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      09-23-2013, 03:09 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
judging a car by HP is like judging a woman by the cup size on her bra...
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      09-23-2013, 03:10 PM   #134
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Just a few thought on previous posts.

The iconic m3 still lives on in the best form (sedan)!!!

ZF as good as MDCT?

36C on a girl with 23 waist is always greater than 36D on a girl with 34 waist!
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      09-23-2013, 03:13 PM   #135
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True, the M3 GTS has 444 bhp and curb weight 3,370 lbs for 7.6lbs/hp. That did the ring in 7:48, so will be tough for new gen M3/M4 to surpass this unless gets far below 3,550 lbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Why is everyone so focused on the HP number?

It's all about power/weight ratio. I really hope BMW is finding it's way back to a light and nimble M3 that has a significant gain in power to weight, where the majority of that comes from lighter weight. Why? Because lighter weight will do wonders for handling and braking.

More power is only good for acceleration, with lower weight and just a bit more power you still gain acceleration, but make massive gains in handling and braking performance.
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      09-23-2013, 03:20 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
True, the M3 GTS has 444 bhp and curb weight 3,370 lbs for 7.6lbs/hp. That did the ring in 7:48, so will be tough for new gen M3/M4 to surpass this unless gets far below 3,550 lbs.
thats' not apples to apples though....can't wait for the M3 CRT and M4 GTS. holy crap those are going to be beast mode cars.
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      09-23-2013, 03:25 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikecom32 View Post
Lack of actual car knowledge really shows when we start talking numbers. Looking at half of these responses, you'd think horsepower is the be-all and end-all of performance figures.

We're still gaining 11 hp and 70 lb-ft of torque. Consider the weight reduction, severe underrating on BMW turbo engines, and ease of power gains with a turbo engine.
That it does, and it's sad. I really think the numbers come down to bragging rights for some people.
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      09-23-2013, 03:29 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Why? We've said all along that it would feature approximately same HP, but around 100 lb-ft more torque (in range of 395 lb-ft) than the current M3.
Yes Jason, i read about that but i wondered was only a guess..

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Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
You know that means 460hp and 400tq though right?
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      09-23-2013, 03:35 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedez
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Why? We've said all along that it would feature approximately same HP, but around 100 lb-ft more torque (in range of 395 lb-ft) than the current M3.
Yes Jason, i read about that but i wondered was only a guess..

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
You know that means 460hp and 400tq though right?
Mod chip??
Stock.

Some say the m5/6 are actually 600hp. Holy!
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      09-23-2013, 03:41 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdizzle View Post
I think they may be overselling the tune if anyone is claiming 400hp with 'just' a tune. Tunes alone can add 30-50hp at the wheels putting you somewhere in the 350hp area perhaps if we actually knew what the drive train loss is. I don't think anyone is gaining 100hp on a 335 with only a tune on normal gas, at least not one that won't run the risk of blowing your engine.

Common is about 300-310whp with a 'safe' tune. Now add in DP, E85, Meth, etc which allows you to safely turn up the boost and then you start to see the big numbers and make a M3 see tail lights, at least in a straight line.

You might want to familiarize yourself with 335's and current tunes, and then apply that to what we can only assume about the M3/M4... which may change as details are revealed.

My 2008 335i dyno'd 278whp stock and 336whp on 91 octane JB4 ($479 tune). That's 58whp on a tune, roughly equating to 65hp, give or take.... considering drive train loss, 336whp is certainly in the range of ~375hp on just a tune.

The difference from stock to tuned is what matters, so maybe you came across someone making 310whp on a tune, but their original hp figures would've been around 240-250whp. Go to the 335 forums and find those figures... I don't recall seeing anyone making that little of an increase, ever (30-40whp on a JB4 or Cobb, for instance).

Since we are literally talking a nearly 400hp car on just a tune (335i), I want to encourage the M3/M4 world. This is going to be a 500+hp car on a tune with a bolt on or two. Figure catless downpipes, if four cats exist, will add 25-30whp and a FMIC and intake will add another 25-30whp. A tune on top of that? Good grief.

The only mention worth making is that the 335 had terribly restrictive attributes, while the M3/M4 might be pushing it a bit more and already have a fairly efficient intake, fmic, tune, etc.

Looking forward to a curb weight, and believe it or not, MPG figures. Could never justify the E90 DCT based on terrible fuel economy. With the turbo 6 we might see high 20's on the highway.
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      09-23-2013, 03:45 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aweso///Me View Post
what is the sense about underrating engine numbers? Why does BMW quote a 0-100 in 4,4sec for the M5, when many magazines/ journalists and you forum guys clock the M5 in under 4,0sec's.
Maybe a silly question.. but what is the benefit of underrating engine numbers and performance figures?
Basically, the benefit for any manufacturer is to cover their ass. If they rated their cars at the exact HP and performance numbers, there is bound to be some owners and reviewers/testers who may not be able to achieve those numbers on a dyno or at the track. There could be many variables why exact numbers may not be reached during a given test, so manufacturers will give themselves a safety cushion with underrated numbers.
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      09-23-2013, 03:47 PM   #142
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Right, was more in reference cuffing the performance bound on the regular M3/4 on similar weight car, with better weight/power ratio (at least appears to be case unless weight gets down more than 3350 lbs). No doubt a PP or CSL type will render further improvements on the base M3/4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
thats' not apples to apples though....can't wait for the M3 CRT and M4 GTS. holy crap those are going to be beast mode cars.
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      09-23-2013, 03:50 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
Stock.

Some say the m5/6 are actually 600hp. Holy!
Ah, better for the Italians, we have taxes on the number of horses... 425 is

approximately 4900 usd/years...
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      09-23-2013, 03:56 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
meh don't believe the hype. the ZF tiptronic/steptronic is a good gearbox....but it's nowhere near the level of performance as a proper dual clutch automatic gearbox. It's still clunky and non-satisfying to use. I have driven several cars equipped with the ZF and was bored with all of them. The dual clutch actually FEELS like there are two clutches working in symphony between them....actively seeking gears. The ZF just feels like a really good automatic.

i'd personally never buy a ZF slushbox....but would DEFINITELY buy a car with a dual clutch.

as for the rest of others' opinions about HP---judging a car by HP is like judging a woman by the cup size on her bra and NOTHING else-----it tells an important, but out-of-context summary of the subject in question. Just tuning a 435i does NOT make it an M3. The M3 is more than just technical stats; it is a composite of a factory built performance package engineered as such from the beginning. I get tired of people comparing 'tuned' cars to out-of-the-box packages. I *LOVE* my brand new 135is, but i'm not going to pretend that tuning it and adding a bunch of parts is going to make it a 1M; it will NOT (although this is a poor example....as BMW engineers DID just tune it and add a bunch of parts to make the 1M...LOL).
You do know that the 4 series price lists in Europe show DCT options an ALL engines now, even 2 litre Diesels? About a $400 option over ZF8HP.
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      09-23-2013, 03:58 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
You do know that the 4 series price lists in Europe show DCT options an ALL engines now, even 2 litre Diesels? About a $400 option over ZF8HP.
wow that's great! a HUGE upgrade for only $400, IMO.
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      09-23-2013, 04:02 PM   #146
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I really don't get all this hoopla about HP? It's not the be all and end all of any M car, it has always been about the entire product.

I say bring it, 425hp or 455hp or whatever... it'll be a great M car.
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      09-23-2013, 04:04 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
As I'm not into drag racing and also believe that the M cars where not designed with drag racing in mind, 0-100(km/h) and 1/4mile times isn't that important to me. Neither is if it has 422, 425, 445 or 460hp... (in some sense it do, but not besides for bragging rights).

To me, the important information will be;

Is it fun to drive, is it faster on a track (the 'Ring), does it make me smile to drive it on a twisty road, does it sound good and will it leave the MB's and Audi's behind me on the twisties.

If it ticks those boxes, it doesn't matter (to me) whether some fat MB might out accelerate it in a straight line. Let them enjoy going fast straight ahead while we enjoy the M3/M4 when the roads have corners.

If it does the above, then I don't care if it only had 300hp... Low weight and an agile engine is what I hope we will get
+1

There are some that seem to get caught up on the hp number. Clearly the direction in more recent years has taken a different focus than just an outright hp number. For those that are feel free to get the Audi or merc if that's what they think is going to make them happy
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      09-23-2013, 04:05 PM   #148
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425 is a bit disappointing. Will wait to see how it drives. Getting a feeling it will be a good car but not a great one. Need to get more weight out of the car.
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      09-23-2013, 04:05 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E92_SID View Post
In the end, I have enough confidence in BMW M to say that I would/will probably buy the thing sight-unseen. BMW M has knows what the industry and its competitors are doing. The good thing about BMW is they have been the trend setters and benchmark of the industry rather than chasing other brands. There has not been a bad M3 yet and I dont anticipate then they would allow the launch of the M4 to deviate from this perfect record.
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      09-23-2013, 04:07 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079
Just a few thought on previous posts.

The iconic m3 still lives on in the best form (sedan)!!!

ZF as good as MDCT?

36C on a girl with 23 waist is always greater than 36D on a girl with 34 waist!
Not if you're a chubby chaser I kid!
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      09-23-2013, 04:08 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
You do know that the 4 series price lists in Europe show DCT options an ALL engines now, even 2 litre Diesels? About a $400 option over ZF8HP.
there you go with nonsense again. Are you talking about the SPORT AUTO?! that is not DCT.
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      09-23-2013, 04:11 PM   #152
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if bmw underrates hp, then whats the current hp and tq of the e9x m3?
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      09-23-2013, 04:16 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaz26 View Post
425 is a bit disappointing. Will wait to see how it drives. Getting a feeling it will be a good car but not a great one. Need to get more weight out of the car.
Get more weight out of the car than what?

We haven't received info on weight yet...

What are your feelings based on with regards to it not being a great car? Internet gossip?

Can't believe how many that are disappointed with the car even before we have some solid info on power to weight and lap times etc.
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      09-23-2013, 04:17 PM   #154
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Quite tempting. I know the M4 will be a great performer and all-around great car. I expect the weight to be about 3450lbs.

However, I most likely won't be able to put in my order by the end of the year (corporate lease to expense), so I'm probably going with a C7 Vette. It's 5sec a lap faster around Willow Springs than my E9x M3. That's pretty incredible for something that is about $10k less MSRP.
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