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      11-21-2013, 11:08 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
The European emissions and fuel consumption cycles consist of Urban, Extra Urban and ...
Extra Urban? Is that like driving in the bad part of town with people shooting at you? LOL


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      11-22-2013, 04:31 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by ersin View Post
Extra Urban? Is that like driving in the bad part of town with people shooting at you? LOL


Cheers.
As far as I know, Extra means "beyond" or "not of". Just like Extra Terrestrial... (like in E.T. you know )

So a more correct and efficient use of the English language than calling it "Driving outside of the urban centre, but not quite just highway driving either"

Perhaps you thought Extra Urban meant "Even more Urban" or that Extra Terrestrial means "Even more Earthly"?
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      11-22-2013, 04:47 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
If I want to putput around and hypermile, an M3/M4 is not the car I would get. An M3/4 should be optimized for performance while still delivering decent fuel economy. The lower gears for performance with a top gear for economy would do the trick. IMO, an M3/4 should not be optimized for the very complex fuel economy test quoted above.
I don't think that it's an option for a company that wants to take care of it's public image to completely neglect fuel economy and emissions issues anymore (at least not in Europe). And manufacturers are bound by law to display consumption and emmissions data, with a green, yellow, red chart and you don't want to be in the red... So. it's a issue BMW just can't hide away from here. And that chart with colours is decided by the test cycle results...

And with European gas prices, the fuel consumption actually makes a big difference. Especially if the gap between the average car and the M car gets too large. If the M uses more than twice the gas as the daily driver, it becomes a concern for many...

But, agree. Fuel consumption isn't top priority for most M3/M4 buyers.

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      11-22-2013, 09:24 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Perhaps you thought Extra Urban meant "Even more Urban" or that Extra Terrestrial means "Even more Earthly"?
Yes, but it was a joke.


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      11-22-2013, 11:25 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by m3nari View Post
If it wasn't painted it would look Frankenstienish since it is a "carbon fiber reinforced plastic structure" not beautifully laid out carbon fiber layers.

I am still not sure why the sedan doesn't get a "carbon" trunk if the idea is all about weight savings ??
Oh Thanks for the clarification I understand now. There is a difference in fibers on the roof and the tunk. The roof is carbon fiber, and the trunk is CFRP.

Thank you
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      11-22-2013, 11:53 AM   #182
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CFRP vs. "carbon fiber"

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Originally Posted by jbockrd View Post
Oh Thanks for the clarification I understand now. There is a difference in fibers on the roof and the tunk. The roof is carbon fiber, and the trunk is CFRP.
No, if you read my post #16 and the attached pages you will see that the roof of the E92 is also CFRP.
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      11-22-2013, 08:41 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by jbockrd View Post
The roof is carbon fiber, and the trunk is CFRP.
Both the same material. But here's the difference ...

Think of what they did for the Corvette C7 roof. The base roof is CFRP, but painted. The top of the line roof is also CFRP, but is not painted. And it costs more. It costs more because people are going to see the fibers in the non-painted (or clear) CF roof so the weave and everything has to be perfect. If they paint it they can get by with a not so perfect weave. There should be no difference in function however.

And so, I believe this is the situation with the M4 trunk lid. If they leave it clear coated like the roof then it will need to be perfect, like the roof. And hence, cost more. So, why don't they paint the roof too? Probably because it may be a little easier to produce perfectly and probably because they might want to showcase it. I'm sure if you want a CF trunk lid then some third party will make one for you. At a premium price, of course.


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      11-23-2013, 03:25 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
Both the same material. But here's the difference ...

Think of what they did for the Corvette C7 roof. The base roof is CFRP, but painted. The top of the line roof is also CFRP, but is not painted. And it costs more. It costs more because people are going to see the fibers in the non-painted (or clear) CF roof so the weave and everything has to be perfect. If they paint it they can get by with a not so perfect weave. There should be no difference in function however.

And so, I believe this is the situation with the M4 trunk lid. If they leave it clear coated like the roof then it will need to be perfect, like the roof. And hence, cost more. So, why don't they paint the roof too? Probably because it may be a little easier to produce perfectly and probably because they might want to showcase it. I'm sure if you want a CF trunk lid then some third party will make one for you. At a premium price, of course.


Cheers.
Good info and seems to be spot on in explaining the differences
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      11-24-2013, 01:45 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by mpower3330
Anybody else annoyed about the S55 being assembled on the regular production line in Steyr instead of the special engine factory?
+1. That's the end of an era and the start of BMW going for more margin on M cars. Sad
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      11-25-2013, 10:51 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
Both the same material. But here's the difference ...

Think of what they did for the Corvette C7 roof. The base roof is CFRP, but painted. The top of the line roof is also CFRP, but is not painted. And it costs more. It costs more because people are going to see the fibers in the non-painted (or clear) CF roof so the weave and everything has to be perfect. If they paint it they can get by with a not so perfect weave. There should be no difference in function however.

And so, I believe this is the situation with the M4 trunk lid. If they leave it clear coated like the roof then it will need to be perfect, like the roof. And hence, cost more. So, why don't they paint the roof too? Probably because it may be a little easier to produce perfectly and probably because they might want to showcase it. I'm sure if you want a CF trunk lid then some third party will make one for you. At a premium price, of course.


Cheers.
Makes perfect sense now. I have a carbon roof on my M now and know what you are saying about the perfect weave pattern. I also don't think the trunk would look good with the bare CF pattern and needs to be painted so I'm happy with with what is offered. Thank you
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      11-25-2013, 02:21 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by barcius13 View Post
+1. That's the end of an era and the start of BMW going for more margin on M cars. Sad
I can personally ensure you that what made M engines special had nothing to do with being built in a different location than any other engine.
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      11-25-2013, 04:46 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by barcius13 View Post
+1. That's the end of an era and the start of BMW going for more margin on M cars. Sad
And to think BMW wants to run M as a business
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      11-25-2013, 04:50 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
And to think BMW wants to run M as a business
+1 Like someone just died. This is still an enthusiasts car. No one is ending an era. God they said the same thing with the V8 now the turbocharged engine. Why do we always focus on the glass half empty?
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      11-25-2013, 05:01 PM   #190
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Heard that the cup holders will be produced on the same facility as the regular 3/4-series?

Can anyone confirm if this is true. That will be a deal breaker for me

There might be some "romance" to a special plant. But can anyone tell what they did/does at the special plant that is different from the regular plant?

Last edited by Boss330; 11-25-2013 at 05:09 PM..
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      11-25-2013, 05:45 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Heard that the cup holders will be produced on the same facility as the regular 3/4-series?

Can anyone confirm if this is true. That will be a deal breaker for me

There might be some "romance" to a special plant. But can anyone tell what they did/does at the special plant that is different from the regular plant?
Actually there is. A specialized plant with dedicated resources can have a much more focused approach and can pay more attention to details such as tighter tolerances. There is more to it than just romance.

That being said, I am not implying that the S55 will be less of an engine because of it.
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      11-25-2013, 05:57 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Actually there is. A specialized plant with dedicated resources can have a much more focused approach and can pay more attention to details such as tighter tolerances. There is more to it than just romance.

That being said, I am not implying that the S55 will be less of an engine because of it.
True, my guess is that the FI M engines requires a lot less special machinery, competence, materials and experience to build. They can be built be the same staff and type of machinery as the rest of the engines and therefore large cost savings can be made by consolidation. Does it make the engine less special, absolutely. Does it automatically make it a bad or worse M engine, no.
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      11-25-2013, 09:38 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Heard that the cup holders will be produced on the same facility as the regular 3/4-series?

Can anyone confirm if this is true. That will be a deal breaker for me

There might be some "romance" to a special plant. But can anyone tell what they did/does at the special plant that is different from the regular plant?
Actually there is. A specialized plant with dedicated resources can have a much more focused approach and can pay more attention to details such as tighter tolerances. There is more to it than just romance.

That being said, I am not implying that the S55 will be less of an engine because of it.
Very well said. I actually own a 2012 M3 and never said anything bad about being a V8 instead of a I6, but the new generation of regular engines being used for the M3/M4 is just ridiculous. BMW has just taken cost cutting too far. M is for Marketing not Motorsport anymore. Sad
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      11-26-2013, 03:53 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Actually there is. A specialized plant with dedicated resources can have a much more focused approach and can pay more attention to details such as tighter tolerances. There is more to it than just romance.

That being said, I am not implying that the S55 will be less of an engine because of it.
I know how a special plant works when we are talking about a small dedicated number of engines. I have been at the Cosworth facility in the UK and seen the assembly process of their F1 engines and road going engines (Like some Aston Martin and Ford Cosworth Duratec engines). However those are fairly small numbers, like a few hundreds or maybe low thousands a year, the S65 was made in 60.000 so it's hardly hand built.

To me, that indicates that the S65 and other M engines are mass produced on a assembly line, not hand built. Then the Munich assembly line has to be better than the one at the Steyr plant to make a difference.

The Munich engine facility makes 300.000 engines per year and the Steyr plant makes just over 1.000.000 engines per year, but with "only" 300.000 of those engines being petrol engines, the rest being diesels.

Overvierw over BMW plants:
http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/0_0_www_bm...rte/index.html

BMW Munich plant:
http://www.bmw-plant-munich.com/lowb.../en/index.html

Quote:
The engine production has three different assembly lines: one each for the six and eight-cylinder engines plus one for the special engines. On this latter line, highly flexible processes produce straight six and V10 cylinder highperformance engines for the M3, M5 and the M6 as well as twelve-cylinder engines for the 760i and Rolls-Royce.
The above plant info hasn't been updated for some time it seems... And, looks like it's only the V12 of the above engines still being produced on the "Special assmbly line" at Munich.

BMW Steyr plant:
http://www.bmw-plant-steyr.com/

So far I haven't found any indications of such a low volume manufacturing process at Munich to compare with a true dedicated plant such as I witnessed at Cosworth's facility and assembly of Aston Martin engines etc. In fact it seems more like the special plant is there to assemble the "odd" engines that doesn't fit in the mainstream lines than it exists for higher tolerances etc.

This thread also shows that the S65 "sticks out like a sore thumb" compared to other BMW engines when it comes to clearances...

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838

Last edited by Boss330; 11-26-2013 at 04:32 AM..
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      11-26-2013, 04:50 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I know how a special plant works when we are talking about a small dedicated number of engines. I have been at the Cosworth facility in the UK and seen the assembly process of their F1 engines and road going engines (Like some Aston Martin and Ford Cosworth Duratec engines). However those are fairly small numbers, like a few thousand a year, the S65 was made in 60.000 so it's hardly hand built.

To me, that indicates that the S65 and other M engines are mass produced on a assembly line, not hand built. Then the assembly line has to be more specialised or better than the one at the Steyr plant to make a difference.

The Munich engine facility makes 300.000 engines per year and the Steyr plant makes just over 1.000.000 engines per year, but with "only" 300.000 of those engines being petrol engines, the rest being diesels.

Seems like it's only the V12 still being produced on the "Special assmbly line" at Munich.

Overvierw over BMW plants:
http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/0_0_www_bm...rte/index.html

BMW Munich plant:
http://www.bmw-plant-munich.com/lowb.../en/index.html



Seems like the above plant info hasn't been updated for some time...

BMW Steyr plant:
http://www.bmw-plant-steyr.com/

So far I haven't found any indications of such a low volume manufacturing process at Munich to compare with a true dedicated plant such as I witnessed at Cosworth's facility and assembly of Aston Martin engines etc. In fact it seems more like the special plant is there to assemble the "odd" engines that doesn't fit in the mainstream lines than it exists for higher tolerances etc.

This thread also shows that the S65 "sticks out like a sore thumb" compared to other BMW engines when it comes to clearances...

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838
Nice write up ... no one says that the M engines were handbuild as in some other special car branches, but they were so unique, that they could only be produced in the special engine plant ... also ín times where they were based on BMW AG engine blocks!
That´s the real reason, why it was an realy bad move in terms of M spirit ... none could says, that the S55 was an bad engine because it is build on the regular Steyr plant, but one great and important thing, that make the M cars so special, has gone ... the uniqueness of their engines.

Until now the M cars especially the M3 were build in the M spirit as "Rennsporttechnik für die Straße" and have only 20% of common part with the AG models they are based on. Also this has dropped to 50% which meens that the new M cars are much less unique and therefor much cheaper to produce ... without an drop in the consumer price.

SO you now are simple getting less for the same price compared with the old M cars. The performance doesn´t counts, because all M cars were better than their precessors ... every new M3 was the "best M3 ever", but with with the older M cars we get this performance increase together with the uniqueness of an car build in the spirit of the M-GmbH - race cars (from the technical point of view) in the outfit of regular coupes or sedans.

Greets BMW M3 CRT
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      11-26-2013, 07:59 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
Nice write up ... no one says that the M engines were handbuild as in some other special car branches, but they were so unique, that they could only be produced in the special engine plant ... also ín times where they were based on BMW AG engine blocks!
That´s the real reason, why it was an realy bad move in terms of M spirit ... none could says, that the S55 was an bad engine because it is build on the regular Steyr plant, but one great and important thing, that make the M cars so special, has gone ... the uniqueness of their engines.

Until now the M cars especially the M3 were build in the M spirit as "Rennsporttechnik für die Straße" and have only 20% of common part with the AG models they are based on. Also this has dropped to 50% which meens that the new M cars are much less unique and therefor much cheaper to produce ... without an drop in the consumer price.

SO you now are simple getting less for the same price compared with the old M cars. The performance doesn´t counts, because all M cars were better than their precessors ... every new M3 was the "best M3 ever", but with with the older M cars we get this performance increase together with the uniqueness of an car build in the spirit of the M-GmbH - race cars (from the technical point of view) in the outfit of regular coupes or sedans.

Greets BMW M3 CRT
Seems like the S65 has some tolerance issues, which I'd rather not have, even though it was made at the Munich plant. But, yes I understand what you are saying about the specialized engines needing a separate assembly line. That part is gone it seems. But the S55 is still a unique engine isn't it? It doesn't become more unique just because it's assembled on the same assembly line as the V12 IMHO. It is unique because it's a different engine from any other BMW engine



But I'm not sure that I agree on your view on similarity between the M and regular models. The way I see it, the F8x will be the M model that probably is the most different from the production models ever.

Why?

The engine, transmission, suspension, driveline are just as different from the base models as allways (even previous models have had a Block based on a Production Version). In fact, the CFRP driveshaft is a New Development from previous M's.

The bodyshell has never been so different from the base models, with more extensive use of CFRP.

The base models of a E36 or E46 (especially the E36) can easily be modified to a M3. The E36 only needs the driveline and suspension plus some easily attached reinforcement plates. The E46 needs new fenders front and rear in addition to what it takes to convert a E36, but very simple and easy modifications. The F3x will probably not be able to get legally converted to a M3/M4 as it's based on a separate bodyshell with a different part #

In which areas does the F8x differ less from the base models than a E30, E36, E46 and E9x?

Last edited by Boss330; 11-26-2013 at 08:07 AM..
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      11-26-2013, 08:44 AM   #197
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But I'm not sure that I agree on your view on similarity between the M and regular models. The way I see it, the F8x will be the M model that probably is the most different from the production models ever.

Why?

The engine, transmission, suspension, driveline are just as different from the base models as allways (even previous models have had a Block based on a Production Version). In fact, the CFRP driveshaft is a New Development from previous M's.

The bodyshell has never been so different from the base models, with more extensive use of CFRP.

The base models of a E36 or E46 (especially the E36) can easily be modified to a M3. The E36 only needs the driveline and suspension plus some easily attached reinforcement plates. The E46 needs new fenders front and rear in addition to what it takes to convert a E36, but very simple and easy modifications. The F3x will probably not be able to get legally converted to a M3/M4 as it's based on a separate bodyshell with a different part #

In which areas does the F8x differ less from the base models than a E30, E36, E46 and E9x?
The M3 of the E9x Family has only 20% common parts with the standard E9x .. this meen parts overall, not only body parts! Also the precessors are quoted in the same common part range. This was also specially marketed by the M-GmbH.

And in Jasons official review of the new M3/M4 in this forum, I read about 50% common parts ... much less than the previously quoted 20%, and this includes all CRFP-Part that are new in the F8x!

And also Mr.Biermann says in his SPORTAUTO interview, that they have made many parts together with the AG-Models to reduce productions costs.
He says this like it was a good move, but until now it was an important marketing issue that an M3 ist totally different from his 3er counterpart (it only looks like an 3er) and that this is the reason for its higher price.

Seems like the new M3/M4 is getting much cheaper ... but not for the customer ... only for BMW!?
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      11-26-2013, 09:14 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
The M3 of the E9x Family has only 20% common parts with the standard E9x .. this meen parts overall, not only body parts! Also the precessors are quoted in the same common part range. This was also specially marketed by the M-GmbH.
Could you please provide a link to this information?

Can't find any references to it in brochures or press releases.
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