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View Poll Results: S65 option or S55 standart ? | |||
YES ... I would choose the S65 if an option at this price would be availiable | 93 | 45.81% | |
NO ... I would choose the standart S55 engine | 110 | 54.19% | |
Voters: 203. You may not vote on this poll |
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01-16-2014, 10:36 AM | #507 | |||
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Other than that, I did not have a problem with the 1M engine, as you stated, this was basically a "midnight special on a budget". And it worked more that fine. Quote:
What turbos did to ///M, more than any other speed shops (AMG, V, RS, et al), was to get the regular Series engines too close to the ///M engines, instead of further separating them, IMO. So sharing engines with the least amount of tuning is a business decision and it is ok cost-wise. But at this level, image is everything. I was expecting this time not a repeat of 2007 with the E46 M3 and the 335i, when the performance bump of the 335i arguably met or even exceeded that of the E46 M3, stock vs stock. With the inevitable 340i coming and the M Performance tuning the M3/M4 again will be too close to a 3-Series. A slight bump of displacement -to a 3.2l I6 and a minimum of 460hp- would have solved that in this M3/M4 both in image and in output, IMO. Quote:
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01-16-2014, 11:11 AM | #508 |
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I really really reallllyyyy have to roll my eyes at some of this stuff. Let's get some history straight:
1. The S14, the engine that made the m3 come to life in the first place, was based off the m10/m88 and was based off a 6-cylinder with 2 cylinders chopped off. It was built from concept to prototype in TWO WEEKS and the first model was literally just a plate welded onto the gaping hole in the block of 2 cylinders removed. That engine is at the heart of the m3 series and is still famed today. 2. The s52 in the e36 m3 was heavily based on the m52 with basically some special parts-bin stuff and some tuning. It's an incredibly reliable, daily driven engine coming on 20 years worldwide. It was also developed quickly based upon an existing platform. 3. The S54 was an M50 evolved for M. More specialized tuning, more unique parts, special VANOS systems - but at heart was an iron block great engine based off an existing engine. The e46 was famous and an amazing new M vehicle 4. The s65 was the first m3 engine that was based off another M engine, which was based off a unique design - the S85. Nevertheless, at heart, the S65 was yet another existing BMW engine modified for use in an M application. This was a special engine, no doubt, but the M3's fame and glory was built on the backs of taking existing engines and improving upon them. In many ways, the S55 is a cross between the s54 and the s65 - it is a unique block (closed deck, unique valvetronic system, etc.) based upon an existing platform. It is neither a tweaked s54 nor a whole new platform like the s65. |
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01-16-2014, 11:55 AM | #510 | |||||
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You are going to see all of the performance cars (with > 400hp, so ignoring the smaller I4 powered models for a second) from these brands move to turbocharged engines with 3L to 4L displacement, and probably not see any of them tweaking displacements for engines shared with the non-performance arm. Only AMG has released a new, bespoke motor, and there will probably be a non-AMG version for the future *500/*550 products (it is not likely they'll continue with 4.7L when the new 4.0L makes more power). Quote:
I believe you will see a 460hp 3.0L S55 in a few years. Whether that's for a ZCP or a more special model, I don't know yet. But I don't think they'll have a problem building one for production. The current one may be closer than that in actuality than to 425hp for that matter (we'll know soon). Quote:
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01-16-2014, 12:02 PM | #511 | ||
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I didn't see anyone contradict these historic facts nor the others you've cited. So if the point was to correct misinformation, I guess I didn't see any to begin with. If the point is to merely lend perspective, sure, it's a nice summary of where we've been and where we are. Quote:
My take away from your post is that while times have changed, M Division is still spending a great deal of money and care on developing engines just like they did from inception. If that wasn't the point, I apologize I missed it. |
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01-16-2014, 12:12 PM | #512 |
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01-16-2014, 12:17 PM | #513 |
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Absolutely. However the S55 has exactly the same dimensions ( volume, bore x stroke ) as the N55 and the N54, this is a first for an M-engine. It is also not to be built in the special engine facility but alongside the series cars. I see what you are saying that boost increase displacement and therefore the effective volume is larger. However the perception of the cost and specialness of boost increase is very different from actual cylinder volume increase. To what degree the S55 technically is a tuned standard engine vs. it's predecessors is up for discussion but I think the perception will be that it is closer than ever since the most commonly listed specs. for an engine other than power is induction type,displacement, bore x stroke and compression.
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01-16-2014, 12:18 PM | #514 |
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I believe one of the reasons for it being so cheap is the engine is just a tuned up 435i engine which keeps costs down rather than an entirely different engine like the previous M3
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01-16-2014, 12:42 PM | #515 |
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And begin debating this for the next 10 pages.
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01-16-2014, 12:48 PM | #516 |
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If anyone could have an M3 with a tuned N54 engine and larger turbos would do it. Well I know I would and I am since I am buying the new M3. Looks like all the old e92m fan boys will be buying the zo6 (I am as well next year). How many m3s got their asses handed to them by a moded n54 and then had to bring up how trackable their cars were lol. Well now not only your old m3 is going to get its ass kicked by the new m3 on the streets, it will also on the track. But yeah keep taking about the v8 and the amazing sound as I am passing you by with a car that has an engine built on the series line and it's cheap.
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01-16-2014, 12:50 PM | #517 | |
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01-16-2014, 12:59 PM | #518 | |||
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01-16-2014, 01:00 PM | #519 | |
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01-16-2014, 01:04 PM | #520 | |
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But overall, most of the M3's success, history, and most loved models were based upon tweaked series engines. My second point was that the S55 is an amalgamation of a tweaked series engine and a specialty M engine. It has a different block, not just different components, though it appears to be heavily based upon the n54. In other words, the S55 thus far is following in the footsteps of many great M engines that have come before.... |
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01-16-2014, 01:06 PM | #521 |
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True, the same can said about the power numbers of a tuned N54 vs the S55. So, I think now more than ever it will be the character of the M engine that need to differentiate it from the standard engine. I think they achieved a good distance between them in terms of the 550 and the M5. The response and rev. happiness is significantly better in the M5. I expect the S55 to be quite a bit better than the M5 and put more distance between itself and especially tuned N54s than the M5 vs 550 which it will inevitably be heavily compared to.
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01-16-2014, 01:07 PM | #522 |
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Tired of all the bashing and the hate for a car that no one on here has yet driven.
Last edited by Real Deal; 01-16-2014 at 01:18 PM.. |
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01-16-2014, 01:14 PM | #523 | |
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Sorry I should have said M3.
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( Sorry if we got a bit OT and back to the never ending topic of the old engines vs. the new but it does have some relation to the pricing topic. ) Last edited by solstice; 01-16-2014 at 01:21 PM.. |
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01-16-2014, 01:14 PM | #524 |
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01-16-2014, 01:27 PM | #526 | |
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01-16-2014, 01:37 PM | #527 | |
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Last edited by solstice; 01-16-2014 at 01:42 PM.. |
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01-16-2014, 01:45 PM | #528 | |
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From a cost/benefit scenario, the new m3 offers still notably greater acceleration (as far as we know thus far), more efficiency, less emissions, and a boatload more torque. The most common complaints about the S65 were terrible fuel economy and poor low-end torque. I give BMW credit. Looks like smart decision making to me. |
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