[VIDEO] M4 spins out of control at Homestead Speedway, lessons learned

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by bojote

I've been involved in several situations throughout my life im which I have recovered (mostly low speed) from a spin. I asked my instructor why was it that even though I did apply FULL counter steer the car could not be recovered, he said I applied so much throttle when exiting the turn that no amount of countersteer would have save me.

Still.. driver error, throttle input was way too aggressive for the power the car has. I'm planning to attend 2 day M Driving school April 7. I really want to get to know my car in a safe environment.

That is utter total bullshit. It is very obvious from the video that you barely counter-steered at all. If it is really true that your instructor told you that (which I doubt), get another instructor.

There is nothing wrong with what you went through. All us avid trackers went through this process and we have eaten (and are still eating) our fair share of humble pie .

[CanAutM3]

Look at my "MPE video" below starting at 0:34. I am WOT, the rear tires are spinning and the car fishtails left and right. With quick counter-steer, I keep the car going straight.

In the second video, you can see me counter-steering on three occasions well before the car gets out of shape. The first point about counter-steering is to bring the car in line BEFORE it gets out of shape and only requires a quick flick of the wheel. You need to feel when the rear is just starting to slip out. If the car does get significantly sideways, you will need a fair bit of opposite lock. But you need quick hands and sharp reflexes.

[j09333]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That is utter total bullshit. It is very obvious from the video that you barely counter-steered at all. If it is really true that your instructor told you that (which I doubt), get another instructor.

That thread started well. You are now digging yourself in a hole. There is nothing wrong with what you went through. All us avid trackers went through this process and we have eaten (and are still eating) our fair share of humble pie .

He might counter steered after spin and thinks he did.

This is why camera should point and shoot the driver's hand on handle not outside view or anything else.

There is not much too learn shooting outside except shooting tire.

Also, get another instructor. I can manage even bigger tail slide than that with ease.

[Candide13]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

In the second video, you can see me counter-steering on three occasions well before the car gets out of shape. The first point about counter-steering is to bring the car in line BEFORE it gets out of shape and only requires a quick flick of the wheel. You need to feel when the rear is just starting to slip out. If the car does get significantly sideways, you will need a fair bit of opposite lock. But you need quick hands and sharp reflexes.

The second video is an unfair example, as it involves an E9x

In OP's clip you can't see the steering wheel, but I was listening out for a quick throttle release at the beginning of the slow spin. Did you release the throttle or was it over too quickly? That would be just as important for spin avoidance as the quick counter steer.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by j09333

Also, get another instructor. I can manage even bigger tail slide than that with ease.

I am an instructor myself. The video I posted is NOT a demonstration of drifting. It was simply meant to demonstrate how to catch an oversteer before it becomes a spin or a drift.

[j09333]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am an instructor myself. The video is NOT a demonstration of drifting. It was simply meant to demonstrate how to catch an oversteer before it becomes a spin or a drift.

I meant there are quite some room of margin left for recovery or he can put his foot down more with no problem exiting with correct amount of conter steer.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by j09333

I meant there are quite some room of margin left for recovery or he can put his foot down more with no problem exiting with correct amount of conter steer.

OK, I thought you were talking about my video .

[j09333]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

OK, I thought you were talking about my video .

No problem

The drift thing and when too much is too much, see 0:40....

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Candide13

The second video is an unfair example, as it involves an E9x

Fast forward to 2:25. This is me in my M4 with 2 corded rear tires as seen from my buddy's C5 Z06. Don't mind the driving too much as the car was very loose .

Originally Posted by Candide13

In OP's clip you can't see the steering wheel, but I was listening out for a quick throttle release at the beginning of the slow spin. Did you release the throttle or was it over too quickly? That would be just as important for spin avoidance as the quick counter steer.

While we can't see the steering wheel, we can get a good feel for the direction of travel of the front axle and hence steering angle. It is very obvious to me that there is very little counter-steering going on (if at all). IMO, the OP just froze when the rear stepped out.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by j09333

No problem

The drift thing and when too much is too much, see 0:40....

Thanks for sharing .

This thread is becoming fun again

[MaynardZed]

I'll throw in. I'd recommend the OP sign up for something like this drift school I did. Best $75 I ever spent and a shit ton of fun.

Prior to this course, my race instructor was critical of my hands, said they were too slow which tells him I'm not pushing the car as close to its limits as I could be. His advice (he's banned me from buying new tires for awhile) and this course may have helped. Recently did West track again in my E36 and had a PB lap time almost two seconds quicker than before. My hands weren't quite as dead and I actually tracked down two Porsche Cup cars in time trials with my 240hp E36.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by bojote

I asked my instructor why was it that even though I did apply FULL counter steer the car.....could not be recovered

Originally Posted by bojote

I simply post the video as a warning. recovering from a very violent fishtail even going at 45 mph is almost imposible[

Good that you are using video to critique (but the following I question)

Are you sure that you were in FULL opposite lock as in turned the steering wheel around more than one rotation or did your hands just steer to 12 and 6? This is also why it's good to have a view where you can see your hands when driving on track if you are truly going to use it to analyze your skills. See my video below and see how much the steering wheel is moving.

Albeit different cars, this is an 80 mph fishtail I recovered (which was pretty violent since it involved in) taking 1 rear off in the dirt on the right side, then taking 2 or 3 off on the left side in the dirt, finally hitting a patch of asphalt, which let me get some grip back and carry on. It is totally doable.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by j09333

No problem

The drift thing and when too much is too much, see 0:40....

if i go to korea (motherland) can I go to the track with you and drive your car? Don't worry I'm pro at drifting (think I've posted my vids in your original thread from a while back). Gam Sah!

[YMB_M3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

There is a series of events that occurred that caused you to go off track but Euro-MDM is not the culprit . That was a very slow spin.

As you say, too aggressive throttle coming out of the corner while pinching the steering wheel caused an oversteer situation. This was still completely manageable though. The complete lack of counter steer is what made the situation worse and caused the car to go off track on the inside.

Note that all of this is due to driver error. Period. Euro-MDM simply has a little more leeway than US-MDM, but one still needs to do the proper driver inputs to keep the car on track. Depending on your comfort level, I would definitely recommend you keep driving with at least MDM to eventually move to DSC off so you can learn proper throttle management and steering input. With DSC, the car is managing the throttle for you. Continuing to track with full DSC will just get you into nasty habits that are difficult to get rid of later on.

There is no need to go in "Efficient" mode. Sport and Sport+ are perfectly fine for the track (Sport+ is my preferred track engine setting), you just need to learn throttle modulation and coordination. Think of an imaginary string that links the steering wheel and throttle pedal. If you cannot open up the steering wheel, you cannot add more throttle. You might also want to consider some skidpad training to get those counter steer reflexes honed

Keep tracking

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The first point to consider is if one is willing to accept the added risk that comes with tracking with DSC off.

Assuming one accepts the risks, I would recommend going DSC off as soon as one is familiar enough with the track layout and proper racing line. After that, the sooner DSC comes off, the faster proper techniques will be learnt. What is fundamental is to adjust one's speed accordingly.

I have seen way too many incidents where decently fast drivers, that were relying on the aids to go fast, turned them off. The nasty habits that were masked by DSC came back to bite them.

DSC/MDM remains a tool available to the driver. Once one decides to go DSC off does not mean he cannot use it when needed. For instance, I still use MDM on a wet track or for the first few laps on a new track.

Do you think that even with euro mdm, which is much less intrusive than us mdm, drivers can still develop bad habits? I've seen the video showing that even euro mdm slightly intervenes even without the light flashing, but is it significant enough to develop bad habits? The reason I ask is that I prefer to have some sort of safety net in case all goes south but I would like to progress as a driver.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by kkashanchi

Do you think that even with euro mdm, which is much less intrusive than us mdm, drivers can still develop bad habits? I've seen the video showing that even euro mdm slightly intervenes even without the light flashing, but is it significant enough to develop bad habits? The reason I ask is that I prefer to have some sort of safety net in case all goes south but I would like to progress as a driver.

just start slow then. have the right frame of mind. practice the car control skills either on skid pad or a safe part of the track without other drivers around.

I also notice that because MDM (both kinds) will either cut throttle or hit the brakes, since it effectively kills the centri-force of the car's momentum, the steering wheel feels like it locks instead of wanting to correct itself. anyone else notice that?

[chrisca]

since we're sharing

here I am at Sonoma fooling around:

Here are some photos from the same day, some of those photos show some slides with full opposite lock

http://www.gotbluemilk.com/web151101/54/index.html

My only advice is to practice and be quick with the application of correction and just as quickly withdraw the correction when not needed (I think that's the hardest part).

[Pittspilot]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

Good that you are using video to critique (but the following I question)

Are you sure that you were in FULL opposite lock as in turned the steering wheel around more than one rotation or did your hands just steer to 12 and 6? This is also why it's good to have a view where you can see your hands when driving on track if you are truly going to use it to analyze your skills. See my video below and see how much the steering wheel is moving.

Albeit different cars, this is an 80 mph fishtail I recovered (which was pretty violent since it involved in) taking 1 rear off in the dirt on the right side, then taking 2 or 3 off on the left side in the dirt, finally hitting a patch of asphalt, which let me get some grip back and carry on. It is totally doable.

Nice save. Almost Mark Higgins worthy except he had less room. Must have raised the heart rate some.

For those that have not seen it, see above. Very tough save with limited room, high speed and huge consequences for not pulling it off.

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by chrisca

since we're sharing

here I am at Sonoma fooling around:

Here are some photos from the same day, some of those photos show some slides with full opposite lock

http://www.gotbluemilk.com/web151101/54/index.html

My only advice is to practice and be quick with the application of correction and just as quickly withdraw the correction when not needed (I think that's the hardest part).

Never liked drifting. Looks cool for the show, you do need good car control to do it without crashing , but all it does is slows you down and destroys tires quickly.

[j09333]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

if i go to korea (motherland) can I go to the track with you and drive your car? Don't worry I'm pro at drifting (think I've posted my vids in your original thread from a while back). Gam Sah!

Lol bro you can have my ferrari for drift. This baby is only for me

[W///]

Thanks to all the members that posted videos on this second page. Very entertaining to watch and definitely saved this thread (no pun intended)

[AM4ZING]

A simple counter-steer would have made this a powerslide thread

[j09333]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

A simple counter-steer would have made this a powerslide thread

Lets make powerslide thread