Track Day Tire Test

[Throttleblip]

Though this was an interesting review especially considering the aquaplaning test at the end.

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article...-Tyre-Test.htm

[MaynardZed]

Interesting results. Not sure how relevant here since the test vehicle was a Ford Focus. I’ve seen guys chunk the outer edge of the cup2 tires on F8X cars, but for some reason they work great on my Porsche 991.1 and I’ve been really impressed with them.

[Throttleblip]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

Interesting results. Not sure how relevant here since the test vehicle was a Ford Focus. I’ve seen guys chunk the outer edge of the cup2 tires on F8X cars, but for some reason they work great on my Porsche 991.1 and I’ve been really impressed with them.

I have them on my M4CS and absolutely impressed by the grip in the dry.

[FormulaMMM]

Eh. Not sure how accurately the results of the Auto Bild test are communicated in the article, but regarding the Trofeo R:

Don't confuse maximum wet/damp road surface traction with legitimate wet weather performance.

Trofeo R, and other super sticky semi-slicks and slicks can deliver impressive grip on a simply wet/damp surface (absent standing water) up to a very sharp limit.

In real world wet weather conditions though, you'd give your left one for a swap to just about any specification Cup 2.

Everything Pirelli says about this tire in the wet is 100% true... https://www.pirelli.com/tires/en-us/...pzero-trofeo-r

[wsccsw13]

I run a square setup of MSC2s on the track and they are fantastic! I've had no issues with wear/sidewall.

[Throttleblip]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Eh. Not sure how accurately the results of the Auto Bild test are communicated in the article, but regarding the Trofeo R:

Don't confuse maximum wet/damp road surface traction with legitimate wet weather performance.

Trofeo R, and other super sticky semi-slicks and slicks can deliver impressive grip on a simply wet/damp surface (absent standing water) up to a very sharp limit.

In real world wet weather conditions though, you'd give your left one for a swap to just about any specification Cup 2.

Everything Pirelli says about this tire in the wet is 100% true... https://www.pirelli.com/tires/en-us/...pzero-trofeo-r

I agree with you... it was nice, for me at least, to know the limits of aquaplaning for my Cup2s... for me that is my biggest concern. Also to learn that on a damp road and track it still has some level of grip.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Throttleblip

I agree with you... it was nice, for me at least, to know the limits of aquaplaning for my Cup2s... for me that is my biggest concern. Also to learn that on a damp road and track it still has some level of grip.

Sticky semi-slicks/slicks still "want" to maintain their inherent high grip compound characteristic on a damp surface. The barrier to that is standing water. That's where the problem comes in due to the inability to evacuate water.

F1 is a great reference point. "Dry enough for slicks" is the absence of standing water, not a dry track. In damp conditions and in the absence of standing water, slicks are substantially faster than inters and wets.

[Throttleblip]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Sticky semi-slicks/slicks still "want" to maintain their inherent high grip compound characteristic on a damp surface. The barrier to that is standing water. That's where the problem comes in due to the inability to evacuate water.

F1 is a great reference point. "Dry enough for slicks" is the absence of standing water, not a dry track. In damp conditions and in the absence of standing water, slicks are substantially faster than inters and wets.

Good to know! Good stuff!

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Throttleblip

Good to know! Good stuff!

Informed by trial and error, both intentional and unintentional.

Way too much time on the highway & on track in the rain with the Trofeo R = unintentional.

[Throttleblip]

Some additional info provided by Michelin about the Cup 2, track pressures.

[CanAutM3]

I find the ratings in this test to be a little odd. A good track day tire will not be good in the wet, so why put so much weight on the wet result for the overall rating. The vast majority of track rats will have two sets of tires, one for dry and one for wet; most often with the wet track tire also serving the DD duty. Of the tires listed here, IMO, the Trofeo-R is clearly by far the best track day tire from a performance point of view. However, this test is not comprehensive due to many other very good offerings being omitted.

I personally do not like the PSC2 that much for track use. I find it it very finicky and sensitive to pressures and temperatures, it heat cycles out very fast and the tread pattern usually results in slanted wear (due to tread block deformation). I tracked only one set and do not intend to use the PSC2 on track again.

[Throttleblip]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I find the ratings in this test to be a little odd. A good track day tire will not be good in the wet, so why put so much weight on the wet result for the overall rating. The vast majority of track rats will have two sets of tires, one for dry and one for wet; most often with the wet track tire also serving the DD duty. Of the tires listed here, IMO, the Trofeo-R is clearly by far the best track day tire from a performance point of view. However, this test is not comprehensive due to many other very good offerings being omitted.

I personally do not like the PSC2 that much for track use. I find it it very finicky and sensitive to pressures and temperatures, it heat cycles out very fast and the tread pattern usually results in slanted wear (due to tread block deformation). I tracked only one set and do not intend to use the PSC2 on track again.

I really like the cup2 for fast road driving... haven't tried them at the track yet (still breaking in the car).

I was though interested in the wet performance because I had heard they were terrible and least their ok.

I agree that I would use the Trofeos for pure track use.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Throttleblip

I really like the cup2 for fast road driving... haven't tried them at the track yet (still breaking in the car).

I was though interested in the wet performance because I had heard they were terrible and least their ok.

I agree that I would use the Trofeos for pure track use.

For us, fall has already hit and I've been driving the PSC2 in 5~15degC relatively wet weather for the last 2 weeks. The PSC2 are perfectly drivable in those condition as a daily driver. They do however have significantly less grip than the PSS in those conditions. Three quarter throttle in 5th gear at 120km/h sent the rear sideways. But with normal driving, there's no issue.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

For us, fall has already hit and I've been driving the PSC2 in 5~15degC relatively wet weather for the last 2 weeks. The PSC2 are perfectly drivable in those condition as a daily driver. They do however have significantly less grip than the PSS in those conditions. Three quarter throttle in 5th gear at 120km/h sent the rear sideways. But with normal driving, there's no issue.

I'm not sure if you've seen this video, but the chap does a good job of describing the pros and cons of using the Cup 2 as DD tires.

[Throttleblip]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I'm not sure if you've seen this video, but the chap does a good job of describing the pros and cons of using the Cup 2 as DD tires.

Great video thanks:

[FormulaMMM]

Keep in mind that Cup 2's come in a variety of specs. And there's more meaningful spec variability with this tire than any other that I'm aware of.

Current ZR1 spec, for example. Bears little resemblance to the star spec, or Merc spec, clearly more of a dedicated dry track tire.



Latest Cup 2 R (Porsche spec) is rumored to have something extra on the compound side of the equation. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...+Sport+Cup+2+R

Run flat Z06 spec:



I'd definitely prefer a more aggressive spec -- more Trofeo R, less Pilot Sport 4 S -- for my GTS. Star spec is plenty quick, but lacks in durability, especially the outside shoulder. https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=217

[FormulaMMM]

Irony is that the GTS & CS are notably faster than the previous gen track editions -- CSL & E92 GTS -- but BMW spec'd a cup tire that is apparently less aggressive, more "streetable."

Here's the Pilot Sport Cup + that was OE on the E46 CSL.



This was also an OE replacement tire on the E92. Car & Driver swapped out the PS2 and ran it at my local track back in '09. Here was the wear after they beat the hell out of it (while clearly mismanaging the pressures). Stood up to the abuse similar to something like an NT01 or RE-71 R.

https://hips.hearstapps.com/amv-prod...p&resize=800:*

Current star spec Cup 2 is very daily-drivable though, reasonably quiet (even absent sound deadening), not terrifying in the wet. No question it's a FAR better all-around tire than the Trofeo R, but can't quite match pace and (definitely not) the durability on a dry track.

[Throttleblip]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Irony is that the GTS & CS are notably faster than the previous gen track editions -- CSL & E92 GTS -- but BMW spec'd a cup tire that is apparently less aggressive, more "streetable."

Here's the Pilot Sport Cup + that was OE on the E46 CSL.



This was also an OE replacement tire on the E92. Car & Driver swapped out the PS2 and ran it at my local track back in '09. Here was the wear after they beat the hell out of it (while clearly mismanaging the hell out of the pressures). Stood up to the abuse similar to something like an NT01 or RE-71 R.

https://hips.hearstapps.com/amv-prod...8;resize=800:*

Current star spec Cup 2 is very daily-drivable though, reasonably quiet (even absent sound deadening), not terrifying in the wet. No question it's a FAR better all-around tire than the Trofeo R, but can't quite match pace and (definitely not) the durability on a dry track.

For me the Cup2s are the prefect compromise between street and track, because I generally use my M4CS for fast road driving and the grip is just fenomenal. So much so, that if I were to buy another sports car (like the 911T ) I would would opt for the too when I replaced the stock tires.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Throttleblip

For me the Cup2s are the prefect compromise between street and track, because I generally use my M4CS for fast road driving and the grip is just fenomenal. So much so, that if I were to buy another sports car (like the 911T ) I would would opt for the too when I replaced the stock tires.

Yep this was probably BMW's expectation. They're pretty perfect for the application you describe.

Thing is though... Pilot Sport 4 S is too. More than capable of managing 500+ horsepower, as crazy as you'd like to get as far as handling on the street, with even better wear, superior comfort attributes.

A cup tire should withstand more abuse on track, just my 2c.

[Throttleblip]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Yep this was probably BMW's expectation. They're pretty perfect for the application you describe.

Thing is though... Pilot Sport 4 S is too. More than capable of managing 500+ horsepower, as crazy as you'd like to get as far as handling on the street, with even better wear, superior comfort attributes.

A cup tire should withstand more abuse on track, just my 2c.

The 4S was what I was going to put on my ZCP before I sold it. With my M4CS I prefer the cups because the car was tuned with this tires, so they make more sense to me, but the 4S seem to be almost as good in terms of grip.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Throttleblip

The 4S was what I was going to put on my ZCP before I sold it. With my M4CS I prefer the cups because the car was tuned with this tires, so they make more sense to me, but the 4S seem to be almost as good in terms of grip.

I'll see how it goes with the PSC2. But for now, I think I might switch to the PS4S when the PSC2 are worn. I already have a set of dedicated dry track wheels and tires (Apex+NT01), what I need is a solid dual use wet track and DD tire.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Irony is that the GTS & CS are notably faster than the previous gen track editions -- CSL & E92 GTS -- but BMW spec'd a cup tire that is apparently less aggressive, more "streetable."

Here's the Pilot Sport Cup + that was OE on the E46 CSL.



This was also an OE replacement tire on the E92. Car & Driver swapped out the PS2 and ran it at my local track back in '09. Here was the wear after they beat the hell out of it (while clearly mismanaging the pressures). Stood up to the abuse similar to something like an NT01 or RE-71 R.

https://hips.hearstapps.com/amv-prod...p&resize=800:*

Current star spec Cup 2 is very daily-drivable though, reasonably quiet (even absent sound deadening), not terrifying in the wet. No question it's a FAR better all-around tire than the Trofeo R, but can't quite match pace and (definitely not) the durability on a dry track.

If I am not mistaken, the Pilot Cup+ tire offered on the E92 was an in-between tire with better wet capabilities, not the all out "pure" Cup tire offered on the CSL.

You are right though, that the original Michelin Cup was a more outright track tire. With the Cup 2, Michelin set out to offer a compromise with a track tire that can also be daily driven.