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      12-15-2013, 04:07 PM   #111
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what happens if BMW makes the F80 impossible to tune ? i know its not likely. does BMW care about the after market ? i know the M5s had some problems.
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      12-15-2013, 04:10 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
...does BMW care about the after market ?
Not really, no. BMW doesn't make their lineup because of what aftermarket tuners can do with their cars.


That doesn't mean that BMW is going to make it easy for them though
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      12-15-2013, 05:09 PM   #113
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From this photo it seems the S55 has a TF015 (?) turbo (Mitsubishi).



This is the flow chart of a TF035:



But we don't know compressor sizes etc, so probably not bringing us any closer...

I can't find any information of a TF015 turbo, the only TF turbo I can find is the TF035. But to me it doesn't say TF035 on the turbo in the pic, does it?

The numbers I can read from the designation is:

TF015HI 4W-11HE17-6.0

Or could it possibly be:

TF035HI 4W-11HE17-6.0

The latter makes more sense as the TF035 is a Mitsu turbo:

http://www.mtee.eu/products/turbocha...harger-line-up

The number should decode as follows:

TF035: Turbo Family
4W: No idea
HI: Shaft and Wheel combination
11HE17: Turbine and compressor sizes (a "normal" TF035 usually has a 10-14 size compressor - and a "normal" TF035 supports around 240hp)
6: Turbine housing A/R

Last edited by Boss330; 12-15-2013 at 05:23 PM..
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      12-15-2013, 05:30 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post

I can't find any information of a TF015 turbo, the only TF turbo I can find is the TF035. But to me it doesn't say TF035 on the turbo in the pic, does it?
It sure looks like it says TF035 to me.
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      12-15-2013, 05:43 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It sure looks like it says TF035 to me.
Yes, I think you are correct (I've studied it more closely).

If I have the numbers correctly, it seems to have a much larger compressor side than the one I had a flow chart for (that can support enough air for 240hp roughly). Indicating a compressor side that can flow more than enough air for 250hp (per turbo).
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      12-15-2013, 05:47 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It sure looks like it says TF035 to me.
Yes, I think you are correct (I've studied it more closely).

If I have the numbers correctly, it seems to have a much larger compressor side than the one I had a flow chart for (that can support enough air for 240hp roughly). Indicating a compressor side that can flow more than enough air for 250hp (per turbo).
It says TF03511 or TF03514. Can we compare this turbo with the N54 turbos?
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      12-15-2013, 06:13 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It sure looks like it says TF035 to me.
Yes, I think you are correct (I've studied it more closely).

If I have the numbers correctly, it seems to have a much larger compressor side than the one I had a flow chart for (that can support enough air for 240hp roughly). Indicating a compressor side that can flow more than enough air for 250hp (per turbo).
I believe the N54 uses MHI TD03. I'll do some research.
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      12-15-2013, 08:33 PM   #118
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Nice detective work there Boss330. To me it looks like you got it right with this line:

TF035HI 4W-11HE17-6.0

I'm having the most difficulty to see the W though, looks like an H but I guess H and W is easy to mistake so if W has a known meaning in that position and H doesn't it's likely a W.
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      12-15-2013, 10:31 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savory View Post
there is only so much 3 liters of displacement can do reliably, but 430 hp is admittedly not that much for an engine to handle by today's standards. Time will tell..
Really? I'm sorry, but what other 3.0 liter turbo engine do you know that is developing as much power as this one is stock from the factory? Am I missing something? That is a crap-ton of power being extracted out of a fairly humble powerplant.

That's just what scares me. I am drawn to cars with engines that are over-engineered and under-stressed with lots of potential left on the table (Mezger Porsche Turbos, GT-Rs, Supra Turbos, Mustang 5.0's, etc). With this car, I'm honestly going to feel like I'm being propelled by something that is a little too similar to what is under the hood of some teenager's '07 FBO 335i.

I would bet good money that this will be the least expensive M3 engine (in relation to car price) ever. It just smacks of irritating thriftiness.
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      12-16-2013, 01:33 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
Really? I'm sorry, but what other 3.0 liter turbo engine do you know that is developing as much power as this one is stock from the factory? Am I missing something? That is a crap-ton of power being extracted out of a fairly humble powerplant.

That's just what scares me. I am drawn to cars with engines that are over-engineered and under-stressed with lots of potential left on the table (Mezger Porsche Turbos, GT-Rs, Supra Turbos, Mustang 5.0's, etc). With this car, I'm honestly going to feel like I'm being propelled by something that is a little too similar to what is under the hood of some teenager's '07 FBO 335i.

I would bet good money that this will be the least expensive M3 engine (in relation to car price) ever. It just smacks of irritating thriftiness.
430hp from 3l = 143hp/l

143x2 = 286hp
143x3 = 430hp
143x4 = 572hp

A few examples:

A45 AMG = 360hp from 2l (180hp/l)
RS6 V8 = 560hp from 4l (140hp/l)
GT-R = 545hp from 3.8l (143hp/l)
991Turbo S = 560hp from 3.8l (147hp/l)
MP4-12C = 616hp from 3.8l (162hp/l)
Volvo T6 = 306hp from 2l (153hp/l) - New T6 engine replacing the old 3l I6

There are other examples as well.

Please explain what make the above engines less "humble" than the S55 and why we should be concerned with the capabilities of the S55 and not the 991, GT-R, RS6 or A45 AMG?

Please at least try to do some fact checking before claiming things... It improves credibility

Last edited by Boss330; 12-16-2013 at 01:43 AM..
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      12-16-2013, 01:46 AM   #121
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If you just look at hp and displacement 3l is plenty to work with.
The F1 engines in the late 1980s generated over 1000hp with 1.5l engines ( 666hp/liter ).

It's when you want to balance a relatively lag free, very powerful and sufficently cooled and reliable engine that it starts to hurt with a smallish engine.
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      12-16-2013, 01:52 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
Really? I'm sorry, but what other 3.0 liter turbo engine do you know that is developing as much power as this one is stock from the factory? Am I missing something? That is a crap-ton of power being extracted out of a fairly humble powerplant.

That's just what scares me. I am drawn to cars with engines that are over-engineered and under-stressed with lots of potential left on the table (Mezger Porsche Turbos, GT-Rs, Supra Turbos, Mustang 5.0's, etc). With this car, I'm honestly going to feel like I'm being propelled by something that is a little too similar to what is under the hood of some teenager's '07 FBO 335i.

I would bet good money that this will be the least expensive M3 engine (in relation to car price) ever. It just smacks of irritating thriftiness.
not to mention the m4 is going to sound somewhat like a 3.0L modded 335i.

so that teenager with his JB4 335i with down pipes and exhaust is going to match your engine note also. have fun with that, i know i will never be put in that position.
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      12-16-2013, 04:20 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
not to mention the m4 is going to sound somewhat like a 3.0L modded 335i.

so that teenager with his JB4 335i with down pipes and exhaust is going to match your engine note also. have fun with that, i know i will never be put in that position.
An S55 at 600hp/500 ft-lb would be tempting. And I hope it will sound better than the 335i when tuned.
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      12-16-2013, 04:37 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
not to mention the m4 is going to sound somewhat like a 3.0L modded 335i.

so that teenager with his JB4 335i with down pipes and exhaust is going to match your engine note also. have fun with that, i know i will never be put in that position.
I for one am glad the M3 won't sound like a teenagers Camaro anymore

Just like a E46 M3 sounds like a NA 6 cyl, just turned up to 11, so does a E9x M3 compare with a V8.
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      12-16-2013, 10:04 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RingMeister01
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfer
I can't imagine there is much potential left that still allows for the car to be reliable on the track. Try explaining to your SA that your turbo bearings blew apart and its not the tune's fault. Cooling will be the #1 issue. I do agree though that COBB would be the way I would go.

I don't see how anything close to 500 HP could be reliable at full tilt with stock hardware. You're just fooling yourself.
Why not? There are so many S65's running 6-8 psi superchargers running stock internals. And this is on an engine designed to be NA. BMW has over engineered the S55 as they have with every other motor built. This motor and drivetrain particularly have increased torsional and mechanical strength. If the ECU is successfully manipulated, we'll see some big numbers, without a fuss.
It's not the engine that I'm talking about, it's the cooling hardware and turbos. Heat will limit power. Does everyone forget how hot turbo cars run? I'm surprised that this car will be reliably trackable in stock form but I have doubts with bumping PSI on an ECU tune. How many tuned N55s do we see surviving track duty? Sure the F8x has improved cooling hardware but can that accommodate for more heat than stock? Limp mode will be king if tuners push 500hp.
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      12-16-2013, 12:46 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
Really? I'm sorry, but what other 3.0 liter turbo engine do you know that is developing as much power as this one is stock from the factory? Am I missing something? That is a crap-ton of power being extracted out of a fairly humble powerplant.

That's just what scares me. I am drawn to cars with engines that are over-engineered and under-stressed with lots of potential left on the table (Mezger Porsche Turbos, GT-Rs, Supra Turbos, Mustang 5.0's, etc). With this car, I'm honestly going to feel like I'm being propelled by something that is a little too similar to what is under the hood of some teenager's '07 FBO 335i.

I would bet good money that this will be the least expensive M3 engine (in relation to car price) ever. It just smacks of irritating thriftiness.
Again, you have yet to provide any proof that the S55 is under engineered and over stressed. We have literally no info to make bold claims like that. All those engines you have listed have been proven and tested, S55 hasn't even been released! Yeah, it's not an 8.4L V10 Viper engine that only makes 640hp, but in terms of hp/L, cars with less cylinders and displacement still have tons of tuning capability. The 2.5L I-5 in the RS3 and TT-RS makes 360hp in stock form, and is able to extract another ~100 HP reliably. Not a direct comparison, but 430hp from a modern turbo motor isn't a particular difficult task.
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      12-16-2013, 01:28 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
It's not the engine that I'm talking about, it's the cooling hardware and turbos. Heat will limit power. Does everyone forget how hot turbo cars run? I'm surprised that this car will be reliably trackable in stock form but I have doubts with bumping PSI on an ECU tune. How many tuned N55s do we see surviving track duty? Sure the F8x has improved cooling hardware but can that accommodate for more heat than stock? Limp mode will be king if tuners push 500hp.
Does the tuned 911 Turbo's, GT-R's etc constantly go into limp mode then?
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      12-16-2013, 01:44 PM   #128
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If you are into tracking that much on a RWD platform, I doubt bumping the S55 up significantly in power is going to be the first factor on your list. This is a longer wheelbase vehicle with a still-substantial weight already near the limits of adhesion and with a massive, flat torque delivery.

Let's actually evaluate what we know of the S55:

1. It has serious primary and secondary cooling systems in place (look at the diagrams and radiators we know exist, good Lord that's a lot of cooling)

2. It's a closed deck block. The n54 was an open deck block. A closed deck block will be significantly more capable of taking much higher levels of boost/pressure/heat.

3. The n54 is capable of supporting very high HP figures. The S55 appears, by what we know so far, of being a N54-based engine that is significantly more built for safe power from day one.

...

If you want to look at n54 tuning compared to the S55, evaluate only what you know so far. It appears to make an excellent platform for 500+ whp goals, on paper.

Also, the N54 is not suitable to run heavily tuned on the track without significant cooling capacity. The n54, even with stock oil coolers, couldn't handle it's heat when driven hard. It appears that's been taken care of in the s55, or at least was a major goal.
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      12-16-2013, 01:56 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
It's not the engine that I'm talking about, it's the cooling hardware and turbos. Heat will limit power. Does everyone forget how hot turbo cars run? I'm surprised that this car will be reliably trackable in stock form but I have doubts with bumping PSI on an ECU tune. How many tuned N55s do we see surviving track duty? Sure the F8x has improved cooling hardware but can that accommodate for more heat than stock? Limp mode will be king if tuners push 500hp.
They run as hot as they are tuned for and as high as their cooling systems can handle. You do realize that the longest lasting and hardest used engines in the world are turbocharged right? - commercial turbo diesels.

However, heat is a byproduct of turbo design, intercooling, airflow, engine design, and engine cooling.

The S55 has more radiators and apparently notably more weight as a result. The intercooler setup is more advanced and capable of keeping charge air cool. The exhaust manifolds have been re-designed. And the S55 itself is a closed deck block - which better manages heat.

I'm also going to assume that the magnesium oil sump has more capacity and that the cooling system is likely higher capacity of coolant.

On top of that we don't know what additional airflow/heat transfer things they built in.

I agree heat is a limiting factor, but the N55 and most N54 applications have always been mass-produced street cars that a very elect few take to the track and usually had to modify a good bit just to be ready for basic track duty.

The m3/m4 is built for extended track duty. And they emphasized how much effort was put into cooling.

In other words, don't worry about cooling until it becomes a true concern.
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      12-16-2013, 02:28 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post

Please explain what make the above engines less "humble" than the S55 and why we should be concerned with the capabilities of the S55 and not the 991, GT-R, RS6 or A45 AMG?

Please at least try to do some fact checking before claiming things... It improves credibility


Your response does not apply to my question. Yes, we know the 2 liter in the new AMG makes a lot of power, it is the character of the power and the ability to extract more power from the engine that we're discussing here. We all know that a RB26DETT is capable of immense power (>1000whp), but this isn't a discussion about hp per liter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Savory View Post
Again, you have yet to provide any proof that the S55 is under engineered and over stressed.
I have no doubt the S55 engine itself is capable of developing LOTS of power provided there is a turbo mated to it that can make that kind of power. I do not question the engine, I question the turbos. The turbos on the N54 are capable of putting down over 400whp before they run out of their efficiency range. That is a SIGNIFICANT, high ceiling over the factory "300"hp which found the turbos loafing by at under 9psi.

The M3/M4 turbo stock boost will probably be anywhere between 14-18.9psi depending on humidity and altitude. If we just start at the low end in ideal conditions, a factory 14psi map can go as high as...what....20psi? 21? We don't know the flow characteristics of these turbos but my guess is that they're small and are going to have to work as hard if not harder than the N54 turbos (this is based on BMW's claims of lag-free operation and low RPM spool-up)

So no I have no hard evidence. But I have owned turbo cars for 15+ years and have modified most of them and maybe I am not providing the correct science to satisfy your inquiry but I just think it seems highly unlikely that people are going to see 50+whp from this car with a tune-only like they're seeing in the N54 world.

It is just not hard to conceive that this engine is coming from BMW "pre-optimized" and therefore it is really hard to expect significant, inexpensive power gains. For many of you, the stock power levels are PLENTY. But for guys like me who want 4-door sports cars that can run with AMG C63s and CTS-V's, this just isn't enough.
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      12-16-2013, 02:45 PM   #131
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There are two separate discussions going on here:

1. A discussion of how much power the S55 is likely to be able to make with tune and exhaust mods

2. A discussion of how much power the S55 is likely to be able to make with all sorts of modifications including new turbos, etc.

Also, there are plenty of engines that can handle 700-900whp, sure. But they aren't daily driven for 50k miles without serious repair AND/OR they aren't turbo engines that aren't seriously laggy.
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      12-16-2013, 02:48 PM   #132
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Can someone explain to me the notion that the turbos will work at +18 psi at high altitude and several psi lower at sea level? I get the physics with thinner air and the need for higher boost to make the advertised hp what I don't get is why would BMW not run a psi that the engine obviously has been designed and tested to handle at all altitudes? Yes it means that it would make more power than advertised at sea level but so what? It's not like that is a bad thing, why program the ECU to always generate the same hp at all altitudes instead of the same psi, doesn't make sense to me?
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