Paragon P2 Brake Pad Interest?

[F87source]

Hey guys, I just had a question for anyone interested in low dust brake pads. I know that the Akebono euro ceramic brake pads are pretty popular with alot of bmw owners on here because they produce little to no brake dust. However, I know that alot of users also don't like them because they fade way too quickly even on spirited driving and don't really offer a very good initial bite.


Upon speaking to Paragon brakes I think there may potentially be a significantly better alternative brake compound to the akebono's and other low dust ceramic brake pads - and this is the paragon p2 brake pad. These p2 brake pads are based off of winmax's brake pad compounds and I assume these are very similar if not just a rebranded winmax w2 pad. So for those of you who don't know what the W2's are, they are extremely extremely good and well reknowned pads in the JDM car world (I came from the FRS world and that is where I experienced alot of winmax pads, but I didn't get the chance to try the W2's but I have heard they are excellent) and the W2's are supposedly the best low dust street pads you can get. They offer extremely low noise (supposed to be OEM levels) and low dusting (on the level of ceramic pads) but they offer significantly better initial bite compared to alternative ceramic pads with a whopping ~0.43-0.44 coefficent of friction, and are able to retain a relatively high coefficent of friction in respect to temperature. So despite fading they should retain more friction than any alternative ceramic brake pad and not be completely unuseable with hard driving on the street. So pretty much you shouldn't be able to fade these pads to a level where they are unsafe/unuseable on the street.

Here's a graph to show it's coefficent of friction vs. temp:

Credit: paragon https://paragonbrakes.com/paragon-pbp1548-brake-pads/


So the only issue is Paragon doesn't stock these pads because they don't think there is any interest, so that's where you guys come in. If you guys are potentially interested in buying these style of pads reply to this thread and vote in the poll to show paragon your interest. Paragon has told me If enough of you guys want these pads then they'll stock it.

[M3SQRD]

Other low dust pads with excellent street performance are Carbotech 1521 (or GLOC GS-1 which is identical) compound and the Porterfield R4S compound (not the R4 which is a track pad). CT and Porterfield always stock these compounds. You can get them in the stock blue caliper pad shapes and the Paragon six-piston caliper pad shape (PFC 7790). If they don’t already offer CCB caliper pad shapes, they’ll custom make a set (and then offer it as a standard option) if you send in a set of used backing plates.

I have never used Peragon/Winmax pad compounds personally. The P2 pad compound friction curve shows excellent initial low temperature friction (up to 212 F) but then drops of linearly after 212 F. For comparison, the CT 1521 compound is useable up to 800 F and then shows gradual fading characteristics.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Other low dust pads with excellent street performance are Carbotech 1521 (or GLOC GS-1 which is identical) compound and the Porterfield R4S compound (not the R4 which is a track pad). CT and Porterfield always stock these compounds. You can get them in the stock blue caliper pad shapes and the Paragon six-piston caliper pad shape (PFC 7790). If they don’t already offer CCB caliper pad shapes, they’ll custom make a set (and then offer it as a standard option) if you send in a set of used backing plates.

I have never used Peragon/Winmax pad compounds personally. The P2 pad compound friction curve shows excellent initial low temperature friction (up to 212 F) but then drops of linearly after 212 F. For comparison, the CT 1521 compound is useable up to 800 F and then shows gradual fading characteristics.

Yeah they are options, but for some reason some of them are not easy to find. For the gloc only vorshlag offers them I couldn't find them anywhere else for the f8x. Do you have friction curves for the other pads you mentioned as well? I couldn't find that either. But it's good to have options.

Pricing is also higher than the p2's, so it would be a nice option to have the Paragon/winmax pads as an alternative. It would be easier to find and buy these pads too.


I'm going to try out the Paragon P3 and R5 and see how they perform on the f8x and report back. I believe these are the ones I used on my frs (w3 and w5) and loved them. I don't remember how bad dusting was because the frs stock pads weren't remotely as bad as the f8x stock pads so I'll report back on that too. Hopefully it's better in that aspect.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah they are options, but for some reason some of them are not easy to find. For the gloc only vorshlag offers them I couldn't find them anywhere else for the f8x. Do you have friction curves for the other pads you mentioned as well? I couldn't find that either. But it's good to have options.

Pricing is also higher than the p2's, so it would be a nice option to have the Paragon/winmax pads as an alternative. It would be easier to find and buy these pads too.


I'm going to try out the Paragon P3 and R5 and see how they perform on the f8x and report back. I believe these are the ones I used on my frs (w3 and w5) and loved them. I don't remember how bad dusting was because the frs stock pads weren't remotely as bad as the f8x stock pads so I'll report back on that too. Hopefully it's better in that aspect.

No friction curves, just 20+ years of using R4S and CT street pads (street pad compound changed once during that time). R4S is quoted as having a COF of 0.41. I’ve never had availability issues when directly ordering from Porterfield and CT. Maybe a small delay in shipping times because they’ve had to make the pads. PFC z-rated pads are another viable option but they perform similar to race pads - no initial cold bite for the first few stops; however, no machining of rotors when cold. My first choice is CT 1521. Currently running them in PFC calipers (e92 M3s), AP racing calipers (f82 M4) and stock blue calipers (f22 M240ix). Worked with Mike (owner) to perfect the PFC 7790 pad backing plate geometry and pad material placement. Also, PFC Z31 pads (4 pads/caliper) were custom made pads.

Are Peragon’s R pads, race compounds? I’ve had only one race pad compound, PFC 11, that didn’t squeal loudly. The rest sounded like a trash truck coming to a stop.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

No friction curves, just 20+ years of using R4S and CT street pads (street pad compound changed once during that time). I’ve never had availability issues when directly ordering from Porterfield and CT. Maybe a small delay in shipping times because they’ve had to make the pads. PFC z-rated pads are another option but they perform similar to race pads - no initial cold bite for the first few stops; however, no machining of rotors when cold. My first choice is CT 1521. Currently running them in PFC calipers (e92 M3s), AP racing calipers (f82 M4) and stock blue calipers (f22 M240ix). Worked with Mike (owner) to perfect the PFC 7790 pad backing plate geometry and pad material placement. Also, PFC Z31 pads (4 pads/caliper) were custom made pads.

Are Peragon’s R pads, race compounds? I’ve had only one race pad compound, PFC 11, that didn’t squeal loudly. The rest sounded like a trash truck coming to a stop.

Yeah I didn't expect many people to share their friction curve chart, it might be proprietary. Ill try to navigate their site again, but it's quite terrible (carbotech) for some reason the model will not populate after selecting make. Maybe a database query issue idk, but it takes a bunch of fiddling to get it to work.

Ok so carbotech 1521 costs $524 and Paragon p2 costs $324, that's quite a big chunk of change imo and idk if it's necessarily worth the difference. I haven't tried either pad on this platform so I can't comment other than I know winmax's are really good on the frs platform and people really loved the w2. So I'd love it if Paragon stock a few sets for us to try out.




Yup the R pads are race compounds and that means it's going to squeal and squeak like crazy on the street so it really isn't ideal for street use. I'm interested in them for track use (I wish they stocked the R7 instead of the R5, I'm afraid the R5 won't have a high enough temp ceiling but we will see), and the p2's are semi metallic and I'm interested in them for street/autox use (so I don't have to keep changing pads all the time, it's pretty much a dual purpose pad). I kind of like paragon's pads, they're really affordable compared to the competition and offer pretty good performance. So I can't wait to try them out this summer.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah I didn't expect many people to share their friction curve chart, it might be proprietary. Ill try to navigate their site again, but it's quite terrible (carbotech) for some reason the model will not populate after selecting make. Maybe a database query issue idk, but it takes a bunch of fiddling to get it to work.

Ok so carbotech 1521 costs $524 and Paragon p2 costs $324, that's quite a big chunk of change imo and idk if it's necessarily worth the difference. I haven't tried either pad on this platform so I can't comment other than I know winmax's are really good on the frs platform and people really loved the w2. So I'd love it if Paragon stock a few sets for us to try out.




Yup the R pads are race compounds and that means it's going to squeal and squeak like crazy on the street so it really isn't ideal for street use. I'm interested in them for track use (I wish they stocked the R7 instead of the R5, I'm afraid the R5 won't have a high enough temp ceiling but we will see), and the p2's are semi metallic and I'm interested in them for street/autox use (so I don't have to keep changing pads all the time, it's pretty much a dual purpose pad). I kind of like paragon's pads, they're really affordable compared to the competition and offer pretty good performance. So I can't wait to try them out this summer.

I’ve seen a lot of friction curves for various pad compounds from the same manufacturer where they have a unit-less y-axis so you can only relatively compare their pad compounds but can’t compare with any other pad manufacturers. Could be due to proprietary reasons.

I’m used to spending $600-700 for just the F pads in PFC and AP calipers so $500 for a complete F & R set sounds cheap! Yeah, $200 difference is significant. The P2 pad, based on its friction curve, looks like it doesn’t have a high resistance to fade even on the street. The PFC z-rated pad compound is an excellent dual-duty pad but requires a little heat before the bite well. Once there’s heat in them they have a high resistance to fade for a street compound. Nice thing about CT1521 is it’s compatible with PFC race compounds so it’s easy to transfer new pad material to the rotors. Below are unit-less friction and characteristic curves for PFC race and street compounds. PFC race pads are by far my favorite pads. The new 331, 332 and 333 pads work well with stock ABS systems. 11 and their old 03 and 05 are my go to track pads. The Paragon P2 and P3 curves show very different characteristics - P2 much better initial bite but P3 has higher resistance to fade and better bite at higher temps. P3 is probably the better dual-purpose pad if you can deal with a lower initial cold and hot bite. P7 looks far superior to P5 but but their curves are only up to ~1500 F. PFC and CT pads can handle ~1800-2000 F before fading. Friction curves don’t tell you the full story about pad characteristics which is what really separates one pad compound from another. Makes recommending race pad compounds difficult because people have different braking styles (street pads less so but it still matters). So it’s worth trying the different Peragon P and R compounds to find out if they match your braking style and preferences.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I’ve seen a lot of friction curves for various pad compounds from the same manufacturer where they have a unit-less y-axis so you can only relatively compare their pad compounds but can’t compare with any other pad manufacturers. Could be due to proprietary reasons.

I’m used to spending $600-700 for just the F pads in PFC and AP calipers so $500 for a complete F & R set sounds cheap! Yeah, $200 difference is significant. The P2 pad, based on its friction curve, looks like it doesn’t have a high resistance to fade even on the street. The PFC z-rated pad compound is an excellent dual-duty pad but requires a little heat before the bite well. Once there’s heat in them they have a high resistance to fade for a street compound. Nice thing about CT1521 is it’s compatible with PFC race compounds so it’s easy to transfer new pad material to the rotors. Below are unit-less friction and characteristic curves for PFC race and street compounds. PFC race pads are by far my favorite pads. The new 331, 332 and 333 pads work well with stock ABS systems. 11 and their old 03 and 05 are my go to track pads. The Paragon P2 and P3 curves show very different characteristics - P2 much better initial bite but P3 has higher resistance to fade and better bite at higher temps. P3 is probably the better dual-purpose pad if you can deal with a lower initial cold and hot bite. P7 looks far superior to P5 but but their curves are only up to ~1500 F. PFC and CT pads can handle ~1800-2000 F before fading. Friction curves don’t tell you the full story about pad characteristics which is what really separates one pad compound from another. Makes recommending race pad compounds difficult because people have different braking styles (street pads less so but it still matters). So it’s worth trying the different Peragon P and R compounds to find out if they match your braking style and preferences.

Yup that's the thing with pads, everyone has a different flavor so you have to try them until you find one you like. Some people like super bitey pads some don't and rather have a linear less bitey pad.

The purpose with the P2's is that they offer the high initial bite that the akebonos don't tend to have, and despite dropping off as you get hotter they won't completely just fall off (since they start at such a high mu even when they drop off they drop to a reasonable mu), they fade but should still be useable - which apparently is a problem with the akebonos. Then if you want to compare with the akebonos price is a huge factor because the akebonos are so cheap. It is unlikely a cross shopper would go from ~$200 range for akebonos to ~$500 range for other pads. Plus these are just street pads and people buying them primarily just want to stop the dust issue, so that's what they're primarily for, and if they can handle some spirited driving then all the better (especially since I keep hearing akebonos fade like crazy when you lean on them).


In regards to the P3's that's what I will be testing this summer, I do have some R5's too and if I can get some track time I will get some feedback on those too. I'll do a review on them, and keep everyone posted on brake dust and noise levels. Albeit for the R5's since they're a track pad no one should expect low dust or low noise. For the P3's they might be right on the limit of dust to noise, they likely will have a bit more noise than stock pads, but in terms of dust it might be equal or less than stock since the stock pads are absolutely ridiculous in terms of brake dust generation on these cars. So pretty much my review will be to give exposure on the pargon pads and give the first little snippet of data on them for the F8x platform, if you guys like what you see from my testing then there is another quality pad for you guys to buy.

[M3SQRD]

Yes, pad choice is an individualized thing but it’s still possible to recommend pad compounds to someone if provided with sufficient information. Selecting F and R compounds can be just as difficult as finding a pad with the characteristics you like. I generally prefer to run a pad with higher friction on the R whereas most people tend to use a less aggressive pad on the R. I like to move the brake bias more toward the R.

I personally find BMW stock pads to have way too much initial bite and, definitely agree, the stock pads produce way too much brake dust. Due to the extremely high initial bite, stock pads give people a false sense of confidence in the overall braking performance. They believe a strong initial bite = shorter braking distance. Initial bite is only one piece of the larger puzzle that defines whether you’ll stop quicker and/or shorter; however, it’s ultimately tire grip that determines the overall braking stopping distance. As you know, the addition of an aftermarket brake kit isn’t about reducing the braking distance, it’s about being able to repeatably stop at the same braking distance over and over again. Stock and aftermarket brakes can over power stock/street tires so if you want to stop shorter then you need to install stickier tires.

I concur. Pretty much every BMW owner is primary concerned with reducing the amount of brake dust produced yet maintain the same braking performance and characteristics as stock pads. It’s not easy to do this and it explains why pads that have similar characteristics/performance as stock pads but with minimal brake dust have prices that are much $$$$. The Peragon P2 compound looks promising on paper and it also has a good price point. Now someone has to be the Guinea pig to find out how the P2 actually performs on the f8x (or any other model with M Sport and M Performance 4p/2p brakes) relative to other low dust pads, such as the akebonos, and stock pads.

You might be right about the P3 compound or perhaps you’ll be pleasantly surprised with relatively low levels of dust and noise. Any R pad compound is likely too noisy and/or too dusty. At least it gives you an excuse for some fun street and track driving.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Yes, pad choice is an individualized thing but it’s still possible to recommend pad compounds to someone if provided with sufficient information. Selecting F and R compounds can be just as difficult as finding a pad with the characteristics you like. I generally prefer to run a pad with higher friction on the R whereas most people tend to use a less aggressive pad on the R. I like to move the brake bias more toward the R.

I personally find BMW stock pads to have way too much initial bite and, definitely agree, the stock pads produce way too much brake dust. Due to the extremely high initial bite, stock pads give people a false sense of confidence in the overall braking performance. They believe a strong initial bite = shorter braking distance. Initial bite is only one piece of the larger puzzle that defines whether you’ll stop quicker and/or shorter; however, it’s ultimately tire grip that determines the overall braking stopping distance. As you know, the addition of an aftermarket brake kit isn’t about reducing the braking distance, it’s about being able to repeatably stop at the same braking distance over and over again. Stock and aftermarket brakes can over power stock/street tires so if you want to stop shorter then you need to install stickier tires.

I concur. Pretty much every BMW owner is primary concerned with reducing the amount of brake dust produced yet maintain the same braking performance and characteristics as stock pads. It’s not easy to do this and it explains why pads that have similar characteristics/performance as stock pads but with minimal brake dust have prices that are much $$$$. The Peragon P2 compound looks promising on paper and it also has a good price point. Now someone has to be the Guinea pig to find out how the P2 actually performs on the f8x (or any other model with M Sport and M Performance 4p/2p brakes) relative to other low dust pads, such as the akebonos, and stock pads.

You might be right about the P3 compound or perhaps you’ll be pleasantly surprised with relatively low levels of dust and noise. Any R pad compound is likely too noisy and/or too dusty. At least it gives you an excuse for some fun street and track driving.

I think the stock pads feel really bitey because bmw has the pedal over boosted for safety, check this out: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1885341

But me personally I really like a grabby brake, but modulation needs to be present - it can't be an on/off switch.

If anyone wants to be a tester it'll be a 2-3 month wait if you placed an order on paragon's store (atleast that's what I was told), so hopefully someone does try this or maybe Paragon can stock it. We do have a lot of data on the akebonos and the consensus is that it kind of has a weak initial bite and fades even on spirited street driving so not really ideal. But the benefit is almost no dust.


Hopefully the p3's will be excellent and produce less dust than stock, that would be great if such a duala duty pad were to exist. I'll wash the car before the test and report back a bit after. It'll be a really good pad if that's the case, oh yeah and hopefully it doesn't squeak and squeal that would be really annoying lol.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by F87source

I think the stock pads feel really bitey because bmw has the pedal over boosted for safety, check this out: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1885341

But me personally I really like a grabby brake, but modulation needs to be present - it can't be an on/off switch.

If anyone wants to be a tester it'll be a 2-3 month wait if you placed an order on paragon's store (atleast that's what I was told), so hopefully someone does try this or maybe Paragon can stock it. We do have a lot of data on the akebonos and the consensus is that it kind of has a weak initial bite and fades even on spirited street driving so not really ideal. But the benefit is almost no dust.


Hopefully the p3's will be excellent and produce less dust than stock, that would be great if such a duala duty pad were to exist. I'll wash the car before the test and report back a bit after. It'll be a really good pad if that's the case, oh yeah and hopefully it doesn't squeak and squeal that would be really annoying lol.

My M4 is definitely not over boosted. Essex/AP CP9668/CP9449 calipers with PFC 11 race compound are not grabby or bitey. The PFC 11 compound has more initial bite than stock pads and they are not an on/off switch. Easy to modulate. Not overly grabby or bitey with the CT 1521 pads installed. I had put the M4 pads in the M240ix briefly and the brakes immediately had a significant increase in initial bite. Harder to modulate as well. Switched to the CT 1521 and had lower initial bite than stock and easy to modulate.

Wow. 2-3 month wait time? Now that’s a long manufacturing time. I wonder if you could find Winmax pads in stock somewhere?

What’s the cost of P3 vs. P2 pads? I tried running PFC 05 compound pads in my e46 M3 all track season one year and I couldn’t take the squealing. My wife was also embarrassed to ride in the car with me. I ended up putting the R4S pads in and swapping in the PFC 05 pads before a track weekend.

Edit: looked up the price of P3 pads on Paragon’s website. $404 for F and R pads. Getting closer to the cost of CT pads. Porterfield R4S pads are $320 for F and R pads.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

My M4 is definitely not over boosted. Essex/AP CP9668/CP9449 calipers with PFC 11 race compound are not grabby or bitey. The PFC 11 compound has more initial bite than stock pads and they are not an on/off switch. Easy to modulate. Not overly grabby or bitey with the CT 1521 pads installed. I had put the M4 pads in the M240ix briefly and the brakes immediately had a significant increase in initial bite. Harder to modulate as well. Switched to the CT 1521 and had lower initial bite than stock and easy to modulate.

Wow. 2-3 month wait time? Now that’s a long manufacturing time. I wonder if you could find Winmax pads in stock somewhere?

What’s the cost of P3 vs. P2 pads? I tried running PFC 05 compound pads in my e46 M3 all track season one year and I couldn’t take the squealing. My wife was also embarrassed to ride in the car with me. I ended up putting the R4S pads in and swapping in the PFC 05 pads before a track weekend.

Edit: looked up the price of P3 pads on Paragon’s website. $404 for F and R pads. Getting closer to the cost of CT pads. Porterfield R4S pads are $320 for F and R pads.

Yeah I was wondering if it was the possibility of being over boosted because I did notice that the coding makes the brakes feel more linear and not over blown out of proportion.

Yeah 2-3 months, it's pretty long, maybe because they only get orders in every few months to ensure shipping isnt insane? I would assume these come by boat, because brake pads are heavy. A set of 4 pads have some weigh to them. So ordering hundreds of pads will get really heavy really quick. I looked at winmax pads but didn't find any bmw specific dealers, I saw a lot of European dealers and one in NA but I've never heard of them before so I don't know if they're reputable or if I'm going to lose my money.


The P3 is a bit more money than the P2, but in a different category. But I'm excited to try them out this summer, and I'll write up a review in 2 parts. Initial impression, pictures of the pads, then a follow up of brake dust. Or I'll publish it really late and have it all in one go.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by F87source

Yeah I was wondering if it was the possibility of being over boosted because I did notice that the coding makes the brakes feel more linear and not over blown out of proportion.

Yeah 2-3 months, it's pretty long, maybe because they only get orders in every few months to ensure shipping isnt insane? I would assume these come by boat, because brake pads are heavy. A set of 4 pads have some weigh to them. So ordering hundreds of pads will get really heavy really quick. I looked at winmax pads but didn't find any bmw specific dealers, I saw a lot of European dealers and one in NA but I've never heard of them before so I don't know if they're reputable or if I'm going to lose my money.


The P3 is a bit more money than the P2, but in a different category. But I'm excited to try them out this summer, and I'll write up a review in 2 parts. Initial impression, pictures of the pads, then a follow up of brake dust. Or I'll publish it really late and have it all in one go.

My brakes definitely do not feel over boosted with the Essex/AP racing brake kit with CT 1521 pads as well as the PFC 11 pads. I don’t recall the stock blue setup feeling over boosted either but it’s been six years since I last used the stock brakes on the M4.

I did a quick search for Winmax F82 pads and got a hit with twelve different pad options from £204-421 for F and £184-321 for R. The W6.5 is their all around option with good cold bite and they also suggest the W3 and W4 as working well from cold temps. I wonder if there’s a way to correlate Paragon pad options with Winmax pad options?

P3s definitely are a different pad option from the P2s. Porterfield’s R4S are competitively priced and have low dust-good street performance. Curious to see how the P3s turn out.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

My brakes definitely do not feel over boosted with the Essex/AP racing brake kit with CT 1521 pads as well as the PFC 11 pads. I don’t recall the stock blue setup feeling over boosted either but it’s been six years since I last used the stock brakes on the M4.

I did a quick search for Winmax F82 pads and got a hit with twelve different pad options from £204-421 for F and £184-321 for R. The W6.5 is their all around option with good cold bite and they also suggest the W3 and W4 as working well from cold temps. I wonder if there’s a way to correlate Paragon pad options with Winmax pad options?

P3s definitely are a different pad option from the P2s. Porterfield’s R4S are competitively priced and have low dust-good street performance. Curious to see how the P3s turn out.

The problem with shipping from Europe is the insane shipping costs since brake pads are pretty heavy, and then the import taxes and duty fees which is also insane, and then brokerage fees if you don't self clear.

The friction curves would be the best bet of correlation, I matched the P2 and P3 to the w2 and w3 for instance. But Paragon doesn't have them all.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by F87source

The problem with shipping from Europe is the insane shipping costs since brake pads are pretty heavy, and then the import taxes and duty fees which is also insane, and then brokerage fees if you don't self clear.

The friction curves would be the best bet of correlation, I matched the P2 and P3 to the w2 and w3 for instance. But Paragon doesn't have them all.

I have ordered plenty of parts from Europe and I’ve rarely had to pay import taxes and duty fees. For example, the Karbonius CF plenum for the e92 M3 was $88. It was zero for do88 e92 M3 engine and DCT coolers/radiator as well as the Slon DCT oil pan. Are you positive the taxes and duty fees on brake pads are insane?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I have ordered plenty of parts from Europe and I’ve rarely had to pay import taxes and duty fees. For example, the Karbonius CF plenum for the e92 M3 was $88. It was zero for do88 e92 M3 engine and DCT coolers/radiator as well as the Slon DCT oil pan. Are you positive the taxes and duty fees on brake pads are insane?

It largely depends on the value your seller declares for customs, but for me I've purchased a lot of stuff from the US (fcp euro and so on) and I've always had to pay duty, taxes, and brokerage fees. The duties and taxes are really cheap because they're based on value - untaxed value (iirc), it's the shipping fees and brokerage fees that are insane. Because heavy and large packages aren't exactly cheap to ship long distances, and if you don't self-clear your package ups or FedEx will do it for you and brokerage fees in those cases are nuts. Brokerage fees for all my stuff coming from the US costs more than the shipping itself, and I can't always self-clear because I live so far from the air port which is where my CBSA location is.

Most people living in the US won't understand this because you guys are lucky enough to have vendors that sell everything and rarely need to purchase outside the US, but intra country shipments don't get charged brokerage fees generally Americans love UPS and FedEx. but for me whenever I purchase across borders (which is very common for Canadians) these couriers always charge brokerage fees because they have to clear the package. So my advice is if you purchase across borders use the government mail service so USPS, Canada post, royal mail etc. the reason why is the government doesn't charge the government (itself), so the government of your country isn't going to charge your government mail service nor are they going to make it extremely difficult to clear customs, your customs may even clear it for your government mail service, and the government mail service won't charge you to clear customs as it's part of their job. The result is if you use government mail services you won't have to pay brokerage fees, just taxes and duties. And that's why I always try to use USPS and Canada post if applicable.


So if you purchase from over seas use thag country's mail service because they hand it over to your government's mail service. So if I buy from the USA I will try and choose USPS, and they'll hand it over to Canada post. If I buy from the UK I'll choose royal mail and they'll hand it over to Canada post etc. I've never had to pay brokerage fees that way. Shipping can still be expensive though, and that's why I'd still like Paragon to stock the pads.

[M3SQRD]

Interesting. It sounds absolutely terrible to have to purchase any part outside of Canada.

The Karbonius V8 CF plenum, airbox cover and elbow was shipped in a pretty large box and came via DHL. Actually, all of the parts I’ve ordered have shipped via DHL. No taxes and duties and no brokerage fees. I know the declared value of the Karbonius plenum was > $2k usd and I got hit with a $88 fee from DHL.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Interesting. It sounds absolutely terrible to have to purchase any part outside of Canada.

The Karbonius V8 CF plenum, airbox cover and elbow was shipped in a pretty large box and came via DHL. Actually, all of the parts I’ve ordered have shipped via DHL. No taxes and duties and no brokerage fees. I know the declared value of the Karbonius plenum was > $2k usd and I got hit with a $88 fee from DHL.

Yeah it sucks lol, but it's avoidable if the vendor has USPS as an option. Interesting, maybe that $88 fee covered your charges? I know sometime if you pay for more expensive shipping options they coverage brokerage fees. So that could also be it, but the problem is for example if you're buying oil filters I don't want to pay more than the oil filters for shipping.

[M3SQRD]

Decided to check on shipping cost of the W2 F and R pads…£68 from FedEx

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Decided to check on shipping cost of the W2 F and R pads…£68 from FedEx

Holy crap that's $115.73 CAD or $86.68 USD, and that's why I want Paragon to stock these things. Imagine duty fees, taxes, and brokerage fees on top. That might be $200 CAD total to ship these pads in, and all of a sudden that's almost a second set of pads.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by F87source

Holy crap that's $115.73 CAD or $86.68 USD, and that's why I want Paragon to stock these things. Imagine duty fees, taxes, and brokerage fees on top. That might be $200 CAD total to ship these pads in, and all of a sudden that's almost a second set of pads.

Yeah, you’d have to be desperate for a set of street pads to pay these prices…

[EezyBeezy]

In the market for new brake pads for my wife's daily F80.

Are the P2's comparable to oem pads in terms of braking performance?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Yeah, you’d have to be desperate for a set of street pads to pay these prices…

Yeah agreed, that's why I hope Paragon stocks them, it should bring prices down to levels that are way more competitive than the competition. Otherwise there's no point trying to import winmax pads

Originally Posted by EezyBeezy

In the market for new brake pads for my wife's daily F80.

Are the P2's comparable to oem pads in terms of braking performance?

I believe so based on the friction data and the testimony of the frs community, but the difference is it should have little to no brake dust production. The only problem is we don't have them available yet so enough people have to express interest in order for Paragon to stock some.