INDustry distribution
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > BMW M3 (F80) and BMW M4 (F82) General Forum

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-26-2013, 09:20 AM   #199
JoeFromPA
Colonel
1450
Rep
2,855
Posts

Drives: '15 AW M3 6MT Stripper
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SE PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
The M3 of the E9x Family has only 20% common parts with the standard E9x .. this meen parts overall, not only body parts! Also the precessors are quoted in the same common part range. This was also specially marketed by the M-GmbH.

And in Jasons official review of the new M3/M4 in this forum, I read about 50% common parts ... much less than the previously quoted 20%, and this includes all CRFP-Part that are new in the F8x!

And also Mr.Biermann says in his SPORTAUTO interview, that they have made many parts together with the AG-Models to reduce productions costs.
He says this like it was a good move, but until now it was an important marketing issue that an M3 ist totally different from his 3er counterpart (it only looks like an 3er) and that this is the reason for its higher price.

Seems like the new M3/M4 is getting much cheaper ... but not for the customer ... only for BMW!?
Ok, I'm going to rant on this a bit. There was a famous American car company who, when looking at their costs, found that they had developed 6 different unique fasteners to hold the car seat down to the body across their line. Each one had development costs and manufacturing costs, and accomplished the same thing. It was determined that one of the fasteners was really over-engineered and could function for ALL applications and save the company a ton of money moving forward in:

1. Parts tooling costs
2. Parts manufacturing costs
3. Parts storage cost
4. Long-term parts supply costs

Now you could say each of those cars had more unique content, but it didn't actually do anything except drive costs up.

An f80 is a 3-series. It's always been a 3-series. It's a seriously beefed up 3-series.

For upfront and long-term reasons, I don't want 80% unique parts. That's ridiculous. 50% is an excellent blend indicating lots of new body panels, drivetrain parts, suspension, steering, and brakes. And of course interior bits.

However, we know that they are using unique parts when it counts most. This means that they STOPPED using unique parts where it didn't matter as much.

What does this mean for us?

More R&D and development dollars went into the vehicle's performance. Long term ownership will be less expensive for an M vehicle because some of the little stuff won't be 3x as expensive. And there's less opportunity for some uniquely developed part to be absolutely terrible because it's already been in use for 3 years.

As an owner of a ~13 year old, 127k mile e39 m5, let me tell you: It pisses me off when my front porkchop (read: lower fender liner in front of tire) is 2x the cost of a e39 540i because the e39 m5 used a unique part in that location. It's not a brake duct or anything performance related. It's a fender liner that has a thick rubber lip where it meets the body for God knows what reason - and it's 2x as much as a result.

In the e39 m5 crowd and many other older M crowds, it's a point of joy when you find a non-performance part that's shared across the line and therefore is a more reasonable cost

/Rant
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2013, 09:42 AM   #200
Gearhead999s
Major General
Gearhead999s's Avatar
698
Rep
7,881
Posts

Drives: RR Velar R=Dynamic M2C R1200GS
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Ok, I'm going to rant on this a bit. There was a famous American car company who, when looking at their costs, found that they had developed 6 different unique fasteners to hold the car seat down to the body across their line. Each one had development costs and manufacturing costs, and accomplished the same thing. It was determined that one of the fasteners was really over-engineered and could function for ALL applications and save the company a ton of money moving forward in:

1. Parts tooling costs
2. Parts manufacturing costs
3. Parts storage cost
4. Long-term parts supply costs

Now you could say each of those cars had more unique content, but it didn't actually do anything except drive costs up.

An f80 is a 3-series. It's always been a 3-series. It's a seriously beefed up 3-series.

For upfront and long-term reasons, I don't want 80% unique parts. That's ridiculous. 50% is an excellent blend indicating lots of new body panels, drivetrain parts, suspension, steering, and brakes. And of course interior bits.

However, we know that they are using unique parts when it counts most. This means that they STOPPED using unique parts where it didn't matter as much.

What does this mean for us?

More R&D and development dollars went into the vehicle's performance. Long term ownership will be less expensive for an M vehicle because some of the little stuff won't be 3x as expensive. And there's less opportunity for some uniquely developed part to be absolutely terrible because it's already been in use for 3 years.

As an owner of a ~13 year old, 127k mile e39 m5, let me tell you: It pisses me off when my front porkchop (read: lower fender liner in front of tire) is 2x the cost of a e39 540i because the e39 m5 used a unique part in that location. It's not a brake duct or anything performance related. It's a fender liner that has a thick rubber lip where it meets the body for God knows what reason - and it's 2x as much as a result.

In the e39 m5 crowd and many other older M crowds, it's a point of joy when you find a non-performance part that's shared across the line and therefore is a more reasonable cost

/Rant
Well said & very true!
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2013, 12:37 PM   #201
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
10407
Rep
16,421
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4cs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 BMW M4cs  [0.00]
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I know how a special plant works when we are talking about a small dedicated number of engines. I have been at the Cosworth facility in the UK and seen the assembly process of their F1 engines and road going engines (Like some Aston Martin and Ford Cosworth Duratec engines). However those are fairly small numbers, like a few hundreds or maybe low thousands a year, the S65 was made in 60.000 so it's hardly hand built.

To me, that indicates that the S65 and other M engines are mass produced on a assembly line, not hand built. Then the Munich assembly line has to be better than the one at the Steyr plant to make a difference.

The Munich engine facility makes 300.000 engines per year and the Steyr plant makes just over 1.000.000 engines per year, but with "only" 300.000 of those engines being petrol engines, the rest being diesels.

Overvierw over BMW plants:
http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/0_0_www_bm...rte/index.html

BMW Munich plant:
http://www.bmw-plant-munich.com/lowb.../en/index.html



The above plant info hasn't been updated for some time it seems... And, looks like it's only the V12 of the above engines still being produced on the "Special assmbly line" at Munich.

BMW Steyr plant:
http://www.bmw-plant-steyr.com/

So far I haven't found any indications of such a low volume manufacturing process at Munich to compare with a true dedicated plant such as I witnessed at Cosworth's facility and assembly of Aston Martin engines etc. In fact it seems more like the special plant is there to assemble the "odd" engines that doesn't fit in the mainstream lines than it exists for higher tolerances etc.

This thread also shows that the S65 "sticks out like a sore thumb" compared to other BMW engines when it comes to clearances...

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838
You need to compare apples to apples when comparing volumes...

The S65 was produced over 7 years, meaning a yearly volume of about 8500 engines. That represents less than 1% of the Steyr plant output and less than 3% of the Munich plant production.

I work in the engine manufacturing business, and I can attest that an engine built on a dedicated production line with dedicated resources gets more attention. It is however much more expensive because of it...
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2013, 12:56 PM   #202
Boss330
Brigadier General
Boss330's Avatar
Norway
991
Rep
4,832
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Norway, Scandinavia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
You need to compare apples to apples when comparing volumes...

The S65 was produced over 7 years, meaning a yearly volume of about 8500 engines. That represents less than 1% of the Steyr plant output and less than 3% of the Munich plant production.

I work in the engine manufacturing business, and I can attest that an engine built on a dedicated production line with dedicated resources gets more attention. It is however much more expensive because of it...
I agree on that, but before we can compare Apples to Apples we also need to know what kind of Production line the S55 will be built on at the Steyr plant

From the link in my previous post it seems the S65 has it's fair share of tolerance related issues though...
Appreciate 0
      11-26-2013, 12:59 PM   #203
BaLLzZz
Colonel
BaLLzZz's Avatar
United_States
98
Rep
2,296
Posts

Drives: e92 335i
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: NYC

iTrader: (5)

Purists hate change.

They feel much more comfortable using verbage such as evolution. I for one feel like the ///M brand is growing and setting targets for itself where it has to break some of the long standing individualism. Do I agree with any of it NO. But life goes on.

If the new M4 is a lighter, faster, and more rewarding(doubtful) I don't see how I can be mad. If that's not the case then that's more of a reason to look for an e92 or e46 or e30.


First build for these cars is May 14'
__________________
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. - Albert Einstein

01 e46 m54 - Current : 14 f10 n26 - Boring & Gone : 15 f30 n26 - Current : 08 e92 n54 - Gone & Missed!!!
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 12:07 PM   #204
M54ccibo
Major
M54ccibo's Avatar
United_States
61
Rep
1,489
Posts

Drives: '16 GT4
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gblansten
Quote:
Originally Posted by M54ccibo View Post
Can't wait to drive the car on the track. The fact that the diff is coming out of the M5/6, is really fantastic news. It is a marvel in the M5...really looking forward to this car.
Have you enjoyed your M5?
Yessir. Love the car.
__________________
Current: '16 GT4
Past ///Ms:
'13 F10 M5, Alpine Weiss III/Sakhir Orange Full
'10 E60 M5, Space Gray/Black
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 02:01 PM   #205
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
10407
Rep
16,421
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4cs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 BMW M4cs  [0.00]
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
From the link in my previous post it seems the S65 has it's fair share of tolerance related issues though...
Is it a design or a manufacturing issue...
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 04:31 PM   #206
Boss330
Brigadier General
Boss330's Avatar
Norway
991
Rep
4,832
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Norway, Scandinavia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Is it a design or a manufacturing issue...
It could be either one or both... A manufacturing issue with bearings, con rods or crank. But most likely a design issue IMHO
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 04:59 PM   #207
CanAutM3
Lieutenant General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
10407
Rep
16,421
Posts

Drives: 2019 M4cs
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 BMW M4cs  [0.00]
2018 Audi RS3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
It could be either one or both... A manufacturing issue with bearings, con rods or crank. But most likely a design issue IMHO
Agreed, I also think it more likely a marginal design. In which case the factory cannot be blamed...
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 07:02 PM   #208
duk
///M
United_States
128
Rep
3,149
Posts

Drives: 2011 AW/FR 6MT E92
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Jose, CA

iTrader: (0)

Really hoping M3/M4 will be GREAT, really do.

Just really on the fence about it too. Can't wait til the reviews and responses from you guys with a few years into the new cycle. I suspect a few kinks to be worked out with the S55...esp being built on the same prod line as regular engines.
__________________
2011.5 AW/FR E92 M3 6MT
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2013, 04:44 PM   #209
MIL.SPEC
Private
14
Rep
81
Posts

Drives: '05 Evo, '07 335i
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: LA, CA

iTrader: (0)

How have the other clearcoat roofs held up to the elements? Any fading issues?

Personally, I have never owned a BMW. Great cars, but I didn't see the point of spending money on an M3 when it was an NA car (I like to modify things). Now with the twin turbo going to be in it, I am completely interested.

I feel once people drive it, they won't be complaining. With the lighter weight and added torque, it's going to be awesome. And turbo engines love to be modified. It's going to be a very fun car.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2013, 04:58 PM   #210
playitfunky
Private First Class
144
Rep
156
Posts

Drives: M2
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Sorry put this in the wrong thread!!

If those figures are true then I'll be seriously looking at the Alpina.
ALPINA B3 BI-TURBO
Engine: 2,979cc, six-cylinder, twin-turbo
Transmission: 8-speed ZF automatic, rear-wheel drive
Power (hp): 410hp@5,500rpm
Torque (lb ft): 443lb ft@3,000rpm
0-62mph: 4.2sec
Top speed: 190mph
Weight: 1,680kg
MPG: 37.2mpg (claimed)
CO2: 177g/km
Price: £54,950

Expect the B4 to be similar. Ok on track the m would be the better car, but real world everyday driving? Not so sure
__________________
M2 :-)
Appreciate 0
      12-20-2013, 12:59 PM   #211
crypticc
Captain
United Kingdom
59
Rep
941
Posts

Drives: e92 M3 DCT + Comp
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London, UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by playitfunky View Post
Sorry put this in the wrong thread!!

If those figures are true then I'll be seriously looking at the Alpina.
ALPINA B3 BI-TURBO
Engine: 2,979cc, six-cylinder, twin-turbo
Transmission: 8-speed ZF automatic, rear-wheel drive
Power (hp): 410hp@5,500rpm
Torque (lb ft): 443lb ft@3,000rpm
0-62mph: 4.2sec
Top speed: 190mph
Weight: 1,680kg
MPG: 37.2mpg (claimed)
CO2: 177g/km
Price: £54,950

Expect the B4 to be similar. Ok on track the m would be the better car, but real world everyday driving? Not so sure
Now then, if they only made alpina in manual or with DCT? Would be interesting to see the area under the curve.
Appreciate 0
      12-20-2013, 04:01 PM   #212
ixse
Major
234
Rep
1,023
Posts

Drives: 2015 boxster s
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

alpina just doesnt look special to me.. little too understated
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
2014 bmw m3, 2014 bmw m3 horsepower, 2014 bmw m3 specs, 2014 bmw m4 horsepower, 2014 bmw m4 specs, 2014 m3, 2014 m3 engine, 2014 m3 forum, 2014 m3 horsepower, 2014 m3 hp, 2014 m3 specs, 2014 m3 weight, 2014 m4 engine, 2014 m4 horsepower, 2014 m4 hp, 2014 m4 specs, 2014 m4 weight, 2015 bmw m3, 2015 bmw m4, 2015 m3, 2015 m3 engine, 2015 m3 specs, 2015 m4, 2015 m4 engine, 2015 m4 hp, 2015 m4 weight, bmw f80, bmw f80 forum, bmw f80 forums, bmw f80 m3, bmw f80 m3 s55, bmw f80 m3 sedan, bmw f82, bmw f82 forum, bmw f82 forums, bmw f82 m3, bmw f82 m3 coupe, bmw f82 m3 forum, bmw f82 m4, bmw f82 m4 coupe, bmw f82 m4 s55, bmw f82 m4 video, bmw f83, bmw f83 m3, bmw f83 m4, bmw m forum, bmw m forums, bmw m3 carbon fiber roof, bmw m3 forum, bmw m3 forums, bmw m3 s55, bmw m3 s55 engine, bmw m3 yas marina blue, bmw m4, bmw m4 concept, bmw m4 concept coupe, bmw m4 coupe, bmw m4 coupe concept, bmw m4 curb weight, bmw m4 weight, f80 m3 specs, f80 m3 weight, f82 m4 specs, f82 m4 weight, m4 weight

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:58 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST