Power potential limited?

[MisterEm]

If the stock N54 can hold 700+whp with turbo upgrades - what makes you think the S55 with upgraded internals, cooling, and fueling will be held at a lower ceiling? This is mechanically speaking of course.

We should expect a lag time of several months to a year post-release for the tuning company to find the ECU bottlenecks.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

Oh that will always happen.

+1

With little cost one can grab a N54 335 and tune it and easily hit 500whp with bolt ons. They're faster than most of the ESS V8 M3s with supercharger kits. Toss in a turbo upgrade and look at 600+whp territory without much effort.

Short story, watch out for the tuned N54s. That's where it's at for bang for your buck power. Even a stock F80 may want to watch out for a the N55s once they get going with bolt ons. People are hitting 370whp without too much effort and that's without a good DCI or FMI.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by basscadet

Unfortunately, BMW does not live in a bubble and the competition is adapting and improving at a very fast pace.

I want a M3 in my garage. But I don't want some kid with a JB4 and 5 year-old 335i to blow my doors off on the street either.

Sounds like a superiority issue then. There will always be tuned cars that are faster, that's just a fact of life.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, BMW does not care what type of performance aftermarket tuners get out of their cars. BMW does not change it's lineup over that. They are not going to make a 500 hp M3 because they are worried of anybody slapping a JB4 on one of their "lesser" cars to get to the same numbers of an M car.

Besides, M cars have always been about the overall balance of their cars and not sheer HP/torque numbers.

[KevN27]

Originally Posted by MisterEm

If the stock N54 can hold 700+whp with turbo upgrades - what makes you think the S55 with upgraded internals, cooling, and fueling will be held at a lower ceiling? This is mechanically speaking of course.

We should expect a lag time of several months to a year post-release for the tuning company to find the ECU bottlenecks.

This. F80 will be faster, lighter, and a better car all around.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Sounds like a superiority issue then. There will always be tuned cars that are faster, that's just a fact of life.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, BMW does not care what type of performance aftermarket tuners get out of their cars. BMW does not change it's lineup over that. They are not going to make a 500 hp M3 because they are worried of anybody slapping a JB4 on one of their "lesser" cars to get to the same numbers of an M car.

Besides, M cars have always been about the overall balance of their cars and not sheer HP/torque numbers.

agree.....i bet BMW execs either don't bother to pay attention, or just laugh it off....LOL

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The problem is that the S65 is not an efficient engine. It's true that they could have made it more efficient (by employing direct injection for example). But the fact is that efficiency and high RPM power production are diametrically opposing goals. At some point you hit the point of diminishing returns and have to change course. Note that GM and Ford have more displacement to work with and generally these engines make peak power at much lower RPM than the S65. By the way, these engines borrow heavily from the light truck siblings so there is cost sharing here just like there is with BMW. And Audi and Mercedes are abandoning naturally aspirated V8s just like BMW is. The 4.2L Audi V8 is being dropped despite its use of GDI, so they see the writing on the wall just like BMW does.

I feel there must be more to it than simply fuel economy. The M3/S65 was (and is) a terrible gas guzzler but that didn't stop us from buying it to the tune of 10,000 cars per year.

Furthermore, improving the mileage on a limited production car won't really affect corporate efficiency numbers. And finally, developing a new engine costs a lot of dough. Why do that unless you have no other path forward. My guess is that some other factor played a large part - perhaps emissions? Perhaps something else?

Pat

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

It´s not only an rumor !!!

Until today no one has ever tuned an BMW F..-Model ECU. Also well known tuners with tight relations with BMW as AC Schnitzer only offer Tuning-Boxes (piggybacks), because it is nearly impossible to tune the ECU itself. According to my informations there are not alone electronical/software problems but also simple "mechanical" problems to open the ECU-box without destroying it ... minimum one of two boxes breaks if they try to open it - the most simple tuning blocker!!!

Greetings BMW M3 CRT

There are plenty of software tunes available for the F10, apart from the M5. Early model F10s are easier to tap into than later models though.

A few examples:

http://www.pp-performance.de/Chiptun...r523i150kW.htm

http://www.ds-motorsport.de/bmw-tuni...r/bmw-f10.html


AC Schnitzer, Hartge etc choose to use a piggyback for other reasons than ECU encryption. Mapping of a generic piggyback is much easier than developing new software for the ECU. You retain the safety features of the stock ECU and it's also easier for European homologation because you can map the piggyback to only alter boost etc, outside the EU emissions test cycles. When going to TÜV that is much easier to test, because the stock BMW files are still in place and the car will pass emissions testing. With a software remap, there is always the risk of not meeting emissions requirements, requiring remapping and new testing (expensive).

[mkoesel]

I don't necessarily agree with you on all of this, but it's not these details that are really important in my opinion. At the end of the day it is corporate image that lays the path to fiscal success. The business case for the S65 just did not make it when you look at the picture BMW is trying to paint of themselves. A fully turbocharged engine line-up, whether it can technically be demonstrated as a more green solution or not, is what BMW deemed necessary for consistency in order to market themselves in such a way to maximize profitability. It is that simple.

It is the observed evolution of the company and indeed of the industry as a whole. And while I don't have proof either way, my guy tells me that automobiles are not getting cheaper to produce with these new trends. If costs are being cut as part sharing increases it is, by my thinking, in no small part to merely offset the continued tightening of regulations both in the areas of emissions/efficiency and safety.

Originally Posted by catpat8000

I feel there must be more to it than simply fuel economy. The M3/S65 was (and is) a terrible gas guzzler but that didn't stop us from buying it to the tune of 10,000 cars per year.

Furthermore, improving the mileage on a limited production car won't really affect corporate efficiency numbers. And finally, developing a new engine costs a lot of dough. Why do that unless you have no other path forward. My guess is that some other factor played a large part - perhaps emissions? Perhaps something else?

Pat

[paddy335]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

agree.....i bet BMW execs either don't bother to pay attention, or just laugh it off....LOL

No way, they are much smarter than that. I bet they pay close attention and use it as information gathering. The more info the better.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

agree.....i bet BMW execs either don't bother to pay attention, or just laugh it off....LOL

I disagree man. Considering that BMW employees/insiders are active contributors to this forum, I think they pay A LOT of attention to what's going on.

[Chill72]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

+1

With little cost one can grab a N54 335 and tune it and easily hit 500whp with bolt ons. They're faster than most of the ESS V8 M3s with supercharger kits. Toss in a turbo upgrade and look at 600+whp territory without much effort.

Short story, watch out for the tuned N54s. That's where it's at for bang for your buck power. Even a stock F80 may want to watch out for a the N55s once they get going with bolt ons. People are hitting 370whp without too much effort and that's without a good DCI or FMI.

One can say that GT-R is best bang for the buck when it comes to power...what's you point

[pkimM3r]

you guys really think that bmw execs care about the 1% when they have a shit ton of other customers to satisfy?

[paddy335]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

you guys really think that bmw execs care about the 1% when they have a shit ton of other customers to satisfy?

Absolutely. They give a shit about the 0.1% niches, let alone the 1%'s. The 1%'s are a big deal. They aren't at the top of the hill for not knowing every detail of their game.

And they aren't arrogant enough to know that some bright spark out there has some great idea or angle or approach that they hadn't thought of.

Intel is king in their world. Apart from profit.

[pkimM3r]

HAHAH ok....that's why every new iteration of their m cars, there is pretty much complaining all across every board on these forums, but the general public loooooves it oh so much.

by your profit logic, it makes sense to cater to the 99% doesn't it?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

HAHAH ok....that's why every new iteration of their m cars, there is pretty much complaining all across every board on these forums, but the general public loooooves it oh so much.

What you're referring to is a different issue altogether. BMW paying attention to the 1% and BMW satisfying 100% of their customer base are two very different topics. Message boards comprise a very small percentage of actual owners. IF BMW didn't pay attention to the small niche buyers, cars like the manual transmission BMW M5's (..both E60 and F10) wouldn't be available. Wild & crazy Individual colors wouldn't be available. BMW listens!

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

What you're referring to is a different issue altogether. BMW paying attention to the 1% and BMW satisfying 100% of their customer base are two very different topics. Message boards comprise a very small percentage of actual owners. IF BMW didn't pay attention to the small niche buyers, cars like the manual transmission BMW M5's (..both E60 and F10) wouldn't be available. Wild & crazy Individual colors wouldn't be available. BMW listens!

i get your point but i believe the ones screaming we need manuals (!) are still the top x% of said 99%......so from the same population.....which still leaves the 1% out.

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by MisterEm

If the stock N54 can hold 700+whp with turbo upgrades - what makes you think the S55 with upgraded internals, cooling, and fueling will be held at a lower ceiling? This is mechanically speaking of course.

We should expect a lag time of several months to a year post-release for the tuning company to find the ECU bottlenecks.

My understanding is that the s55 has smaller turbos and thus less power potential than the N54. Of course the S55 is stronger in that it can run all day long at the track while the N54 can't.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by basscadet

My understanding is that the s55 has smaller turbos and thus less power potential than the N54. Of course the S55 is stronger in that it can run all day long at the track while the N54 can't.

Smaller turbos? Where did you get that info?

The N54 at the track just needs an upgraded oil cooler. Bigger intercooler helps too.

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I don't know how many times I have to say this, BMW does not care what type of performance aftermarket tuners get out of their cars. BMW does not change it's lineup over that.

Besides, M cars have always been about the overall balance of their cars and not sheer HP/torque numbers.

Well then, does BMW care about the competition? AMG and Cadillac smell blood in the water and are bringing big guns to the fight. I find it hard to believe BMW execs are oblivious to that.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by basscadet

Well then, does BMW care about the competition? AMG and Cadillac smell blood in the water and are bringing big guns to the fight. I find it hard to believe BMW execs are oblivious to that.

So what's your question? Are you still worried that the competition might have higher hp engines? I didn't realize we were in a muscle car competition.

[basscadet]

So Ferrari, Lamborghini, and McClaren are in a muscle car war?

The chances are very high I'm getting an F80. I just wish I didn't need to worry about beating Mustangs when at a stoplight.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

+1

With little cost one can grab a N54 335 and tune it and easily hit 500whp with bolt ons. They're faster than most of the ESS V8 M3s with supercharger kits. Toss in a turbo upgrade and look at 600+whp territory without much effort.

Short story, watch out for the tuned N54s. That's where it's at for bang for your buck power. Even a stock F80 may want to watch out for a the N55s once they get going with bolt ons. People are hitting 370whp without too much effort and that's without a good DCI or FMI.

no, you cant make 500whp with bolt ons.

you cant make 500whp with E85, meth and bolt ons

you need upgraded turbos and meth and e85 to make 500whp

a supercharged m3 will crush a bolt on 335 from a roll unless its at really high elevation