[VIDEO] M4 spins out of control at Homestead Speedway, lessons learned

[bojote]

So, I'm driving great with traction control ON all day, my instructor claps and cheers and says I'm good, so decide to enable the MDM traction control (which is coded to the euro setting).. after all, I feel like Mario Andretti, what could be wrong.. right?

2 minutes after enabling MDM I spin my car, close call. After watching the video several times, I believe what happened is that the car violently snapped due to aggressive throttle input PLUS the fact the MDM euro option was enabled.

Lesson learned: If driving with MDM mode on, then have the EFFICIENT throttle option enabled for more linear throttle inputs. If you want to drive in Sport or Sport + mode, then full DSC is a must. Car is a 2016 BMW M4, Manual Transmission w/Dinan Stage 2 including Dinantronics + CAI and Exhaust.

No excuses, driver error any way you see it. I simply share my experience hoping others will avoid the same mistake! I do however believe that a contributing factor was the fact that just 3 days ago I had the Dinan Stage 2 installed, so car was pulling like a horse and I was just getting used to it.

Full 3 laps (no incidents)

Spin

[CanAutM3]

There is a series of events that occurred that caused you to go off track but Euro-MDM is not the culprit . That was a very slow spin.

As you say, too aggressive throttle coming out of the corner while pinching the steering wheel caused an oversteer situation. This was still completely manageable though. The complete lack of counter steer is what made the situation worse and caused the car to go off track on the inside.

Note that all of this is due to driver error. Period. Euro-MDM simply has a little more leeway than US-MDM, but one still needs to do the proper driver inputs to keep the car on track. Depending on your comfort level, I would definitely recommend you keep driving with at least MDM to eventually move to DSC off so you can learn proper throttle management and steering input. With DSC, the car is managing the throttle for you. Continuing to track with full DSC will just get you into nasty habits that are difficult to get rid of later on.

There is no need to go in "Efficient" mode. Sport and Sport+ are perfectly fine for the track (Sport+ is my preferred track engine setting), you just need to learn throttle modulation and coordination. Think of an imaginary string that links the steering wheel and throttle pedal. If you cannot open up the steering wheel, you cannot add more throttle. You might also want to consider some skidpad training to get those counter steer reflexes honed

Keep tracking

[JN1]

Haven't tracked my F80 yet but been there, done that with other cars. Had a nice sliding off-track excursion in my F30 at Buttonwillow, last time I was there coming in way too hot. Luckily it was flat and nothing to hit.

[cctm4me]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

There is a series of events that occurred that caused you to go off track but Euro-MDM is not the culprit . That was a very slow spin.

As you say, too aggressive throttle coming out of the corner while pinching the steering wheel caused an oversteer situation. This was still completely manageable though. The complete lack of counter steer is what made the situation worse and caused the car to go off track on the inside.

Note that all of this is due to driver error. Period. Euro-MDM simply has a little more leeway than US-MDM, but one still needs to do the proper driver inputs to keep the car on track. Depending on your comfort level, I would definitely recommend you keep driving with at least MDM to eventually move to DSC off so you can learn proper throttle management and steering input. With DSC, the car is managing the throttle for you. Continuing to track with full DSC will just get you into nasty habits that are difficult to get rid of later on.

There is no need to go in "Efficient" mode. Sport+ is perfectly fine for the track (Sport+ is my preferred track engine setting), you just need to learn throttle modulation and coordination. Think of an imaginary string that links the steering wheel and throttle pedal. If you cannot open up the steering wheel, you cannot add more throttle.

X2

[Gearhead999s]

An investment in schooling in skid control would be money well spent!That was a totally recoverable situation that could be corrected with some counter-steer and proper throttle control.Maybe this an intuitive reaction for us who have grown up in areas that have real winter!

[bojote]

I've been involved in several situations throughout my life im which I have recovered (mostly low speed) from a spin. I asked my instructor why was it that even though I did apply FULL counter steer the car could not be recovered, he said I applied so much throttle when exiting the turn that no amount of countersteer would have save me.

Still.. driver error, throttle input was way too aggressive for the power the car has. I'm planning to attend 2 day M Driving school April 7. I really want to get to know my car in a safe environment.

[RSXDC5]

Thx for sharing! Tips: roll into the throttle coming out of corners, if you start to lose the rear then countersteer.

Don't jab the throttle coming out of the corners

Tracking your car really comes down to knowing the limit of your tires and approaching/riding that limit with the throttle/brakes. It can be tough, especially in a fast car, but you will get it!

[YMB_M3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

There is a series of events that occurred that caused you to go off track but Euro-MDM is not the culprit . That was a very slow spin.

As you say, too aggressive throttle coming out of the corner while pinching the steering wheel caused an oversteer situation. This was still completely manageable though. The complete lack of counter steer is what made the situation worse and caused the car to go off track on the inside.

Note that all of this is due to driver error. Period. Euro-MDM simply has a little more leeway than US-MDM, but one still needs to do the proper driver inputs to keep the car on track. Depending on your comfort level, I would definitely recommend you keep driving with at least MDM to eventually move to DSC off so you can learn proper throttle management and steering input. With DSC, the car is managing the throttle for you. Continuing to track with full DSC will just get you into nasty habits that are difficult to get rid of later on.

There is no need to go in "Efficient" mode. Sport+ is perfectly fine for the track (Sport+ is my preferred track engine setting), you just need to learn throttle modulation and coordination. Think of an imaginary string that links the steering wheel and throttle pedal. If you cannot open up the steering wheel, you cannot add more throttle. You might also want to consider some skidpad training to get those counter steer reflexes honed

Keep tracking

When would you recommend somebody to switch from euro MDM to DSC off?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by kkashanchi

When would you recommend somebody to switch from euro MDM to DSC off?

The first point to consider is if one is willing to accept the added risk that comes with tracking with DSC off.

Assuming one accepts the risks, I would recommend going DSC off as soon as one is familiar enough with the track layout and proper racing line. After that, the sooner DSC comes off, the faster proper techniques will be learnt. What is fundamental is to adjust one's speed accordingly.

I have seen way too many incidents where decently fast drivers, that were relying on the aids to go fast, turned them off. The nasty habits that were masked by DSC came back to bite them.

DSC/MDM remains a tool available to the driver. Once one decides to go DSC off does not mean he cannot use it when needed. For instance, I still use MDM on a wet track or for the first few laps on a new track.

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The first point to consider is if one is willing to accept the added risk that comes with tracking with DSC off.

Assuming one accepts the risks, I would recommend going DSC off as soon as one is familiar enough with the track layout and proper racing line. After that, the sooner DSC comes off, the faster proper techniques will be learnt. What is fundamental is to adjust one's speed accordingly.

I have seen way too many incidents where decently fast drivers, that were relying on the aids to go fast, turned them off. The nasty habits that were masked by DSC came back to bite them.

DSC/MDM remains a tool available to the driver. Once one decides to go DSC off does not mean he cannot use it on occasion. For instance, I still use MDM on a wet track or for the first few laps on a new track.

All this

I'm also a proponent of turning off all DSC as soon as you're comfortable with it. Just go slow and gradually work up speed.

It's completely normal to have mishaps like you did, you just hope not to put it in a wall. I remember one cold day in my E36, I spun off track 3 times, finally putting the front end into a guard rail. I just zip tied and race taped the front end up and finished the day. I learned some things that day for sure.

[consolidated]

Good man for posting a very common error so we can all learn.

This happens all the time, fast car coupled with lack of car control and recovery skills and no seat time with nannies (almost) off. This is not meant as an insult at all.

[Cajun1]

I appreciate you posting this, good reminder to not rely completely on MDM Euro to save your bacon. Do you recall what gear you were in and where you were as far as progression thru the turn?

[Groundpilot]

"lets put stability control back on".
-"Absolutely"

[bojote]

3rd gear and aproximately 45-50 MPH. I was traveling on a straight line. My guess is that due to violent thorttle input it started spinning the rear passenger wheel faster and the car lost control.

I was able to replicate this several times today in an open parking lot. The car, when in sport mode and MDM enabled is sometimes very tail happy. You remember that red M4 going over the median? something like that. This is obviously EXTREMELY dangerous as you can be very well be on the highway trying to pass someone and spin like I did.

I simply post the video as a warning. recovering from a very violent fishtail even going at 45 mph is almost imposible

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by bojote

3rd gear and aproximately 45-50 MPH. I was traveling on a straight line. My guess is that due to violent thorttle input it started spinning the rear passenger wheel faster and the car lost control.

I was able to replicate this several times today in an open parking lot. The car, when in sport mode and MDM enabled is sometimes very tail happy. You remember that red M4 going over the median? something like that. This is obviously EXTREMELY dangerous as you can be very well be on the highway trying to pass someone and spin like I did.

I simply post the video as a warning. recovering from a very violent fishtail even going at 45 mph is almost imposible

Now, don't get into denial.

That wasn't a violent fishtail at all, it was a very slow spin. An easily recoverable one for that matter had you had the proper reflexes and technique. And no, you were not going in a straight line. From the video, it is quite obvious you pinched the steering wheel while applying throttle. A very common newb mistake and nothing to be ashamed of.

Same can be said for the M4 that jumped the median. It sidestepped very slowly and the driver did not correct with appropriate input. The F8X has a wonderful lively chassis that is quite easy to control when you know what you are doing. Just take the time to learn.

[M4 CSL]

Originally Posted by bojote

3rd gear and aproximately 45-50 MPH. I was traveling on a straight line. My guess is that due to violent thorttle input it started spinning the rear passenger wheel faster and the car lost control.

I was able to replicate this several times today in an open parking lot. The car, when in sport mode and MDM enabled is sometimes very tail happy. You remember that red M4 going over the median? something like that. This is obviously EXTREMELY dangerous as you can be very well be on the highway trying to pass someone and spin like I did.

I simply post the video as a warning. recovering from a very violent fishtail even going at 45 mph is almost imposible

The car did not loose control, you lost control or rather were never in control. If you have enough room, all slides are recoverable.

So don't take offence, rather have a think about a few things.

The moron in that red M4 was hanging onto the steering wheel for dear life, and thats why people say, THEY couldn't counter steer.

There are several factors for this. The Ghetto slouch. Adjust your seat correctly. Plant your left foot into the dead pedal to brace yourself.

So now the real cause (INERTIA) is not swinging on your body, causing you to hang onto the steering wheel as if it is a handle.

Your arms should be free no matter how much force is sliding the car sideways. You should be able to steer from lock to lock and back again effortlessly, because your BUTT is glued to the chair, and your left leg is forcing it harder into the chair, so you are NOT hanging onto the steering wheel.

That moron in the red M4 could have easily counter steered, Had he of had his seat, and seat belt properly adjusted and his left foot planted.

What happened in reality was, he was trying to look Cool, like he was sitting in an ARM chair. Then when the car started to go sideways, inertia started to move his body, and human instinct takes over and you clutch the wheel , hanging on for dear life to straighten your body, but you are unable to steer at this moment.

These are seriously beginner things. Both your slide and the moron in the red one were easily controllable had either of you sat in the car in an athletic position and known these few simple things.

When you butt is planted, you are one with the car. Your butt is connected and you FEEL the car moving and your hands instinctively move.

You really need to do a few schools and quickly. Youu will find it far more fun, and far safer. Cheers.


You never hear a drifter say, the car was sliding too violently and I couldn't counter steer. They are strapped in, so there hands are free and not clinging on to brace their body. Ken block has the car fully sideways at 100Mph, and can still turn the wheel and change direction. Has nothing to do with being a pro, he has two arms and a torso and a steering wheel just like you. He is just not getting pinned by inertia like the dude in the red m4.

[Groundpilot]

Two posters above gave you very good advice.
I would add one thing. You need to anticipate the spin every time you are turning the steering wheel and touching that throttle.
If you do that, you will be ready to countersteer timely. Slight delay and it will be too late.
Sitting position, how you hold your steering wheel while turning it, how you apply pressure on a throttle make a huge difference. You will learn it, it takes time.
In the meantime, i suggest to keep TC on untill you understand weight transfer and vehicle dynamics.
This is a very fast car with lots of torque. I just dont want you to destroy your expensive car
Have seen too many accidents associated with turning TC off by inexperienced drivers.

[MaynardZed]

You were definitely were NOT traveling in a straight line. The car was still loaded on its right side coming out of that last left hander before the straight/oval. You kept the wheel turned left while applying throttle and didn't counter steer soon enough when the rear started to let loose. If you would've headed further right, almost like you were going up the banking, the car would've settled and worse case you run over a cone.

We assure you, there is nothing wrong with your car. It comes down to the driver needing (a lot) more seat time and more car control practice. We're not trying to pick on you. The sooner you can recognize your mistakes instead of making excuses the sooner you'll improve. It can be a bitter pill to swallow, I've swallowed it many times.

[stranger]

I started off with dsc off

That way I built up my speed gradually learning to feather the throttle.

[M2Crew]

Nothing wrong with the car there. Prompt countersteer and minor throttle management gets you through that every time.

Efficient mode will offer less linearity for the track, given the noticeably greater turbo lag.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by bojote

I asked my instructor why was it that even though I did apply FULL counter steer the car could not be recovered, he said I applied so much throttle when exiting the turn that no amount of countersteer would have save me.

Still.. driver error, throttle input was way too aggressive for the power the car has. I'm planning to attend 2 day M Driving school April 7. I really want to get to know my car in a safe environment.

Good advice by instructor and others on this thread, and good call by you on more seat time.

F8X is very powerful, and it makes it harder to max out

Thanks for sharing! Glad you are ok. We've all been there!

[j09333]

Usual story. Just do dsc off or nothing.
Do alot of gaming simulation and it is cheaper that way.
If you dont do it in simulation game then no way you can do it in real life.
Counter steer is learned habit not natural talent for most of us.
Just make your self comfortable on the edge of slip angle.
Again, racing game like assetto corsa is good.
Granturismo has built in counter steer aid in the system so not much help since it is built to make uou feel hero.
iracing is good as long as you want to practice the map or practice slick tires.
Assetto corsa is good as one can get. Although not many tracks and no rain condition training.

I started out when I crashed my gt86 with my first time dsc off.
Did same thing as op did.
No countersteer spinning.
Then I got into gaming... Now I am learning how to drift. Lol dont be afraid and forget about grip driving. Fun is where there is no grip