F82 EDC Base struts vs ZCP EDC

[Faildev]

Not too sure if anyone would know, would there be a difference in the base edc struts compared to the zcp edc? Looking to upgrade to zcp struts as mine are at 60k and starting to be very harsh on any kind of bumps. I appreciate the info if anyone knows!

[DeTh]

Originally Posted by Faildev

Not too sure if anyone would know, would there be a difference in the base edc struts compared to the zcp edc? Looking to upgrade to zcp struts as mine are at 60k and starting to be very harsh on any kind of bumps. I appreciate the info if anyone knows!

I'm seeing a little bit of conflicting information with my research. I believe this depends on your production date.
Adaptive M Suspension (S2VFA) front part numbers are 31312284787 and 31312284788.

Competition Package (S7MAA) and M Sport (S9MRA) front part numbers are 31318008627 and 31318008628, but indicated as for 6/2015 prod and newer.

[Aeko]

Bumping this to see if anyone has tried to change the actual struts for the 2VF vs 7MA? I've seen people change the VDC coding but haven't been able to confirm anyone who has swapped the physical dampers.

[RElias21]

My apologies if this is not an answer to the actual question of this thread, but IMHO, “upgrading” base EDC dampers to ZCP EDC dampers is not the right play.

Either the Bilstein B6 dampers or, even better, the Evolve-Bilstein B6 dampers are far superior options at I believe the same or lower price point.

The only downside is that they raise the ride height a bit, so may need to also add lowering springs.

[jbalabas]

I have a set of used edc shocks for sale with 20k miles on them if anyone is interested.

[Aeko]

Originally Posted by RElias21

My apologies if this is not an answer to the actual question of this thread, but IMHO, “upgrading” base EDC dampers to ZCP EDC dampers is not the right play.

Either the Bilstein B6 dampers or, even better, the Evolve-Bilstein B6 dampers are far superior options at I believe the same or lower price point.

The only downside is that they raise the ride height a bit, so may need to also add lowering springs.

I went the Evolve B6 route and I do not like them. The low speed is so tight that over roads with lots of undulations it bucks me out of the seat constantly. It's so bad I barely drive the car any more, so I'm looking to put a new set of OE dampers on it.

[McIntoshMotorSports]

Originally Posted by Aeko

I went the Evolve B6 route and I do not like them. The low speed is so tight that over roads with lots of undulations it bucks me out of the seat constantly. It's so bad I barely drive the car any more, so I'm looking to put a new set of OE dampers on it.

That’s disappointing to hear, I’ve been really wanting to pull the trigger on the evolve setup + MSS HAS. What springs are you running? Most of reviews I’ve seen stress how compliant this setup is overall.

I experience similar bucking characteristics from time to time and really bad roads; I’m just on KW HAS with stock dampers that are almost at 100K miles. CS coding makes a noticeable difference however.

[RElias21]

Originally Posted by Aeko

I went the Evolve B6 route and I do not like them. The low speed is so tight that over roads with lots of undulations it bucks me out of the seat constantly. It's so bad I barely drive the car any more, so I'm looking to put a new set of OE dampers on it.

Originally Posted by McIntoshMotorSports

That’s disappointing to hear, I’ve been really wanting to pull the trigger on the evolve setup + MSS HAS. What springs are you running? Most of reviews I’ve seen stress how compliant this setup is overall.

I experience similar bucking characteristics from time to time and really bad roads; I’m just on KW HAS with stock dampers that are almost at 100K miles. CS coding makes a noticeable difference however.

I don’t have any direct experience with the original Bilstein B6. I did recently purchase the Evolve-Bilstein version which is valved to be more compliant. I did pair it with the MSS HAS and CS EDC. I still need more seat time, but I actually do feel that it’s quite compliant. I’m very pleased with the ride, and it passed the wife test, which is very telling.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Aeko

I went the Evolve B6 route and I do not like them. The low speed is so tight that over roads with lots of undulations it bucks me out of the seat constantly. It's so bad I barely drive the car any more, so I'm looking to put a new set of OE dampers on it.

Not surprising. If the Evolve/Bilstein B6 monotube damper has a high enough gas pressure that’s raising the car up when installed then they have a gas pressure force that is equivalent to a preloaded spring in parallel (off loads main spring, vs. series) to the main spring. The high gas pressure is required to prevent cavitation and loss of damper performance. So the damper piston rod does not start to move relative to the damper body until the gas pressure force is exceeded in compression and, consequently, the tire rides over, rather than follows, bumps of a max size and smaller. This directly affects ride quality in terms of impacts, harshness and perceived stiffness (infinitely stiff spring with an undamped applied force). This is one of the advantages of having a monotube damper with a remote reservoir (vs. an internal sealed reservoir) that controls compression damping adjustments and pressure - you set the reservoir pressure to a much lower value while driving on the streets (e.g., 100 psi as well as significantly reducing the compression damping setting) and then raising it (e.g., 250 psi as well as increasing compression setting) while on track. Bilstein tends to run a high gas pressure compared to Koni yellows, for example.

[Aeko]

Originally Posted by McIntoshMotorSports

That’s disappointing to hear, I’ve been really wanting to pull the trigger on the evolve setup + MSS HAS. What springs are you running? Most of reviews I’ve seen stress how compliant this setup is overall.

I experience similar bucking characteristics from time to time and really bad roads; I’m just on KW HAS with stock dampers that are almost at 100K miles. CS coding makes a noticeable difference however.

Stock M2C springs, this is on an F87. I went from non-EDC, to EDC (retrofit), to Evolve B6 EDC, all on stock springs so I got a 1:1:1 of what the dampers were like. Going EDC made a few of the changes I was looking for but the difference between modes wasn't quite as different as I was hoping, which is what the B6 promised. The difference between the firmest and softest B6 setting does not feel that much different than OE mode range on stock springs.

One of the main issues of note is that something seems off with the dampers and the Sport+ mode is the most comfortable, and Comfort is unbearably stiff. This was not a problem on the OE EDC dampers and all I did was directly swap the B6. I did a lot of troubleshooting and testing and everything else except the mode "flip" seems normal except the ride quality degraded significantly going from OE to Bilstein, likely due to the gas pressure as mentioned.

When it's in Sport+ with the B6 it does feel like it handles beautifully but it's still just too damn harsh for the terrible roads here. My next move is going with a new set of OE EDC ZCP struts (previous were used and I didn't know that the fronts were ZCP, rears were non-ZCP), and move to 18" wheels for more sidewall. I'm just not going to be able to get around that if I want to really drive the car more.

[McIntoshMotorSports]

Originally Posted by Aeko

Stock M2C springs, this is on an F87. I went from non-EDC, to EDC (retrofit), to Evolve B6 EDC, all on stock springs so I got a 1:1:1 of what the dampers were like. Going EDC made a few of the changes I was looking for but the difference between modes wasn't quite as different as I was hoping, which is what the B6 promised. The difference between the firmest and softest B6 setting does not feel that much different than OE mode range on stock springs.

One of the main issues of note is that something seems off with the dampers and the Sport+ mode is the most comfortable, and Comfort is unbearably stiff. This was not a problem on the OE EDC dampers and all I did was directly swap the B6. I did a lot of troubleshooting and testing and everything else except the mode "flip" seems normal except the ride quality degraded significantly going from OE to Bilstein, likely due to the gas pressure as mentioned.

When it's in Sport+ with the B6 it does feel like it handles beautifully but it's still just too damn harsh for the terrible roads here. My next move is going with a new set of OE EDC ZCP struts (previous were used and I didn't know that the fronts were ZCP, rears were non-ZCP), and move to 18" wheels for more sidewall. I'm just not going to be able to get around that if I want to really drive the car more.

Try the CS EDC coding, should make a noticeable difference.

[M3SQRD]

OEM and aftermarket EDC suspensions are trying to find the optimal damping rate to minimize the number of oscillations, not provide a softer ride, and keep the tire following the road surface. This is true in comfort, sport and sport+ settings with the difference being different base damping curves but the goal is still the same - find the ideal damping rate to minimize the oscillations. You could design an active damper to provide a smoother, less harsh ride if that’s the goal (KW DDC supposedly are this way). I’m not surprised to hear the B6 is not any better at improving ride quality than the OEM EDC dampers. A set of higher quality adjustable non-EDC dampers (lower quality = harsher) is the way to go if you want to make the ride less harsh than OEM EDC because you can adjust the damping so that it is more underdamped. Also, high end dampers compression blow-off valves do an amazing job of absorbing large bumps.

[WhiteFox]

Hi Guys - Looking to put on F83 any views on hardness of ride as don’t want it any harder than what I have currently

[RugbyBro]

IMO stock suspension on most F8X (and most BMWs) is under sprung and improperly damped. CS tuning really helps with the damping part hence why it rides much better than non-CS tunes. Good compromise on OE equipment.

There is MUCH better damping out there from non-OE sources, as alluded to by M3SQRD .

[Aeko]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

OEM and aftermarket EDC suspensions are trying to find the optimal damping rate to minimize the number of oscillations, not provide a softer ride, and keep the tire following the road surface. This is true in comfort, sport and sport+ settings with the difference being different base damping curves but the goal is still the same - find the ideal damping rate to minimize the oscillations. You could design an active damper to provide a smoother, less harsh ride if that’s the goal (KW DDC supposedly are this way). I’m not surprised to hear the B6 is not any better at improving ride quality than the OEM EDC dampers. A set of higher quality adjustable non-EDC dampers (lower quality = harsher) is the way to go if you want to make the ride less harsh than OEM EDC because you can adjust the damping so that it is more underdamped. Also, high end dampers compression blow-off valves do an amazing job of absorbing large bumps.

I just came here looking for feedback on the OE standard vs ZCP because I made the decision to re-fit the OE EDC kit. I understand what you're saying but ultimately I don't want to wind up spending $15k in the long run finding the ideal setup for me.

I understand handling vs ride in damping are virtually opposite objectives. I didn't buy an M2C for a pillowy ride or I would have gone with an RC 350 F-sport. I'm looking for a middle ground that I can tighten up for spirited driving. However, with the B6 regardless of the handling the car was bucking and bouncing all over the place to a point where on anything but completely level roads there was no telling what the car would do consistently because it was too busy putting my head into the roof. The handling gain was not worth the ride quality sacrifice.

I already have the ZCP fronts back on the car (waiting on new rears to show up) and I'm immensely happier with how the car rides and handles. I have been using the F87CS coding this entire time so once I have the OE struts back on I'll drive with the different codings (F80/2 Base, Comp, CS) and see what changes.

KW Doesn't officially have an EDC kit for the F87 and I don't want the DDC because don't want to drill a hole for aftermarket buttons, and I want the M buttons to adjust the suspension. I asked them about using the F80/2 kit and they were, frankly, assholes about it when I asked them why it wouldn't work. They kept telling me things like the M4 was "much heavier" and "required stiffer valving" when the M2CS has the literally identical ZCP kit from the factory, and I decided not to give them my money.

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

IMO stock suspension on most F8X (and most BMWs) is under sprung and improperly damped. CS tuning really helps with the damping part hence why it rides much better than non-CS tunes. Good compromise on OE equipment.

There is MUCH better damping out there from non-OE sources, as alluded to by M3SQRD .

Honestly, I believe this, but suspension companies really like to claim their dampers handle on rails while riding like a caddy without providing any quantitative data like dyno graphs, so it makes decision-making impossible. I'm literally getting so fed up with this I'm about to build my own shock dyno and test anything I can get my hands on because I hate subjective hand waving nonsense.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Aeko

I just came here looking for feedback on the OE standard vs ZCP because I made the decision to re-fit the OE EDC kit. I understand what you're saying but ultimately I don't want to wind up spending $15k in the long run finding the ideal setup for me.

I understand handling vs ride in damping are virtually opposite objectives. I didn't buy an M2C for a pillowy ride or I would have gone with an RC 350 F-sport. I'm looking for a middle ground that I can tighten up for spirited driving. However, with the B6 regardless of the handling the car was bucking and bouncing all over the place to a point where on anything but completely level roads there was no telling what the car would do consistently because it was too busy putting my head into the roof. The handling gain was not worth the ride quality sacrifice.

I already have the ZCP fronts back on the car (waiting on new rears to show up) and I'm immensely happier with how the car rides and handles. I have been using the F87CS coding this entire time so once I have the OE struts back on I'll drive with the different codings (F80/2 Base, Comp, CS) and see what changes.

KW Doesn't officially have an EDC kit for the F87 and I don't want the DDC because don't want to drill a hole for aftermarket buttons, and I want the M buttons to adjust the suspension. I asked them about using the F80/2 kit and they were, frankly, assholes about it when I asked them why it wouldn't work. They kept telling me things like the M4 was "much heavier" and "required stiffer valving" when the M2CS has the literally identical ZCP kit from the factory, and I decided not to give them my money.


Honestly, I believe this, but suspension companies really like to claim their dampers handle on rails while riding like a caddy without providing any quantitative data like dyno graphs, so it makes decision-making impossible. I'm literally getting so fed up with this I'm about to build my own shock dyno and test anything I can get my hands on because I hate subjective hand waving nonsense.

Just keep your CS EDC with the ZCP struts and call it a day. You will not find a better damping tune using OE struts.

Handle on rails while feeling like a caddy doesn't exist, however, a proper coilover setup from MCS, Ohlins (TTX), Etc. will handle on rails and absorb impacts much better than OE hardware thus leading to the perception of better comfort... so you can have it all in a sense. It just will cost you $$$$$$$.

Of course there are lower priced options - I really like TC Kline's complete double adjustable koni package for ~$3.5k. Older tech but very underrated as a dual purpose suspension, rides much better than stock on the street and still feels great on track.

But yah, the one thing all the best suspensions I've driven and ridden in have in common? They are all manually adjustable & non-EDC. Which I know you're not looking for, but it also drives the point home that it's tough to make EDC exactly what you want as it's designed to try to be everything to everybody.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Of course there are lower priced options - I really like TC Kline's complete double adjustable koni package for ~$3.5k. Older tech but very underrated as a dual purpose suspension, rides much better than stock on the street and still feels great on track.

I agree with everything you said above except for TCK’s suspension offerings. They were great on the e46 but, with the spring rate limitations of F/R 400/700 lbf/in (rear divorced), the limitations started to show up on the e92. I tried the 400/700 setup with his SA dampers on one of our e92 M3s (wife’s car) in 2012 and the car was so underdamped that I pulled it off the car after just one week and purchased a set of JRZ RS1 with the same rates. No comparison between the two SA dampers and the 400/700 rates on the JRZs were perfect for a street biased setup so it wasn’t the spring rates. The TCK DA was only marginally better on the e92 than the SA setup. The weight of the F8x and its spring rate requirements, even for a street setup, are too high for the TCK SA and DA setups. It’s time for a change in his low spring rate philosophy setups.

[M3SQRD]

Aeko

I understand and appreciate your concerns. I understand not wanting to spend money on suspension setup after suspension setup after…However, if you work with manufacturers or companies that can properly valve dampers and provide spring rates for your specific goals, you can achieve the ride you’re looking for with non-active adjustable dampers and I’m not talking about $5k+ damper setups. For example, 3DM offers customizable Ohlins R&T setups for the road for under $3.5k. However, things get way better with the $5k+ setups especially with compressive blow-off valving and the valving technology + 2/3/4 way adjustable damping. I’m running MCS 2WR setups on my e92 M3 (600/900 divorced rear), f82 M4 (700/1000 divorced rear currently but switching to rear c/o with 1000/900) and F22 M240ix (500/800 divorced rear), and if you were to drive any of them you’d be amazed by their performance and driveability/comfort-ness, even the M4 with 700/1000 rates. I always recommend buying the best setup you can afford, even if it means saving and waiting, so you only have to spend your money once, not over and over again. The CS EDC + ZCP dampers is a good compromise because performance and comfort. BYW, my comments about EDC/active setups wasn’t directed at you. I wanted to let people know that EDC/active is trying to minimize movements in the suspension with as few cycles as possible and it’s not doing this for comfort. The comfort setting just starts with a lower base damping curve but its goal is still to minimize movement as fast as possible.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I agree with everything you said above except for TCK’s suspension offerings. They were great on the e46 but, with the spring rate limitations of F/R 400/700 lbf/in (rear divorced), the limitations started to show up on the e92. I tried the 400/700 setup with his SA dampers on one of our e92 M3s (wife’s car) in 2012 and the car was so underdamped that I pulled it off the car after just one week and purchased a set of JRZ RS1 with the same rates. No comparison between the two SA dampers and the 400/700 rates on the JRZs were perfect for a street biased setup so it wasn’t the spring rates. The TCK DA was only marginally better on the e92 than the SA setup. The weight of the F8x and its spring rate requirements, even for a street setup, are too high for the TCK SA and DA setups. It’s time for a change in his low spring rate philosophy setups.

Oh don’t worry I run the same spring rates as you (700 Front 600 True Coil rear) on 2WR as my dual purpose setup; totally agree this chassis likes stiffer springs and I plan on bumping by 100 lbs if/once the F80 becomes less of a DD. But I also ran 550/450 with stiffer sway bar settings and that felt great too, definitely more than capable enough on track and very very civilized on the street and no less capable for most drivers if I’m honest (myself included).

But we can’t compare a TC Kline setup to a proper MCS/JRZ/TTX setup, the TCs cost half as much or less. Really the context of my point is that as a full package (springs, perches, camber plates, shocks) at less than $3.5k I don’t think you’re going to find something better as a street + a couple track days a year setup. And if we’re talking about improving from stock ride & damping, I would say they definitely do that.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Oh don’t worry I run the same spring rates as you (700 Front 600 True Coil rear) on 2WR as my dual purpose setup; totally agree this chassis likes stiffer springs and I plan on bumping by 100 lbs if/once the F80 becomes less of a DD. But I also ran 550/450 with stiffer sway bar settings and that felt great too, definitely more than capable enough on track and very very civilized on the street and no less capable for most drivers if I’m honest (myself included).

But we can’t compare a TC Kline setup to a proper MCS/JRZ/TTX setup, the TCs cost half as much or less. Really the context of my point is that as a full package (springs, perches, camber plates, shocks) at less than $3.5k I don’t think you’re going to find something better as a street + a couple track days a year setup. And if we’re talking about improving from stock ride & damping, I would say they definitely do that.

I wasn’t comparing TCK to MCS, Ohlins or JRZ remote setups. The JRZ RS1, a 1-way adjustable setup, was $3400. It was < $1k more than TCK back in 2012.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I wasn’t comparing TCK to MCS, Ohlins or JRZ remote setups. The JRZ RS1, a 1-way adjustable setup, was $3400. It was < $1k more than TCK back in 2012.

Yes but this entire conversation is heading in the direction of some of these higher end systems. Truthfully no one actually cares how suspension works outside of you, me, and the other evangelists here no matter how much we preach. And tho it may seem contrary, I’m with you 100% here so don’t take this as disagreement in anyway.

Your avg M car driver just cares about if it feels good, can they be quick on it, and how does it impact their budget. Hence why I think both TCK and Bilstein CS (my other underdog pick) are two underrated suspensions that are favorable to feel, quick, and budget.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Yes but this entire conversation is heading in the direction of some of these higher end systems. Truthfully no one actually cares how suspension works outside of you, me, and the other evangelists here no matter how much we preach. And tho it may seem contrary, I’m with you 100% here so don’t take this as disagreement in anyway.

Your avg M car driver just cares about if it feels good, can they be quick on it, and how does it impact their budget. Hence why I think both TCK and Bilstein CS (my other underdog pick) are two underrated suspensions that are favorable to feel, quick, and budget.

The Bilstein CS is around $4.7k. I’d take MCS 1WNR over the Bilstein CS 2-way.

My pick for the best “affordable” setup is 3DM’s custom Ohlins R&T Road setup. I have the R&Ts, with softer rates that I selected, on my R56 Mini CS and it’s been an excellent street damper for over a decade. They’re noise free, no harshness, and every 1-2 clicks in rebound (plus a fixed % of compression change with rebound) is noticeable. The main issue for the F8x R&T kit is the original 1305 lbf/in rear spring rate!

If TCK could revalve the Koni’s to handle a 500-600 lbf/in F and 800-900 lbf/in R spring rates then his DA setup could still be competitive with other dual-purpose setups. Still would not be competitive against other track-biased setups on the F8x.