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      08-22-2019, 10:52 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by SunnyD View Post
I don't understand this statement...M3 CS production numbers totaled 1,200 units worldwide, while the GTS totaled 800.
Sorry you are correct! I was under the impression it was 800~ units to NA, actually its worldwide. Cant seem to find a concrete number on NA units but seems like mid 300's.
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      08-22-2019, 10:54 AM   #46
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I agree that the CS models will undergo huge depreciation. Won't matter if you have an M3 or M4. Still a "CS".
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      08-22-2019, 10:56 AM   #47
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Sorry you are correct! I was under the impression it was 800~ units to NA, actually its worldwide. Cant seem to find a concrete number on NA units but seems like mid 300's.
It was supposed to be 350 of the 700 for NA initially, but supposedly BMW overproduced based on VIN up to as much as 820ish worldwide including preproduction cars. I've been tracking GTS cars especially NA cars in my database and I'm not anywhere near the so called 350 number. I'll update the group if I ever get there.
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      08-22-2019, 10:58 AM   #48
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feel free to make me a bet then. it can also be a friendly bet if you don't want to put any money down.
I mean that's the fun thing about the automotive world... no one knows what it's going to do.

Past trends of late model BMW's are not on your side though. Like I said.. the last M car to go OVER MSRP has been the 1M and prices have held stable ever since. One can argue the 1M is also a better "pure" M car over an F8X model made.

I hope I'm wrong and our cars shoot up in value! But my experience in the industry tells me otherwise.

Will it be another Z3 M Coupe? 1M? E30? Who knows!
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      08-22-2019, 11:00 AM   #49
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I agree that the CS models will undergo huge depreciation. Won't matter if you have an M3 or M4. Still a "CS".
and a GTS is just an M4? Are we getting into a pissing match like Porsche owners?
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      08-22-2019, 11:13 AM   #50
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Because that's what BMW says the GTS weighs. Also, doesn't make any sense that the roll bar in the GTS would weigh more than the rear seats. I know the GTS exhaust is lighter than the CS exhaust. What does BMW say is the official curb weight for your CS?
Why wouldn’t it make any sense that a large hunk of metal that is bolted/welded in etc wouldn’t weigh as much if not more than some leather cushions and seat belts? Regardless, there certainly isn’t hundreds of pounds difference between the two cars.

I’m not sure what BMW says, but I learned long ago not to go off of advertised weights as they rarely come close to real world ones. As said they usually go off dry/base etc. That being said I thought it would be under 3600 pounds since it is a base no option CS. Disappointingly it wasn’t/isn’t.
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      08-22-2019, 11:13 AM   #51
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I mean that's the fun thing about the automotive world... no one knows what it's going to do.

Past trends of late model BMW's are not on your side though. Like I said.. the last M car to go OVER MSRP has been the 1M and prices have held stable ever since. One can argue the 1M is also a better "pure" M car over an F8X model made.

I hope I'm wrong and our cars shoot up in value! But my experience in the industry tells me otherwise.

Will it be another Z3 M Coupe? 1M? E30? Who knows!
What about the M1? M3 CRT? M3 GTS? They all sell for over MRSP these days if you can find one for sale. Also, by what standard are you measuring that the 1M a more "pure" M car than the GTS? the fact that it only came in manual?

The GTS is the first track ready car BMW has ever brought over to the US and likely the last (at least for a long time). Just that alone is going to be enough to give it significant appreciation in the future. It's also loved by its owners, many of whom including myself cross shop and have cars such as GT2RS etc. If GTS owners hated their cars, then I could possible see how these cars might continue to tank in value (as it's a niche market) but this just isn't the case. Have you ever met a GTS owner that does not rave about their car? I haven't. BMW did an amazing job with this car, considering they didn't start out with a dedicated platform like the 911. I get that this car is not going to be for everyone hence why BMW only made some ~700 worldwide.
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      08-22-2019, 11:14 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by nickl630 View Post
and a GTS is just an M4? Are we getting into a pissing match like Porsche owners?
Please, please go out and test drive a GTS and then immediately afterwards test drive a base M4 and report back!
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      08-22-2019, 11:22 AM   #53
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Why wouldn’t it make any sense that a large hunk of metal that is bolted/welded in etc wouldn’t weigh as much if not more than some leather cushions and seat belts? Regardless, there certainly isn’t hundreds of pounds difference between the two cars.

I’m not sure what BMW says, but I learned long ago not to go off of advertised weights as they rarely come close to real world ones. As said they usually go off dry/base etc. That being said I thought it would be under 3600 pounds since it is a base no option CS. Disappointingly it wasn’t/isn’t.
I don't understand your logic. BMW took the rear seats out on the GTS to save weight but you're saying by adding in the roll cage, they likely did not save any weight and may have added even more weight to the car rather than just leaving the rear seats intact. Makes no sense to me but ok, to each their own.
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      08-22-2019, 11:24 AM   #54
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My understanding is that there was initially 700 allocated globally, 300 for North America. A month or two after the initial production run concluded, BMW allocated another 104 VINs to North America and started up production again. My understanding is this run of cars has a different version of iDrive, the only differentiating feature besides VIN.

That's my impression of a month or so of researching the car, reading forum posts, reading auto journals, and watching youtube videos. I imagine at this point, like another poster said, ~15-30 of them have been totalled, probably on the lower side of that range given the extremely low mileage of most samples.

This discussion reminds me of cryptocurrency and market speculation forums, nobody can read the future but people still want to argue about appreciation vs depreciation. Go out and burn up some sport cup 2s, the weather is great in North America at least . Went for a short drive yesterday, this car is comical in a light rain.

Last edited by Gomeler; 08-22-2019 at 11:30 AM..
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      08-22-2019, 11:29 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by 2K7 View Post
What about the M1? M3 CRT? M3 GTS? They all sell for over MRSP these days if you can find one for sale. Also, by what standard are you measuring that the 1M a more "pure" M car than the GTS? the fact that it only came in manual?

The GTS is the first track ready car BMW has ever brought over to the US and likely the last (at least for a long time). Just that alone is going to be enough to give it significant appreciation in the future. It's also loved by its owners, many of whom including myself cross shop and have cars such as GT2RS etc. If GTS owners hated their cars, then I could possible see how these cars might continue to tank in value (as it's a niche market) but this just isn't the case. Have you ever met a GTS owner that does not rave about their car? I haven't. BMW did an amazing job with this car, considering they didn't start out with a dedicated platform like the 911. I get that this car is not going to be for everyone hence why BMW only made some ~700 worldwide.
Unless it is really really rare, I don’t get the car investment argument. After paying storage, insurance, taxes, future dollar values etc etc how much is one really making over 10-20-30 years? I’ve always thought there were much better/easier investments than cars (at this level) at least. Could they appreciate? Sure/maybe, but as much as really valuable older cars, I highly doubt it. Sure it’s sort of rare in a sense, but it still has essentially the same interior and drivetrain S55/DCT as 60,000 other ones. Will a twin turbo I6 with an already outdated DCT be in really high demand in 30-50 years like some Ferrari’s, Porsche’s or even first run Shelby cars? Call me highly skeptical.

Also, if my M4 CS hits its residual in 3 years I’ll be slight amazed. So I’m under no illusions of my cars value either.
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      08-22-2019, 11:30 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Gomeler View Post
My understanding is that there was initially 700 allocated globally, 300 for North America. A month or two after the initial production run concluded, BMW allocated another 104 VINs to North America and started up production again. My understanding is this run of cars has a different version of iDrive, the only differentiating feature besides VIN.

That's my impression of a month or so of researching the car, reading forum posts, reading auto journals, and watching youtube videos. I imagine at this point, like another poster said, ~15-30 of them have been totalled, probably on the lower side of that range given the extremely low mileage of most samples.

This discussion reminds me of cryptocurrency and market speculation forums, nobody can read the future but people still want to argue about appreciation vs depreciation. Go out and burn up some sport cup 2s, the weather is great in North America at least . Went for a short drive yesterday, this car is comical in the rain.
Funny you should mention cryptos because I've been an avid supporter since the beginning. From trash to treasure, people made fun of me but I'm no stranger to being laughed at or made fun of. After the initial shock usually comes jealousy followed by envy.
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      08-22-2019, 11:36 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by 2K7 View Post
I don't understand your logic. BMW took the rear seats out on the GTS to save weight but you're saying by adding in the roll cage, they likely did not save any weight and may have added even more weight to the car rather than just leaving the rear seats intact. Makes no sense to me but ok, to each their own.
You don’t understand the logic of taking something out and adding something that is possibly heavier? They took the seats out to fit the cage as well. I can’t help you there if you for some reason don’t understand that. My guess is the GTS is 50 to maybe 80 pounds lighter based on the other thread and my own cars weight. Significant yes, but hundreds of pounds significant, not even close. To be honest I’m not even sure how BMW pulled that off considering the other stuff they added, water injection, wing, boat anchor 666 wheels etc. Kudos to the engineers.
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      08-22-2019, 11:42 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Unless it is really really rare, I don’t get the car investment argument. After paying storage, insurance, taxes, future dollar values etc etc how much is one really making over 10-20-30 years? I’ve always thought there were much better/easier investments than cars (at this level) at least. Could they appreciate? Sure/maybe, but as much as really valuable older cars, I highly doubt it. Sure it’s sort of rare in a sense, but it still has essentially the same interior and drivetrain S55/DCT as 60,000 other ones. Will a twin turbo I6 with an already outdated DCT be in really high demand in 30-50 years like some Ferrari’s, Porsche’s or even first run Shelby cars? Call me highly skeptical.

Also, if my M4 CS hits its residual in 3 years I’ll be slight amazed. So I’m under no illusions of my cars value either.
700-800 units of a car worldwide is considered really rare by most people's standards unless you are getting into ultra rare limited edition bugattis etc.

Collectors do not worry about paying storage fees. They have their own space whether it's used or just sitting there, as for insurance, unless you have a lien/loan and are required to carry full coverage, insurance is VERY cheap without collision.

You can't just look at individual components when assessing a car's value. You have to look at the sum of the complete package/picture and as a whole, the GTS is a different car than an M4 no matter how you try to knock it. People have tried to go and buy individual "GTS" components and build but at the end of the day, their car still ends up "feeling", drives and sounds different than a GTS.
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      08-22-2019, 11:48 AM   #59
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You don’t understand the logic of taking something out and adding something that is possibly heavier? They took the seats out to fit the cage as well. I can’t help you there if you for some reason don’t understand that. My guess is the GTS is 50 to maybe 80 pounds lighter based on the other thread and my own cars weight. Significant yes, but hundreds of pounds significant, not even close. To be honest I’m not even sure how BMW pulled that off considering the other stuff they added, water injection, wing, boat anchor 666 wheels etc. Kudos to the engineers.
BMW took the rear seats out to save weight so it does not make sense that they would replace it with a roll cage that weighs just as much as the seats or even more than the seats. By doing that, they would be adding more weight to the car which is counter productive to what their goal is. I could care less whether you understand that. Seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
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      08-22-2019, 11:51 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by 2K7 View Post
700-800 units of a car worldwide is considered really rare by most people's standards unless you are getting into ultra rare limited edition bugattis etc.

Collectors do not worry about paying storage fees. They have their own space whether it's used or just sitting there, as for insurance, unless you have a lien/loan and are required to carry full coverage, insurance is VERY cheap without collision.

You can't just look at individual components when assessing a car's value. You have to look at the sum of the complete package/picture and as a whole, the GTS is a different car than an M4 no matter how you try to knock it. People have tried to go and buy individual "GTS" components and build but at the end of the day, their car still ends up "feeling", drives and sounds different than a GTS.
You are taking the conversation in different direction and it gets personal for some reason. I’m purely trying to talk factual weight period.

As for the insurance, I highly doubt it is that cheap if it is an expensive collector item, especially a car. And if it is an investment they should be worrying about it as it goes to the bottom line. Look at the cars that go for huge money, they are very very rare and actually do make the speculator/collector money. You can do the math yourself. See what a low mileage example goes for, add that into storage, maintenance, insurance and project what you think it will be worth in x number of years. Most of those cars you meant aren’t making the collectors very much money in the end. Even the 1M, you need to keep it mint, rarely drive it and you make a little bit over what you paid for it. Factor everything else in plus money/dollar devaluation and they probably didn’t make anything.

Bottom line, cars are meant to be driven and most aren’t great investment tools. If you are building a museum with a collection for the love of it then good for that person. That’s a different story though as well.
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      08-22-2019, 11:53 AM   #61
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You are taking the conversation in different direction and it gets personal for some reason. I’m purely trying to talk factual weight period.

As for the insurance, I highly doubt it is that cheap if it is an expensive collector item, especially a car. And if it is an investment they should be worrying about it as it goes to the bottom line. Look at the cars that go for huge money, they are very very rare and actually do make the speculator/collector money. You can do the math yourself. See what a low mileage example goes for, add that into storage, maintenance, insurance and project what you think it will be worth in x number of years. Most of those cars you meant aren’t making the collectors very much money in the end. Even the 1M, you need to keep it mint, rarely drive it and you make a little bit over what you paid for it. Factor everything else in plus money/dollar devaluation and they probably didn’t make anything.

Bottom line, cars are meant to be driven and most aren’t great investment tools. If you are building a museum with a collection for the love of it then good for that person. That’s a different story though as well.
Agree 100%. It seems like he thinks he's being personally attacked when a counter argument is being presented.

I keep trying to have a good conversation about the collectibily of a car and get "okay make a 10k bet" and apparently the GTS is God's gift to track cars and the CS is a pesant.
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      08-22-2019, 11:55 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by 2K7 View Post
BMW took the rear seats out to save weight so it does not make sense that they would replace it with a roll cage that weighs just as much as the seats or even more than the seats. By doing that, they would be adding more weight to the car which is counter productive to what their goal is. I could care less whether you understand that. Seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing.
I honestly don’t know what to tell you. Matter has weight to it period. Metal is heavy no? Even if it is titanium etc. It’s going to weigh a lot and needs to to support the forces in a bad crash to do its job. I don’t know what the seats weigh and nor do I know what the roll bar weighs. I don’t think it is unreasonable to think that it could weigh more than the seats and associated hardware or very close. You do, so be it.
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      08-22-2019, 12:00 PM   #63
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You are taking the conversation in different direction and it gets personal for some reason. I’m purely trying to talk factual weight period.

As for the insurance, I highly doubt it is that cheap if it is an expensive collector item, especially a car. And if it is an investment they should be worrying about it as it goes to the bottom line. Look at the cars that go for huge money, they are very very rare and actually do make the speculator/collector money. You can do the math yourself. See what a low mileage example goes for, add that into storage, maintenance, insurance and project what you think it will be worth in x number of years. Most of those cars you meant aren’t making the collectors very much money in the end. Even the 1M, you need to keep it mint, rarely drive it and you make a little bit over what you paid for it. Factor everything else in plus money/dollar devaluation and they probably didn’t make anything.

Bottom line, cars are meant to be driven and most aren’t great investment tools. If you are building a museum with a collection for the love of it then good for that person. That’s a different story though as well.
It's nothing personal for me. Insurance is $40/mo on the GTS for me if I pull collision. $40 is pretty cheap. Can't even get the internet in your home for $40 a month in most places.
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      08-22-2019, 12:03 PM   #64
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This conversation has gone to shit HA!
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      08-22-2019, 12:05 PM   #65
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Sure there are. Economy possibly slowing, the fact that it is a two passenger car with a roll bar (limiting the market of available buyers). Competition the such as the new mid engine Vette possibly being cheaper than a used GTS etc.

That being said, I do think the GTS is a hell of a deal/package in the 80s etc.
What I meant is... right now.

If the base C8 embarrasses it, Kim launches and the economy tanks, sure. Values always subject to change.

The design variables you mention have already taken their toll. Market isn't going to wake up tomorrow and realize it's more race car than grocery getter. Dwindling for sale #'s reflect an increasing number recognizing the value at current prices though.
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      08-22-2019, 12:07 PM   #66
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Agree 100%. It seems like he thinks he's being personally attacked when a counter argument is being presented.

I keep trying to have a good conversation about the collectibily of a car and get "okay make a 10k bet" and apparently the GTS is God's gift to track cars and the CS is a pesant.
If you're trying to have a productive "good" conversation about a car's collective potential, in the future, you might not want to start by laughing/ridiculing people with "Also... pretty amusing to read some people here think the GTS will be worth 175-200k" and then turning around and playing the victim.
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