10-27-2015, 05:02 PM | #45 | |
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And yes, like yourself I passed on them too. M division did a phenomal job with the valving on the passive set-up. I actually drove the EDC first and was going to order my M4 with it until I managed to test drive a non EDC M4 and changed my order... put the $1000 in extra mods, money better spent in my mind... |
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10-27-2015, 05:25 PM | #46 | |
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10-27-2015, 08:42 PM | #47 | |
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Tracks in general do not have or need the damping that street driving requires. The suspension doesn't need to deal with a lot of things that cars are subjected to on the street, nor does it need to work as hard, therefore it doesn't require as advanced damping. Also, on that some theme, coil-overs allow for ride hight adjustment and corner weighting, another thing that isn't a top priority off the track. I never say passive systems suck, I said they are inferior than their counterparts for what they are required to do. Hell, on an ideal track, track cars don't even need suspension damping at all, look at go-carts.
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10-27-2015, 09:06 PM | #48 | |
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10-27-2015, 10:46 PM | #49 | |
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Nobody has said adaptive dampers are better than track coil overs for track duty. They DO have higher capability for street comfort and light track duty than the OEM Passive suspension.
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10-28-2015, 06:18 AM | #50 | |
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10-28-2015, 12:53 PM | #51 | ||
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And if Racer20 is right, does that mean that the Porsche GT3 RS (or even the last GT2 RS) is less of a track car than the M4 GTS? Or does it mean that the BMW Adaptive M Suspension is not as sophisticated as PASM?
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10-28-2015, 05:10 PM | #52 | |
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Keep it apples to apples. The same logic applies to Porsche. Non-adaptive to adaptive. You take the same shock of any manufacture, one being adaptive and one passive and the active one will do a better job on the street to counteract being upset. Non-adaptive are used for racing applications because of the things listed above. Adjustability, more controlled surface/environment, etc. No passive shock that has to be tuned for a specific range will match one that is designed to adjust on the fly in milliseconds thereby giving it a greater performance range. Do not take that as passive systems suck, because that is not true obviously, but apples to apples, same shock , one passive the other active, the active will out perform it in chassis/body control. |
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10-28-2015, 05:20 PM | #53 | |||
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Racer20 offered a very general statement: Quote:
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10-28-2015, 06:08 PM | #54 |
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Not really. My statement was in the context of the F80's adaptive system, which is probably not sufficient in stock form for an all out track car. In general, if an adaptive system and passive system are both tuned for the same application, the adaptive system should ALWAYS have more capability. It is able to provide optimum damping characteristics over a MUCH wider range of driving conditions. This is basic physics.
There's no reason an adaptive system can't be tuned to be fully capable of racetrack duty, but that's not the only consideration that BMW and Porsche had to make. Height adjustment, cost of development, marketing, etc. etc. are also reasons. Porsche decided to go one way with their system, BMW decided to go the other way. We will likely never know the real reasons. So, to be clear, Yes. Further, I believe (85% sure) that the 991's PASM and the F80's M Adaptive are basically the same system from the same supplier.
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10-28-2015, 06:18 PM | #55 | |
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So, if I am not misunderstanding, you are suggesting that this was likely a decision based more on time/cost constraints (due to additional tuning/development of the active suspension for this application) or marketing considerations than on technical reasons.
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10-28-2015, 06:21 PM | #56 | |
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10-28-2015, 08:10 PM | #57 | |
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IMO, the best active systems today are the magnetic shock technology that uses magnetic particles in the fluid. That technology is so quick acting that they have to program a limit on how fast to make it react. I had it on my Audi TTRS, and no matter what I threw at it, it stayed 100% controlled and composed at all times, under any circumstances. VERY confidence inspiring. It is used by Ferrari, Audi R8, TTRS, and now the lesser S3. Also used on CTS-V, ATS-V, and C7 Corvettes. With active systems today performance is more based in processor reaction times and the coding software used in its algorithm profile.
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10-28-2015, 08:20 PM | #58 |
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I feel exactly the same way as you (I have it on my car): that is why I was curious as to what might be reasons behind BMW's decision not to use it on the M4 GTS.
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10-29-2015, 01:12 PM | #59 | |
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I also came across an interesting article about the 991 gt3 suspension http://www.elephantracing.com/tool-box/specs/991/GT3/991-gt3-suspension-overview.htm Author is suggesting its closer to 997 cup car than base 991. Suspension is a full coil over with adaptive dampers. My read is that bmw went with a half measure for f8x adaptive dampers while porsche went "all in" with gt3 adaptive dampers and implemented the superior system that you described. |
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10-29-2015, 02:46 PM | #60 | |
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Simply put, it seems Porsche went for an adaptive coilover system on the GT3 while BMW went for a passive coilover on the GTS.
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10-29-2015, 05:10 PM | #61 | ||
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10-29-2015, 06:52 PM | #62 |
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Do car manufacturers like BMW and Porsche develop their own software for the adaptive adapters (or customize the software to some significant extent), or do they basically buy a complete hardware/software package?
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10-29-2015, 06:55 PM | #63 |
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BMW develops their own. GM buys it from the supplier. Not sure about Porsche.
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10-29-2015, 07:06 PM | #64 |
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So, going back to why BMW did not use adaptive dampers on the M4 GTS, is it also possible that ZF did not offer an adaptive coilover system like the Bilstein one used in the GT3 RS and developing the software for the Bilstein dampers would have been too involved? Or is it easy to port the software from one brand of adaptive dampers to another?
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10-29-2015, 07:13 PM | #65 | |
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10-29-2015, 07:16 PM | #66 | |
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