M3 / M4 V6 Speculation

[Dr. Sound]

Hello again!

Without reference to any confirmed, former shown oder speculated engine layout I can tell you the follwing:

I got to know plenty firsthand statements given by test drivers, supplier employees and BMW engineers (who never ever would confirm any engine layout by the way) ... but all the statements do contain the same message:

>>The F80 drives utterly awesome!
It has the torque of a monster diesel at low revs, it has the response characteristics of a natural aspirated, cat chasing PitBull at mid and high revs and it revs as high as no forced induction engine did before. (Execpt supercars like MP12C)
The sound always is described als serious and Power-Boat like!
The power, the engine delivers, is extraordinary and all you show when you get out of the F80 after a hot ride, is a big, big grin, lasting for several hours! <<

This exactly it is, what they tell you, and this is all they are allowed to tell you.
But I´m shure they don´t lie! Why should they?
The same story was told too often from very different and independent sources!

Please make your own conclusion how far this can be achieved with an conventional Twinturbo I6 based on a N5X!

I did...

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

Please make your own conclusion how far this can be achieved with an conventional Twinturbo I6 based on a N5X!

Well with the now-legendary RB26DETT and 2JZ-GTE whose credentials were established going on twenty years ago now I believe, I've never had any problem accepting that BMW - arguably the modern-day master of the I6 - has every ability to advance the state of the art and build an engine to take its place aside these two. Of course, they've already done some amazing things with the N54, N55, and N57, but I suspect the S55 will be the one that is remembered a decade down the line. The tuner crowd is going to go bananas over this engine.

There are some great turbocharged V6s too - the contemporary GTR and the old Jaguar XJ220 supercar have achieved amazing things. But by no means does the turbocharged I6 need to take a back seat. It just needs a chance to benefit from all of the advancements we've seen since the last time they were being used in high performance automobiles.

And by the way I don't see the words "conventional twin-turbo" in the quotes you are attributing to the test engineers (which makes sense since they would not be likely to reveal that information either) so what I see here is you forming a conclusion based on an arbitrary hypothesis.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

Please make your own conclusion how far this can be achieved with an conventional Twinturbo I6 based on a N5X!

I did...

What exactly do you mean by "conventional TT I6"?

Why should the I6 be limited to be "conventional" (whatever that means) and the V6 not?

What are the engineering basis for less power from a I6 TT than a V6 TT?

Not saying that the M3 will have a I6 for sure, but your comments and quotes from BMW engineers, doesn't eliminate neither a I6 or a V6. Both engine concepts should be able to deliver the characteristics you quote.

As a comparison, see how far BMW has taken the I6 Diesel in the N57 M50d TriTurbo engine. They don't have to go with a V6 like Audi has.

Obviously the V6 has packaging and weight distribution advantages over the I6

[Dr. Sound]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

But by no means does the turbocharged I6 need to take a back seat. It just needs a chance to benefit from all of the advancements we've seen since the last time they were being used in high performance automobiles

I totally agree with you!
If the M-GmbH would be allowed to build the perfect FI inline six- they surely will be able to do so!
It would rev like no other, would respond like no other, have mpg like cars half the power and it would be the most emotional engine anyone could imagine!
A winner for decades!

The only problem is: They are not allowed to do so!
For achieving these qualities you have to start with a white sheet of paper!
Unthinkable for an M3 engine today!

My thoughts -which are quite certain imho- look like this:
We do know some "soft facts" about the "S55" engine by now (power, drivability, responsiveness, the revving ability, rumored capacity >3l) which lead to only one conclusion:
If inline 6- all these attributes only would be achievable with the "white paper engine" - NOT on basis any "N-whatever"!
This is the key fact!!!!
And white paper engineering is very, very unusual today!

Nothing more or less I have to say to this point at issue!

Greetings from GOG!
Ingo

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by Boss330

What exactly do you mean by "conventional TT I6"?

Why should the I6 be limited to be "conventional" (whatever that means) and the V6 not?

What are the engineering basis for less power from a I6 TT than a V6 TT?

Not saying that the M3 will have a I6 for sure, but your comments and quotes from BMW engineers, doesn't eliminate neither a I6 or a V6. Both engine concepts should be able to deliver the characteristics you quote.

As a comparison, see how far BMW has taken the I6 Diesel in the N57 M50d TriTurbo engine. They don't have to go with a V6 like Audi has.

Obviously the V6 has packaging and weight distribution advantages over the I6

Dr.Sound speaks about an I6 based on an N54/55-Block with its big stroke layout ... which limited its development potential especially in high rev terms ... and with the roumored bigger displacement - possible only over the stroke - this would get even worse / more impossible.

An/the V6 - based on the S63Tü - gets this displacement with an smaller stroke even as the base N54/55.

I think if the M-GmbH will bring the M3/M4 in GT-R regions, they must choose the V6, not alone for technical reasons, but also because of packaging problems to reach an 50/50 balance when they in the same time make the car lighter in the trunk section ... simple because the same problems Nissan descides to break the great I6 tradition with the GT-R.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

I totally agree with you!
If the M-GmbH would be allowed to build the perfect FI inline six- they surely will be able to do so!
It would rev like no other, would respond like no other, have mpg like cars half the power and it would be the most emotional engine anyone could imagine!
A winner for decades!

The only problem is: They are not allowed to do so!
For achieving these qualities you have to start with a white sheet of paper!
Unthinkable for an M3 engine today!

You're logic is not passing my sniff test.

- The S54 was based upon the pre-existing M50/M52/M54, yet it was able to achieve about 100hp more than the premier series engine, rev to 8000RPM, and also achieved over 100hp/L.

- So M can't build a ground-up I6, yet they were given the green light to build a 90 degree V6 out of a V8, even where there is a perfectly good corporate six available? Oh, and this Frankenstein V6 is supposed to have more potential than the I6 even though it too is not a "clean sheet" design either?

Originally Posted by Uli_HH

I think if the M-GmbH will bring the M3/M4 in GT-R regions...

But they won't because that is not the goal. It's not a $100k super car.

That said - a GTR weighs about 3800lbs, correct? So M does not need ~600hp, or whatever the latest Nismo Z-Tune Apple Blossom edition is supposed to achieve in power.

[Dr. Sound]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

- So M can't build a ground-up I6, yet they were given the green light to build a 90 degree V6 out of a V8, even where there is a perfectly good corporate six available? Oh, and this Frankenstein V6 is supposed to have more potential than the I6 even though it too is not a "clean sheet" design either?

I'm shure you did not want to express this in your argumentation... but you're absolutely right!
For achieving these ambitious goals a V6 would be the more intelligent, more obvious and more sensible way to do it!

Unfortunately the main key fact nobody discussed yet:
If we get a capacity beyond 3L (and I was told so, so were many other in Germany with good contacts into the M/GmbH), we won't get an I6! We won't get a turbocharged S54...
Quite simple, isn't it?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

I'm shure you did not want to express this in your argumentation... but you're absolutely right!

I made no assertion - I just posed questions.

For achieving these ambitious goals a V6 would be the more intelligent, more obvious and more sensible way to do it!

Not at all. You have made no effort to support that claim with any evidence. It is pure speculation.

Unfortunately the main key fact nobody discussed yet:
If we get a capacity beyond 3L (and I was told so, so were many other in Germany with good contacts into the M/GmbH), we won't get an I6! We won't get a turbocharged S54...
Quite simple, isn't it?

More unsubstantiated theory.

Even when an S55 is officially announced as an I6, you guys are going to claim there are six tiny V6 engines hidden inside, one in each cylinder. Oh and these V6s will de derived from the V8s of miniature M5s that BMW built to help some little German mice move their stolen cheese more efficiently through the walls of a Biere garden.

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

You're logic is not passing my sniff test.

- The S54 was based upon the pre-existing M50/M52/M54, yet it was able to achieve about 100hp more than the premier series engine, rev to 8000RPM, and also achieved over 100hp/L.

- So M can't build a ground-up I6, yet they were given the green light to build a 90 degree V6 out of a V8, even where there is a perfectly good corporate six available? Oh, and this Frankenstein V6 is supposed to have more potential than the I6 even though it too is not a "clean sheet" design either?

But the S54 is long time history and the N54/55 has nothing to do with this great engine ... the bore of the N54/55 and all recent or future BMW I6 (B58) is 84mm and 3mm smaller than the S54, so that you need an stroke from >10mm to reach an displacement of 3.3ltr. (as rumored in germany) out of an N54/55 ... nearly impossible toi combine HDZ and highpressure turbos with such an stroke.

Only existing BMW possibility for such an engine as I6 is to use really the old S54 block ... but this is very heavy and more costly than any V6 based on the S63Tü ... and brings you also wide away from the 50/50 balance

Originally Posted by mkoesel

But they won't because that is not the goal. It's not a $100k super car.

That said - a GTR weighs about 3800lbs, correct? So M does not need ~600hp, or whatever the latest Nismo Z-Tune Apple Blossom edition is supposed to achieve in power.

With an weight of below 3.300lbs an power output of 450hp (on the paper!), the lightest chassis and suspension ever build in an car like M3/M4 and an really intelligent electronical driven mechanial LSD much is possible ... also NOS-Laptimes in the near region of GT2 or GT-R.

[Dr. Sound]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Even when an S55 is officially announced as an I6, you guys are going to claim there are six tiny V6 engines hidden inside, one in each cylinder. Oh and these V6s will de derived from the V8s of miniature M5s that BMW built to help some little German mice move their stolen cheese more efficiently through the walls of a Biere garden.

Sorry, this is no discussion, this is pure polemic.
Not the german way!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Uli_HH

But the S54 is longtime history and the N54/55 has nothing to do with this great engine ... the bore of the N54/55 and all recent or future BMW I6 (B58) is 84mm and 3mm smaller than the S54, so that you need an stroke from >10mm to reach an displacement of 3.3ltr. (as rumored in germany) out of an N54/55 ... nearly impossible toi combine HDZ and highpressure turbos with such an stroke.

Only existing BMW possibility for such an engine as I6 is to use really the old S54 block ... but this is very heavy and more costly than any V6 based on the S63Tü ... and brings you also wide away from the 50/50 balance

You guys aren't bringing anything new to the table. We've been over all of this before. Where is your evidence? The OP at least tried to back up his claim with something tangible. If you have something to present, do so. Otherwise it is the same old rhetoric. We're not getting into a big debate again.

... also NOS-Laptimes in the near region of GT2 or GT-R.

Keep dreaming.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

Sorry, this is no discussion, this is pure polemic.
Not the german way!

In no way have you established that a N55-based multi-turbo 3L I6 cannot suitably power the F8x.

[Uli_HH]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

In no way have you established that a N55-based multi-turbo 3L I6 cannot suitably power the F8x.

THAT HAS NOBODY SAID !!!

Only that an N55-based S55 with 3.3ltr. as rumored in german forums and 8.000U/min Redline is impossible ... and also that by an 3.0ltr.S55 8.000U/min Redline are not easy to reach.

[Dr. Sound]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

In no way have you established that a N55-based multi-turbo 3L I6 cannot suitably power the F8x.

I´m glad to see you´re still interested in a technical discussion!
No, I don´t think a multiturbo I6 with 3 liters won´t suit the F80 properly- it would, indeed!
And I´m sure this is (was) an option, BMW followed (temporarily)!

I´m just trying to say a V6, based on an existing extraordinary piece of engineering (S63 TÜ) and using its innovations, is the easier and more obvious way to achieve an extremly high revving and very good responding forced induction engine!

Managing a 3L N5X revving near to 8.000 RPM combined with BMW reliability standards surely is a tough job... increasing the capacity to 3,3 Liters, mainly by extending the stroke, will nearly be a feat of magic!

If they did this successfully, they will have my greatest respect for ever! But I can´t believe it for obvious reasons!

Please tell me your point of view concerning these thoughts!

[CanAutM3]

Interresting how the rumors for an I6 are mostly being pushed from American posters while the rumors for a V6 are mostly coming from German posters

I am not assuming anything here. Both approaches are possible.

[fuddman]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

Sorry, this is no discussion, this is pure polemic.
Not the german way!

Polemic? No, no
Sarcasm, yes. He's likely from the Bronx.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sound

I´m glad to see you´re still interested in a technical discussion!
No, I don´t think a multiturbo I6 with 3 liters won´t suit the F80 properly- it would, indeed!
And I´m sure this is (was) an option, BMW followed (temporarily)!

I´m just trying to say a V6, based on an existing extraordinary piece of engineering (S63 TÜ) and using its innovations, is the easier and more obvious way to achieve an extremly high revving and very good responding forced induction engine!

Managing a 3L N5X revving near to 8.000 RPM combined with BMW reliability standards surely is a tough job... increasing the capacity to 3,3 Liters, mainly by extending the stroke, will nearly be a feat of magic!

If they did this successfully, they will have my greatest respect for ever! But I can´t believe it for obvious reasons!

Please tell me your point of view concerning these thoughts!

If I understand your train of thought correctly, your conclusion towards a V6 is mostly based on the 3,2-3,3L displacement assumption.

Can you offer more background to this assumption?

Others have demonstrated that 450hp could easily be achieved with 3,0L in terms of specific power. Why would this new ///M engine need more displacement to achieve the power goals?

I am not trying to disclaim what you are saying since I also believe the V6 is a viable scenario. If you could provide stronger backing to the claim of increased displacement, it would bring more credibility to the V6 possibility.

Servus aus Kanada

[ILC32]

I have no current inside information whatsoever, so I cannot contribute anything substantive, unfortunately.

Speculation is fun, though, so here are my two cents:

I agree with Dr. Sound and others that the existence of the publication-quality engine bay photo from 2012 is quite odd given how long ago the photo was published, and how secretive BMW has been about the car since that time.

I think there are reasons BMW would want to conceal for as long as possible its chosen engine configuration from the competition. I cannot think of any reasons BMW would want its competitors to know in 2012 what engine configuration will be used in its top performance car to be released in 2014.

Some might point to the E90 and the fact that the car would use a V8 was known long before release of the car. That is true, but at the time in my opinion it was in BMW's interest to allow the public to know that it had an answer in store to the V8s then in use by MB and Audi.

This is a different environment. Each of the manufacturers is struggling to identify the optimal engine package balancing performance against emotion, cost and efficiency, with efficiency getting far more importance in the calculus than in the past. So far, I'm not sure a consensus has been reached as to the best solution. BMW may well beleive it has the solution, and for that reason it may not want to share that solution with its competitors until the last possible moment.

As Swamp has pointed out, there is certainly precedent for M to use a cut-down version of the then-current M5 engine in the M3. This occurred not only with the E90/E90 M derivatives, but also with the E30/E28(?) M3 and M5.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

More unsubstantiated theory.

Even when an S55 is officially announced as an I6, you guys are going to claim there are six tiny V6 engines hidden inside, one in each cylinder. Oh and these V6s will de derived from the V8s of miniature M5s that BMW built to help some little German mice move their stolen cheese more efficiently through the walls of a Biere garden.

You need to keep an open mind here. If I remember correctly, you were very quick in dissmissing the V6 as a possibility when the first rumors came out. Don't let pride get in the way .

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=32

[Alessandro]

what about the Rumors with the KERS beeing on the M3/4

[Dr. Sound]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Others have demonstrated that 450hp could easily be achieved with 3,0L in terms of specific power.
Why would this new ///M engine need more displacement to achieve the power goals?

Hello!

There are several reasons for a 3,0L beeing a little too undersized for the ambitious goals BMW announced!

First, we have to expect 440-450 hp on paper and a little more in real.
Any N5X based 3L would operate permanently at its limit.

Second, the reliability standards of BMW are so high, none of the well known, heavily tuned N54/55 would ever pass the tests! Even with the standard 7200 RPM Limit!
I do know this because BMW did such tests with "impressive" results!
Imagine the death valley tests, bad gas-quality tests, endurance-testing on Nordschleife (like in the last days f.e with 30°C air temp.) and so on!
The "S55" has to pass all those tests with lots of safety margin!

Third, BMW is planning a Competition- and a Performance-Package... last one containing some more Power. Hardly implementable on the 3L N5X basis!

Fourth, BMW has realized, for a high acceptance it will be helpful to contrast the M3 pleasantly from the 335i (esp. Performance, you all know the pics!)
The M5 F10 sales desaster should not happen again!

Fifth, I´ve been told so by a very credible person inside M-GmbH, the S55, not mentioning the layout, will have "little" more than 3 Liters! Quote!
And I´m not the only one told so!

Anyway, I´m sure, today in in one week we all will be a lot wiser and some of you will probably be shaken to your foundations... but you won´t be disappointed at the end...I promise!

Regards, Ingo

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You need to keep an open mind here. If I remember correctly, you were very quick in dissmissing the V6 as a possibility when the first rumors came out. Don't let pride get in the way .

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=32

No need to remind me - I added a link to that thread earlier in my first post largely to highlight my position as well as that of others.

But you should hit the search function and brush up on you're history. That thread was not the first source of the rumors. We had discussed the V6 a number of times since it was first mentioned in an interview (with whom I forget - may have been Nitschke) long before. I have always considered it a red herring and still do. We'll know soon. If I am wrong you can expect me to admit it very publicly and give props to those who may have had more accurate predictions.