkers, likely to appease those on the board who did support Kruger, and because it's hard to stop prod on major product lines, and because Germans don't like to lose face.

So, my 2 cents is, the shitty product/design/marketing teams will be out sometime next year ... maybe as early as December this year.

In short, I don't think we've seen the full Zipse yet, so I haven't written off BMW...

That said, if things had worked out with Porsche or Benz, I'd have gone that direction, and still might.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I agree on the value ... but then I'm not buying for value per myzmak's point, it's simply more that I hate doing business with dicks; just not gonna put up with it no matter how much I like the product.
As I'm sure you know (or not??), ordering a car is a long process - months - and things change and then you need to make changes. Doing business with dicks makes all of that aggravating in the extreme and, like I said, just not gonna put up with it anymore.

Example:

They stopped making the winter tires I need for the X5M, so I had ot change my order; the current dude updated my order and proactively sent me the full build sheet within 5 min of my email. BMW David would ghost me for weeks on something like that and then I'd only hear back after I cyberstalked him, then wouldn't send the updated build sheet to confirm, then I'd have to cyberstalk him again. Just ain't gonna ever do business like that again if I can help it.

Corporations gonna corporate, but individuals make a choice to be a dick so if I'm my rewards go to those who appreciate my business and save me aggravation.

As for the SUVs and driving I'd rank them this way:

* X5M - fastest, be it straight line or in corners, most engaging, best tech
* GLE63 - most fun, loudest, straight up hoonmobile, not as sharp, most luxe*
* Cayenne GTS - most practical: speed & cornering, but softer feeling in both; I'd compare it more to the M50i in feel than the X5M

I could be happy with any of them, but the X5M is the one I'd be most excited about ...

Now maybe after owning them I could change my mind - and I definitely wouldn't mind trying a new brand, but to my butt the X5M **light up** is by far the drive winner ... and if I'm comparing directly to the Cayenne GTS, I'd say the C-GTS never lights up - it's always great, but also never shifts into beast-mode.

I'd love to hear more on your comparo thoughts though, esp given your MB experience!

Weird and this is obviously personal but I’d put the X5M a very distant dead last in engagement. Hard riding suspension and stiff does not equate engagement IMO. Then would the MB and far and way the most obviously the Porsche.

Obviously just opinions.

[Arcades]

Originally Posted by minn19

Weird and this is obviously personal but I’d put the X5M a very distant dead last in engagement. Hard riding suspension and stiff does not equate engagement IMO. Then would the MB and far and way the most obviously the Porsche.

Obviously just opinions.

I had a bit of the same conversation regarding this with my detailer just yesterday while he was washing the GTS.

It isn't that I think the X3M/X5M isn't good. They are. The issue is, since I have gotten to drive Prosches, getting to know them more and more. I realize that BMW is lacking in a lot of departments when it comes to just driving. Why do you think everyone always seem to modify BMW cars? Aside from "personalizing" them, they do so because straight out of the box, they aren't ideal (suspensions especially).

Again, I own a few of them now, compared to any BMW M car, it isn't any real comparison in my eyes. Any current BMW car, they are outrageously fast but the speed just not engaging. We don't have the road, or the area to use them.

For example, even our F80/F82, which all of us had at a certain point. How often have you realized you have gone way above the speed limit and not really realized or feel you were going that fast? It is because once you get past that Torque feel in the modern M cars, the speed of them just passes you by. I have not had this happen with any Porsche car I have owned up to this point because their power curve are mostly linear. Even the more typical Macan/Cayenne have this behavior. So you feel the speed all the way through, it generally never catches you off guard.

I don't find any of the current M's really engaging. They are still blindingly fast, more than their Porsche counterparts but I don't care about it. You cannot use the speed most of the time, by the time you are kind of using it, you are far past the speed limit and there is no point.

Porsche has a huge lead when it comes to steering feel, suspension setup and chassis control that BMW M has never matched. I prefer driving the Macan GTS to my now, gone F80 M3 Comp. I don't even see the comparison as fair to my M3 and I loved that car. I had to do so much to get my M3 to feel close enough to the GTS.

I am not trying to be a Porsche fanboy but there is a big reason why I am moving to that brand and why a lot of people would say the same. It isn't about the speed, or the $$, it is simply BMW cannot match driving characteristics of Porsche cars. That is really the simple truth. BMW has to cater to certain crowds that makes them have to compromise their cars. Porsche don't have to, so they don't.

Regardless of how good the G80 is, the car is still compromised. The S58 is still a Turbo Straight Six with an even more noticeable turbo lag and early torque that throws the feel of the car off. I don't know as much about the engines in the GT cars (GT4 or the GT3) but they are absolutely amazing. Especially since they are still N/A. For them to be able to produce that type of power is something to be marveled at.

The only reason why I would ever consider a Benz AMG is for the V8 and that would be gone on most of their cars soon.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by minn19

Weird and this is obviously personal but I’d put the X5M a very distant dead last in engagement. Hard riding suspension and stiff does not equate engagement IMO. Then would the MB and far and way the most obviously the Porsche.

This definitely puts you in the minority of reviewers & people I've driven them with

I literally haven't met anyone nor read or watched any review that put *ANY* Cayenne as more engaging than the X5m, with the key being, when lit up. If I'm mistaken, let me know - That's DEFINITELY NOT to say any one person's opinion is better than another, but it's more like movie or music reviews: once you get to know what a reviewer likes you can gauge if you'll like it. So either I'm an outlier and missed all of the Cayenne-better-than-X5M reviews or you're the outlier and we just like different things about a vehicle.

I will say I NEVER track & am road course only, plus most of my routine fun comes from Canyon Carving - which is how I judged the C-GTS & X5M. I suspect given your track experience we might be looking for WAY different things ... In a canyon scenario, the Cayenne feels super smooth whereas the X5M feels giggly batshit; it's the vehicle that's always pushing you to go just a stitch faster around the next curve, just a bit more nutty; and straight line acceleration in the C-GTS is just flat out no comparison to the X5M

This pic tells that tale:



This is Cayenne Turbo getting beat by stock X5M & M50i ... it's just out-classed.


Clearly there's some feel-aspect of the Cayenne GTS in corners that you feel outweighs the fairly large power & acceleration deficit and raw cornering capability of the X5m? Or what would say the GTS is so much better at that it overcomes the power deficit? Say more about "engagement" - what exactly do you mean in an example back to back?


For me the Cayenne driving feel - the "engagement" - is an addictive smoothness in corners and recovery ; in canyon-carving, kind of a feel of up-down-over-around ease that puts a smile on your face ... but it doesn't rib-nudge me.

Versus the X5M, to my butt, has a that-wunt-nuttin feel when you light it up around a corner - maybe that's what you're calling "not engaging"? For me that *IS* engaging! It's a challenge: try-the-next-one-harder. And then again. And again. And frankly I get way too scared before I'm even close to the limit of that car, so I walk away thinking next-time...next-time.

So maybe that's the difference? The Cayenne is slower, but smoother whereas the X5M's number feel challenges me but disappoints you? I could see that.

Overall, that's why, had I been able to find a decent dealer & deal, I woulda gone Porsche - simply because I've never gotten any real it's-mine seat time in a Porsche.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Arcades

You cannot use the speed most of the time, by the time you are kind of using it, you are far past the speed limit and there is no point.

I am not trying to be a Porsche fanboy ... BMW cannot match driving characteristics of Porsche cars.

(a.) Power Usage
Ha, well when I'm fun driving - which sadly used to be 80% of my miles and I'm hoping to get back to that albeit with a less perfect tool - that isn't a problem. At least not one I worry about ... California is the most amazing motorsport state i've ever been in, and I'm starting to learn Oregon ain't too shabby either. There's some really crazy shit! Not to mention the Oregon coast (going south) is 3 hours of jaw-dropping beauty! And wandering wackadoos.

(b.) Porsche Fanboy
I'm a Porsche Fanboi! If only for the company - seriously one the best atom-not-bits product companies out there right now. I'm truly hoping their ZOMG LOW PRODUCTION is a function of part shortages and NOT a hat tip to Rolex's luxury brand sales model. If it starts looking like the latter, I'd be for sure out. With that, I'm guessing my first Porsche will be electric.

(c.) Driving Characteristics
I completely agree that BMW can't match Porsche; though, IMO, I don't think they should try - rather BMW should aim for what they had with the E9x which, for me, was the PERFECT car!


Which brings up an interesting question: minn19 did you have an E9x? How'd that rate on your engagement scale? I know many found it lacking low-end torque, etc but for me it was the perfect car **when lit up**. Under 60MPH it was a creaky mess, but > 60 & 5,000 RPM it was a screaming war machine. I routinely drove mine on the freeway @ ~4,500 RPM and just loved the linear power. Plus I could put either front tire onto a dime, literally. I once kissed two cones on a bet.

The X5M reminds me of the E9x, but it is more numb, I agree. Your thoughts???

How about you Arcades?? I can't remember if you had an E9x ...

Anyone else?