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10-05-2012, 04:28 PM | #155 |
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This is the dumbest argument I have ever seen on these boards. They haven't even released any figures for the car or what it looks like and people have already decided to buy a fucking Nissan!? LOL
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10-05-2012, 04:32 PM | #156 | |
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it's not just the abrupt increase in power, but morover, it is the "jerk" as it is known in automotive slang(change in the rate of acceleration) or, if you will, the increase in the rate at which hp is increasing. (change hp/t)/t |
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10-05-2012, 04:58 PM | #157 | |
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The 911 has rear weight bias AND high polar moment. It's a wonder of engineering that Porsche is able to make it handle so well . |
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10-05-2012, 04:59 PM | #158 | |
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It's not just turbo size that has to increase, either, the intake manifold would also need to grow larger to support the increased airflow which would also negatively impact spool time. |
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10-05-2012, 05:10 PM | #159 |
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Sounds good to me, can't wait for this car to come out
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10-05-2012, 05:11 PM | #160 | |
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Looking at "static" published numbers, peak horsepower is much more telling of a car's ultimate performance than peak torque. I've had interesting phylosophical debates with Swamp , but he is bang on in terms of the importance of power over performance. |
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10-05-2012, 05:17 PM | #161 | |
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You might be interested in the big related discussion in this thread about the cost and weight benefits and barriers to manufacturing. Doesn't get real interesting for a couple of pages.
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10-05-2012, 05:20 PM | #162 | |
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10-05-2012, 05:28 PM | #163 |
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Polar moment and weight distribution are different measures but are closely related. Low polar moment is achieved easily in a mid engine. Mid engine also contributes to equal weight front and rear. A large polar moment comes from a large amount (%) of weight (again an engine is a key contributor) far away from the center of mass. Polar moment however also depends on the total weight itself. A scale model version that is exact will have a correspondingly scaled polar moment, however, its weight distribution will remain unchanged.
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10-05-2012, 05:32 PM | #164 | |
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10-05-2012, 06:30 PM | #165 | |
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So in order to own a 1M the M3 has to be in a very high rpm point while the 1M should be either very low down or too high up. Only a moron would drive the 1M like that. And we are not even talking about in-gear acceleration which is imo more important than any other performance category unless you reside around Autobahn. There, we can't even make a comparison, whole different level. I would say it is the opposite of what you say; the 1M has to be in a wrong gear, a very wrong one to stay behind a M3 (which in turn has to stay over 6500, even 7000 rpm all the time in order to have some advantage), I mean anywhere but on a track with long straights and German highways. And before you flame me, I love the M3, E46 more than E92 yes but E92 too. And the engine is wonderful as long as you know what it is and what it is not. The new M3 will not be following solely the high revving NA tradition of past and actual M3s, it will also further what some new cars like the 1M brought on the sports car scene and that is not a bad thing...as long as they do it right, if they keep the sports car feel, for this I would be more suspicious about the size and luxury of next M3 than its turbo engine. I can even speculate that the limited edition short lived and controversial 1M story is all about giving us a pre-production test case for the following M cars. An experiment if I could call it like that. If next M3 will be a better 1M in essence it will be a very good car indeed. Last edited by ozinaldo; 10-05-2012 at 06:42 PM.. |
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10-05-2012, 06:31 PM | #166 | |
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As in the N20, why even venture over 5500 if it feels so bad |
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10-05-2012, 06:50 PM | #167 | |
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Going to the fastestlaps.com website (where on several short tracks) and looking at a few tests in the US (in particular the Streets of Willow put on by MT), M3 on average was faster than 1M, but not by much. At the M School, while several instructors loved the 1M and preferred it in terms of fun-to-drive factor, on average they said the M3s were faster around their short track (1M more nimble in turns, but any part that required power, M3 has a better suited engine for the track and is easier to control throttle for most drivers). Also having seen nearly every instrumented test in US and Europe, 0-60, 0-100 (M and kph), 1/8 mile and 1/4 mile times on average favor the M3 (both MT and DCT) vs the 1M (think there's 1-2 tests total that has the 1M faster to 60). All of this taken together (and the track info still suffers from a small sample size on the short tracks) actually led me to the opposite conclusion a while back - the M3 if driven properly (applies to MT vs MT) is the faster car and not just over 100mph.
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10-05-2012, 06:58 PM | #168 | |
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If the engine was truly rated at its advertised number it DOES NOT make more torque than M3. In reality 1m is 380hp stock. Calculate the total area under the torque curve. Despite having higher peak than M3, it is not as flat and overal torque is higher on M3. 335i people tend to repeat themselves how there is 300ft.lb from 1400-5000. Well, my question how much is there from 5000-8400rpm? Oh, wait N54 doesn't go that far. RPM range is the same, one is just down low and one is up high. On N54 Torque falls on it's nose from 5-7k and turbo is blowing hot air. I drive one everyday...and even though I am critical of my car it certainly makes a pleasant and economica daily driver. M3 is overkill for daily driver and 6mpg differene on the highway is A LOT. Last edited by malter2.0; 10-05-2012 at 07:18 PM.. |
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10-05-2012, 07:00 PM | #169 | |
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People who like the intake growl of a NA with individual throttle bodies,high revving V8,instant and quick throttle response dont want your 135i reworked engine. I bet you the majority of the new engine proponent never owned a high revvin NA V8,they think their 135i engine is the nec plus ultra. |
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10-05-2012, 07:10 PM | #170 | |
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And fastest.laps or M driving school! Please, we both can do better than that. M3 lovers (not you, don't get me wrong, merely the M3 fundamentalists) need to drop their superiority reflexes as soon as possible if they want to continue buying M cars because BMW wants the next M3 a la 1M. There is no other way of putting it and this is the bottomline for everyone who will be in the market. You are free to not like it as much as you want but it is already happening.
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10-05-2012, 07:19 PM | #171 | |
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Comparable testing (say Motortrend) shows the cars very close to 60 and after that the M3 will win any contest. To 100 the M3 bests the 1M by about 0.7 seconds. That's big. That appears to be entirely inconsistent with your claims. By the way yes I have driven and driven hard the 1M, but no I don't own one. Not that one has to drive or own a car to understand its performance... Official dynos from BMW show the 1M making the same power up to about 2000 rpm then the M3 leads all the way from there out. Although BMW has been known to under rate... Generally speaking I trust dynos about as far as I can throw one. I trust RRI.se for "real" dyno testing... and unfortunately they have not tested the 1M. Could this be a case of the overboost making the differences vs. official dynos? If by "real world" you mean accelerating the cars in improper gears then yes the 1M will have an advantage. I think you misunderstood that about my last post. "Daily driving" to some inherently means lugging the engine in the wrong gear for actually getting the best performance. With DCT especially there is no need to do so (heck there is not a really a reason to do this with a 6MT either). Get the revs way up in the M3, the power goes way up and it out accelerates the 1M due to its better power to weight ratio, simple. Regardless of which gear the 1M uses, if both cars use the best gear for each one the M3 will win. If both cars use the wrong gear (or the M3 uses the wrong gear and the 1M uses the right gear) at low rpm and/or stay in that single gear, yes the 1M can win such a contest. It does so because it can make more power at low rpms than the M3!
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10-05-2012, 07:29 PM | #172 | |||
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10-05-2012, 07:41 PM | #173 | |
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Not many people seem to understand that the competition is catching up on BMW because of the chassis, weight, size and feel not because they all have better engines now. One point I need to say that it is not only BMW every brand is going with the FI engines. Don't be surprised if Formula 1 allows the turbos again one day and this time with different rules, why not? People associate NA and high rev engines with being sporty and racecar like but this is just a point in history, it can and will change. Your arguements are well educated but you keep on taking the official numbers about the two cars which cloud your results. The delta between 1M and M3 in hp is much smaller than it looks on factory provided papers and the torque delta is even bigger, combine this with less weight you have extremely close performing cars, not one dominating the other. But this is the least of my points anyway. And a small note; 1M has a N54T engine not an N55. Last edited by ozinaldo; 10-05-2012 at 07:51 PM.. |
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10-05-2012, 08:00 PM | #174 | |||
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Again, the cars perform closely because they have very close power to weight ratio, period. BMW simply can not distract me from the importance of power with huge torque numbers. Anyone who claims to care about pure performance should also not be distracted. Thanks, I think I have made this mistake before.
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10-05-2012, 08:01 PM | #175 | |
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"Polar moment is not related to axle weight distribution. Polar momemt depends on how far away the weight is distributed from the center of gravity." |
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10-05-2012, 09:21 PM | #176 |
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Fastest laps or what BMW instructors say (which btw, are credible and don't do the marketing schtick given none of them own BMWs, trust me), while a very small sample size, is information that is corroborative. Incremental small sample size information when is corroborate directionally to an appropriate larger sample size (instrumented tests), will likely yield the right conclusion. Interestingly, in the head-to-head tests performed by a few guys in the US (best isolates ambient conditions), M3 wins to 60, 1/8 and quarter. Also any dyno operator will tell you these engines/ECUs are so tough to dyno as the ECUs adapt to ambient conditions, its probably less accurate than doing 10 1/4 mile runs with two cars and averaging the result to really see which car is faster. Some of the dyno racers/aftermarket guys are claiming that the 2010+ M3s because of new software and minor engine improvements and faster later model times, are actually producing more like 430 hp (btw, I don't believe this personally, there are a lot of dyno games going on) Also, the M3's weight/power ratio is superior, so at least in theory, it should be the faster car..(even assuming 370 hp for the 1M) again corroborative. I just haven't found much dissenting information in a large enough sample size that would lead me to your conclusion (except for the threads full of 'war stories').
Don't get me wrong, the 1M is a great car (drove one at the M school) and MT vs MT, I think it's entirely plausible, for the average driver in most conditions, the 1M will be faster as getting the gearing exactly right for the M3 is tough for the average driver..you have to work that engine optimally. Would be interesting to do the torque multiplication math through the gears/diff/wheels to really see which car is producing more torque to the wheels. |
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