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      11-20-2013, 01:53 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
You forget that the production of the M engines in the "Sondermotorenbau" make much of the M-Spirit ... much like the AMG credo "engine build by one person"

Also cheap watches shows the right time, but most technic inspired people would choose an Rolex, Omega, Breitling ... if they habe the money to buy one. Same issue with the new M3/M4 ... going back from an Breitling like S65 to an cheaper more standard S55 engine is an bad move for many real M fans ... also when the S55 fulfil the needed power demands ... and don't forget great torque was never an part of THW real M spirit !!!
The E34 M5 were handbuild, but that's gone, the M are now on the usual factories on the usual supply lines.
Now the engines are not beeing build in the "correct" factories.
My guess is that you will not experience this yourself, but you loose some braging rights along side with it.
If that is your main importance, maybe you should look at your priorities?
Choose an AMG?
As for this new icon, i reckon M have put the money where poeple in here have been wanting for ages, lower weight, and better at cornering.
I think it's going to be a beast, and with the right engine for the job, the I6!
Can't wait to hear more about it.
Farewell to the E9* M3, welcome to the new, improved M3/4!
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      11-20-2013, 03:44 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blipit_
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
I can't believe people would pass up on this car because of a 300-400 RPM difference in redline.

That's splitting hairs.
If it is a fraction over 7,500 as most reports have made. Difference is ~900 rpm. That will make for very different engine characteristics from the S65.

This turbo M3/M4 will drive very different from the E9x M3. As someone pointed out earlier, what is the point if the power drops off up top like most turbo engines. You will be short shifting anyways.
Because torque is torque and all of a sudden you don't give a rats ass about RPM because you now have useable power delivery in every situation. There is nothing like Boost!
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      11-20-2013, 06:03 AM   #113
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The new M4 is really a step forward and saving that good amount of weight has taken the car to a higher category.
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      11-20-2013, 07:26 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
+1

So one thing that makes a driver more connected to the car and brings confidence on track or off track during hard driving is taken off in a high performance car in name of 3kg saving.

So he is justifying 3kg on car that is loaded with tons of things that are frivolous enough to not only add weight but make you wonder why??

Sir, how about leaving that 3 Kg on the car so we can actually enjoy driving our high performance cars. Do not make an M car into a PS4 simulator in name of the mass of two grocery bags.

If you were that concerned about 3 kg then you guys should have used CF hood, CF trunk, CF bumpers front and rear.

So the car would have cost 10-15k more, and the first asshole that hit your rear at a stop would cause some thousands $ damage due to CF bumper!

The electric steering was used to keep development cost down, it's so simple don't focus on the 3 kg saved, that's a collateral thing.
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      11-20-2013, 08:32 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Can't believe they are using taller ratios in DCT on the M3/4 vs the 5/6 .
They are not! They will use the DCT from the M5/M6 which has longer ratios than the E9x DCT. Not longer ratios than the M5/M6 DCT...
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      11-20-2013, 08:43 AM   #116
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      11-20-2013, 09:03 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savory View Post
2 things bother me. The longer gear ratios compared to the M5/M6 DCT, which are already pretty long, and the fact that the S55 isn't built under M's control. Is M cost cutting, or do they not feel the motor is up to par with their standards? Other than that, reviews could not come any sooner. Let's release these things!
They are not! They will use the DCT from the M5/M6 which has longer ratios than the E9x DCT. Not longer ratios than the M5/M6 DCT...
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      11-20-2013, 09:07 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayani_1 View Post
+1

So one thing that makes a driver more connected to the car and brings confidence on track or off track during hard driving is taken off in a high performance car in name of 3kg saving.

So he is justifying 3kg on car that is loaded with tons of things that are frivolous enough to not only add weight but make you wonder why??

Sir, how about leaving that 3 Kg on the car so we can actually enjoy driving our high performance cars. Do not make an M car into a PS4 simulator in name of the mass of two grocery bags.

If you were that concerned about 3 kg then you guys should have used CF hood, CF trunk, CF bumpers front and rear.
The M4 HAS a CF trunk

And maybe we should try the steering and how it feels before judging it as useless...

If you read the other story from the Australian mag you will get some more insight from Biermann on their thoughts on the steering
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      11-20-2013, 10:49 AM   #119
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For reference to those who are prone to forgetting:

- History is strewn with far more terrible hydraulically assisted steering systems than good ones.

- The e39 m5 (and 540i for that matter) had a recirculating ball system that was, to put a fine point on it, numb. The f8x m3/m4 is now the same size as the "legendary" e39 m5. Based upon my driving of f30s, their base model steering is already better than an e39 m5. Let's actually see what the f8x feels like before smacking at it.

- 3kg is 3kg, but more importantly by not having to develop a wholly new steering system they saved money to spend elsewhere. Where did it go? We don't know. CF Driveshaft? Better turbos? Additional cooling? The point is that sticking with a EPS system saved 3kg AND allowed them to spend more time and money on something else.

- If they had created a hydraulically assisted PS steering, it may have sucked. The presumption is that it would have been amazing. That is a presumption, since no such system currently exists for this chassis.
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      11-20-2013, 11:37 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
For reference to those who are prone to forgetting:

- History is strewn with far more terrible hydraulically assisted steering systems than good ones.

- The e39 m5 (and 540i for that matter) had a recirculating ball system that was, to put a fine point on it, numb. The f8x m3/m4 is now the same size as the "legendary" e39 m5. Based upon my driving of f30s, their base model steering is already better than an e39 m5. Let's actually see what the f8x feels like before smacking at it.

- 3kg is 3kg, but more importantly by not having to develop a wholly new steering system they saved money to spend elsewhere. Where did it go? We don't know. CF Driveshaft? Better turbos? Additional cooling? The point is that sticking with a EPS system saved 3kg AND allowed them to spend more time and money on something else.

- If they had created a hydraulically assisted PS steering, it may have sucked. The presumption is that it would have been amazing. That is a presumption, since no such system currently exists for this chassis.
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      11-20-2013, 12:16 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
the power steering comments are idiotic. please do not insult our intelligence by claiming that a 3kg weight loss is relevant in deciding to go electric over hydraulic. everyone knows it is for fuel economy purposes, and cost saving since its already on the standard 3 series. it is what it is, we will see if they can dial it in effectively
I think it will be all right. The Honda S2000 has EPS, and there aren't/weren't many complaints about it.
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      11-20-2013, 12:58 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
I think it will be all right. The Honda S2000 has EPS, and there aren't/weren't many complaints about it.
Shhh, don't let reality dissuade people from irrational and poorly founded fears!
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      11-20-2013, 01:04 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
- 3kg is 3kg, but more importantly by not having to develop a wholly new steering system they saved money to spend elsewhere. Where did it go? We don't know. CF Driveshaft? Better turbos? Additional cooling? The point is that sticking with a EPS system saved 3kg AND allowed them to spend more time and money on something else.
while I don't disagree with most of your points, I think the answer to this question is that the money went into BMW's pockets (or to its shareholders, to be more precise). who says they need to reinvest that profit re-engineering other parts of the car? it seems obvious to a lot of people that BMW is cashing in on the M brand with the stupid M model parts they offer everywhere (just like Audi's S-line and Mercedes' AMG parts). it's a good strategy for short-term profits, but time will show where the value of the M brand is heading.
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      11-20-2013, 01:09 PM   #124
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Can't wait to drive the car on the track. The fact that the diff is coming out of the M5/6, is really fantastic news. It is a marvel in the M5...really looking forward to this car.
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      11-20-2013, 01:21 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M54ccibo View Post
Can't wait to drive the car on the track. The fact that the diff is coming out of the M5/6, is really fantastic news. It is a marvel in the M5...really looking forward to this car.
Have you enjoyed your M5?
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      11-20-2013, 01:38 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Shhh, don't let reality dissuade people from irrational and poorly founded fears!
Please

My point is that the 3kg weight savings is not a relevent factor in WHY they switched to eps. The real factors are money saving and gas mileage / efficiency.

I also hope the eps is well calibrated, just said that claiming a 3kg weight difference was a key factor in going to eps over hydraulic is BS.

Any other inferences to my comments are simply taken out of context. Like yours, for example.
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      11-20-2013, 01:45 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
while I don't disagree with most of your points, I think the answer to this question is that the money went into BMW's pockets (or to its shareholders, to be more precise). who says they need to reinvest that profit re-engineering other parts of the car? it seems obvious to a lot of people that BMW is cashing in on the M brand with the stupid M model parts they offer everywhere (just like Audi's S-line and Mercedes' AMG parts). it's a good strategy for short-term profits, but time will show where the value of the M brand is heading.
I heard on the news yesterday that Porsche accounts for only 1 in 60 sold cars from the VW group while Porsche accounts for 1/4 of the groups profits. This is likely what BMW is eyeing with the M cars, we have been spoilt with exotic level of engineering to mass market car pricing from M, this seems to end here. We will get same or better level of performance but cost cutting will be also be evident with more mainstream engine tech and build processes since the other option of charging GT3 money for what came cheap up until now isn't really going to work.
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      11-20-2013, 02:32 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
Please

My point is that the 3kg weight savings is not a relevent factor in WHY they switched to eps. The real factors are money saving and gas mileage / efficiency.

I also hope the eps is well calibrated, just said that claiming a 3kg weight difference was a key factor in going to eps over hydraulic is BS.

Any other inferences to my comments are simply taken out of context. Like yours, for example.
Kenny,

Not sure why you think I was aiming that comment at you specifically. Perhaps you took me...gasp...out of context and thought it was focused at you?
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      11-20-2013, 02:43 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
Please

My point is that the 3kg weight savings is not a relevent factor in WHY they switched to eps. The real factors are money saving and gas mileage / efficiency.

I also hope the eps is well calibrated, just said that claiming a 3kg weight difference was a key factor in going to eps over hydraulic is BS.

Any other inferences to my comments are simply taken out of context. Like yours, for example.
Coming from someone who insists on quoting Biermann's comments on EPS completely out of context and quoting only 1/3 of the reasons Biermann mentioned...

Can you point to where Biermann said that the 3kg weight save was a key factor in going EPS? Or maybe that is something you simply have taken out of context as well?
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      11-20-2013, 02:53 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Can't believe they are using taller ratios in DCT on the M3/4 vs the 5/6 .
They are not! They will use the DCT from the M5/M6 which has longer ratios than the E9x DCT. Not longer ratios than the M5/M6 DCT...
In your translation you said DCT from the M5/6 with longer ratios for better fuel consumption . That sure implies it has taller ratios than the M5/6 . Should be easy enough to figure out though once the final specs are released .
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      11-20-2013, 02:56 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
I think it will be all right. The Honda S2000 has EPS, and there aren't/weren't many complaints about it.
And, so does the 991 generation 911. Even in the GT3... And it has received quite good reviews.

EPS has traditionally been installed in main stream cars so far and it hasn't been a performance choice yet. Now that tech has evolved and they are able to get better steering feel it should be better suited to a enthusiast car.

Remember that EPS doesn't replace the steering linkages, it's just an assistance. Just like hydraulic power steering is. The HPS in a 1982 Cadilac isn't exactly renowned for it's steering feel or feedback. If someone has driven aToyota with HPS and felt that it was numb, maybe that is just as relevant to how the M3 steering will be as the relevance of the Cadilac steering is to the HPS in the E9x M3?
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      11-20-2013, 02:58 PM   #132
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Looks like in the SA CAR article they say it's the same box with the same ratios as the M5/6 with a Shorter final drive ratio ! It will have a higher torque to the wheel vs weight ratio than the M5/6 !!!
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