What track pads from FCP Euro?

[Monkey Throttle]

Greetings,

My Endless track pads are cooked. I recently learned about FCP Euro's return policy where they will take back used pads and exchange with new ones even if they have been tracked.

So what pads do you recommend (that FCP Euro sells) for track use?

Caveat:
- These will not be street pads. I change out my front pads for track days.
- I'm not overly concerned if they wear fast as I can always exchange them for free.
- If they overly abuse the rotors, I can get replacement rotors from FCP EURO as well and they will swap those used for new ones for no charge.
- I don't have ceramics.

- My vehicle does not have suspension. I read somewhere that if I go with Hawks, 60 might be a better option than the 70 if you don't have suspension.

I'm an advanced driver. Car is a stock 2018 M3 with ZCP (444hp)

Thanks,

[Monkey Throttle]

https://www.fcpeuro.com/BMW-parts/M3...&b=5&d=5147&v=

[M3SQRD]

What tire sizes are you using? Brand and type; e.g., Yoko A053 200 TW, Bridgestone RE71RS 200 TW, etc.?

There’s really only two true track/race pads on FCP euro - Hawk DTC70 and DTC60

There are two street performance/light track use (not really sure what that means?) - Ferodo DS2500 and EDC Blue Stuff

High performance/light track use pads cannot handle the pace of a driver in the fast beginner or intermediate level. On a brake heavy track with an intermediate level driver, you could go thru a set of these in one track day.

Not sure why someone recommended Hawk DTC70 over the DTC60 (tire?) but the DTC70 is a better front pad. DTC60 is a better on the rear. Its COF is lower than the DTC70 over the entire temperature range. Assuming the DTC recommendation was tire related, I’d still recommend the DTC70 because (1) you’ll likely outgrow the DTC60 which means you’ll have to buy the DTC later on from FCP euro and (2) DTC70 has a higher COF and it can grow with you and/or your change in tire TW rating. This applies to the front. As for the rear, do you want improved braking performance then the DTC70 is the better choice. However, be aware that front DTC70 and rear DTC70 can potentially cause a dancing/unstable rear end. It happened to me on my e46 M3 dedicated track car and it wasn’t the best feeling under braking for turn 1 at VIR. Replaced the rear with DTC60 and the rear braking instability. I prefer running a more aggressive pad on the rear so i was surprised there was a braking instability. I have since switched to PFC pads for track/race compounds. PFC 39 and PFC 11 are phenomenal race pads. Actually, their entire lineup is great and you can find a front-rear combo for an.

So my personal recommendation would be to use the DTC70 (front and rear) over the DTC60 as well as the Ferodo DS2500 and EBC Blue Stuff. Get the best pad you can buy. However, if you’re running 300 TW tires and have no plans to go with a higher grip tire then ignore I just wrote. In this case, I’d use DTC60 pads to minimize ABS intervention. DTC70 will definitely over power the tires. DTC60 will engage ABS but I think you’ll still have good modulation.

[Monkey Throttle]

Wow - great info.

I’m running square corner 18’s on Kenda 200 TW tires. I don’t bother with the rear pads so they are just OEM.
I’m not overly concerned with trying to squeeze out max performance or best lap times… I like finding the balance between cost/performance/longevity.

I don’t think I’ll mind brake modulation. I used to race open wheelers with no traction control or ABS so I can adapt.

I thought I read somewhere on this forum that the hawk 60 was the more appropriate track pad for a F80 without suspension but I’ll just ignore that and go with the 70. I’m a pretty advanced driver so I could probably use the extra bite.
Again, not worried about rotors cause my FCP plan is to keep rotating them out for new when appropriate.

Thanks for the advice and I’ll feedback after Chuckwalla at end of the month.

[mike082802]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

What tire sizes are you using? Brand and type; e.g., Yoko A053 200 TW, Bridgestone RE71RS 200 TW, etc.?

There’s really only two true track/race pads on FCP euro - Hawk DTC70 and DTC60

There are two street performance/light track use (not really sure what that means?) - Ferodo DS2500 and EDC Blue Stuff

High performance/light track use pads cannot handle the pace of a driver in the fast beginner or intermediate level. On a brake heavy track with an intermediate level driver, you could go thru a set of these in one track day.

Not sure why someone recommended Hawk DTC70 over the DTC60 (tire?) but the DTC70 is a better front pad. DTC60 is a better on the rear. Its COF is lower than the DTC70 over the entire temperature range. Assuming the DTC recommendation was tire related, I’d still recommend the DTC70 because (1) you’ll likely outgrow the DTC60 which means you’ll have to buy the DTC later on from FCP euro and (2) DTC70 has a higher COF and it can grow with you and/or your change in tire TW rating. This applies to the front. As for the rear, do you want improved braking performance then the DTC70 is the better choice. However, be aware that front DTC70 and rear DTC70 can potentially cause a dancing/unstable rear end. It happened to me on my e46 M3 dedicated track car and it wasn’t the best feeling under braking for turn 1 at VIR. Replaced the rear with DTC60 and the rear braking instability. I prefer running a more aggressive pad on the rear so i was surprised there was a braking instability. I have since switched to PFC pads for track/race compounds. PFC 39 and PFC 11 are phenomenal race pads. Actually, their entire lineup is great and you can find a front-rear combo for an.

So my personal recommendation would be to use the DTC70 (front and rear) over the DTC60 as well as the Ferodo DS2500 and EBC Blue Stuff. Get the best pad you can buy. However, if you’re running 300 TW tires and have no plans to go with a higher grip tire then ignore I just wrote. In this case, I’d use DTC60 pads to minimize ABS intervention. DTC70 will definitely over power the tires. DTC60 will engage ABS but I think you’ll still have good modulation.

For an intermediate driver who plans to stay on 200tw tires with just coilovers would you still recommend the dtc 70 over the 60? i thought i read on here the dtc 60 was a better pad as well. i've been debating which to pick up from fcp as well as spring is getting close here in the northeast and need to purchase soon.
thanks

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by mike082802

For an intermediate driver who plans to stay on 200tw tires with just coilovers would you still recommend the dtc 70 over the 60? i thought i read on here the dtc 60 was a better pad as well. i've been debating which to pick up from fcp as well as spring is getting close here in the northeast and need to purchase soon.
thanks

I just had a long post disappear on me

Recommending a race pad(s) isn’t easy because there’s a long list of pad characteristics that are weighed differently by each person. I prefer a pad that has torque rise/increase with temperature (i.e., progressive friction curve, more brake torque at the end of braking), excellent fade resistance, strong but not overly aggressive initial bite, good wear resistance, low-medium disc wear, easy to modulate and with great release. I also like to shift brake bias to the rear by using a higher COF rear pad, combined with proper front springs, you can gain time in the braking zone.

The DTC60 pad recommendation is probably due to its ability to overpower a stock braking system on street tires (torque . However, that’s just one brake pad characteristic. What do you want from a pad?

[jfritz27]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

. I also like to shift brake bias to the rear by using a higher COF rear pad, combined with proper front springs, you can gain time in the braking zone.?

So I fully understand the theory behind this statement, is it...: Shifting bias rearward forces the rears to perform a greater share of the braking work than they otherwise would, thus increasing the overall efficiency of decelerating the entire mass of the car. But this would at least be partially counteracted by OEM-like soft spring/suspension characteristics (due to excessive forward weight transfer, which could also lead to rear lock-up as an unwanted consequence with higher rear brake torque on a relatively unloaded tire), hence the second part of your statement about having proper front spring rates (which I assume to mean appropriately stiff)....

[mike082802]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I just had a long post disappear on me

Recommending a race pad(s) isn’t easy because there’s a long list of pad characteristics that are weighed differently by each person. I prefer a pad that has torque rise/increase with temperature (i.e., progressive friction curve, more brake torque at the end of braking), excellent fade resistance, strong but not overly aggressive initial bite, good wear resistance, low-medium disc wear, easy to modulate and with great release. I also like to shift brake bias to the rear by using a higher COF rear pad, combined with proper front springs, you can gain time in the braking zone.

The DTC60 pad recommendation is probably due to its ability to overpower a stock braking system on street tires (torque . However, that’s just one brake pad characteristic. What do you want from a pad?

I guess if I’m buying from fcp wear doesn’t really matter as well as the disc wear is irrelevant since I buy my rotors from fcp as well. I guess I really meant if i never really plan to run slicks does it matter between the 60 and 70? I have to think a little more about my braking.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

So I fully understand the theory behind this statement, is it...: Shifting bias rearward forces the rears to perform a greater share of the braking work than they otherwise would, thus increasing the overall efficiency of decelerating the entire mass of the car. But this would at least be partially counteracted by OEM-like soft spring/suspension characteristics (due to excessive forward weight transfer, which could also lead to rear lock-up as an unwanted consequence with higher rear brake torque on a relatively unloaded tire), hence the second part of your statement about having proper front spring rates (which I assume to mean appropriately stiff)....

Correct. You need to look at the dynamic brake bias to understand how much further forward the brake bias shifts. For a car like the f8x with a close 50-50 weight distribution, its weight, and its wheelbase, you’ll see around a 6-8% further shift in dynamic forward brake bias. So if you started off at ~62% static forward brake bias, you’d dynamically shift to 68-70% forward bias. To see how aggressive you can go with rear pad COF, you need to assume a tire grip vs. normal load curve or find something similar for your tire type/TW. Then keep increasing mu until you predict the rear tire locks up under its reduced vertical load. This is an example where reservoir pressure can help with load distribution by increasing reservoir pressure without having to increase spring rate. You should read up on through shaft dampers (TSD) and see how it balances the reservoir pressure. Big concern in F1 because the chassis and mechanical setups are so stiff they need the piston to compress under very low suspension loads.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by mike082802

I guess if I’m buying from fcp wear doesn’t really matter as well as the disc wear is irrelevant since I buy my rotors from fcp as well. I guess I really meant if i never really plan to run slicks does it matter between the 60 and 70? I have to think a little more about my braking.

If you’re going to the track to have fun and not chase times then it boils down to what you want from a pad: e.g., do you or don’t you like high initial bite? do you or don’t you like high torque? do you like to modulate the brake pressure while braking or do you go full 100% until you release the pedal? Do you trail brake or get your braking done in a straight line? Pad release becomes a concern if you’re using the brakes to help rotate the car. Think about those questions and they’ll help with picking DTC60 or DTC70.

[seanm500]

I was also looking into the DTC60s on FCP, but I saw a video that showed corrosion/rusting of the wheels from brake dust (that got wet) from those pads. This is my daily driver, so don't want the rims to get too thrashed. How big an issue is the corrosiveness of this compound, and is it avoidable if just cleaned immediately after a track day?

[seanm500]

As a follow up, it looks like Turner Motorsport also has a lifetime guarantee like FCP, and they have a couple Pagid options. Any opinions on how the RSL29s would compare to DTC60/DTC70?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by seanm500

I was also looking into the DTC60s on FCP, but I saw a video that showed corrosion/rusting of the wheels from brake dust (that got wet) from those pads. This is my daily driver, so don't want the rims to get too thrashed. How big an issue is the corrosiveness of this compound, and is it avoidable if just cleaned immediately after a track day?

Any semi-metallic pad can be corrosive to wheels and paint. Race pads generate more dust so it can make the problem worse. I’ll wipe down the wheels with a waterless cleaners usually at the end of the day. However, with 35 years of tracking I have yet to permanently damage a wheel or paint from race pads. You should run into no problems if you clean the car the next day.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by seanm500

As a follow up, it looks like Turner Motorsport also has a lifetime guarantee like FCP, and they have a couple Pagid options. Any opinions on how the RSL29s would compare to DTC60/DTC70?

RSL29 is similar to a DTC30 and Carbotech XP8 which have a little lower COF. Basically one step below the DTC60. However, if the pad has the characteristics that you like then you might find it works better for you than a DTC60. You’ll know when you finally find the perfect pad for you. It took me the better part of a decade to finally find the brand that was perfect for me - PFC! After just a couple of hot laps, I couldn’t believe the difference. Started with 01. Then tried 03 and 05. PFC discontinued the 05 which was my favorite pad so I then tried the 11, 13 and 39 compounds. 11 is awesome but has a highly progressive COF vs. temp whereas the 39 has an insane COF from low temps to extremely high temps with no fall off! My lap times improved when I first tried 01 and continued to drop as I honed in on the perfect PFC compound.

Depending on how much you track, you could buy the RSL29 from Turner and DTC60 from FCP. Then compare them on track and see whether you like one more than the other or at least you’ll see how different pads perform in different ways. Like I said it took me an extremely long time to find exactly what I was looking for in a brake pad.

[seanm500]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

RSL29 is similar to a DTC30 and Carbotech XP8 which have a little lower COF. Basically one step below the DTC60. However, if the pad has the characteristics that you like then you might find it works better for you than a DTC60. You’ll know when you finally find the perfect pad for you. It took me the better part of a decade to finally find the brand that was perfect for me - PFC! After just a couple of hot laps, I couldn’t believe the difference. Started with 01. Then tried 03 and 05. PFC discontinued the 05 which was my favorite pad so I then tried the 11, 13 and 39 compounds. 11 is awesome but has a highly progressive COF vs. temp whereas the 39 has an insane COF from low temps to extremely high temps with no fall off! My lap times improved when I first tried 01 and continued to drop as I honed in on the perfect PFC compound.

Depending on how much you track, you could buy the RSL29 from Turner and DTC60 from FCP. Then compare them on track and see whether you like one more than the other or at least you’ll see how different pads perform in different ways. Like I said it took me an extremely long time to find exactly what I was looking for in a brake pad.

Appreciate the insight!

[seanm500]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

RSL29 is similar to a DTC30 and Carbotech XP8 which have a little lower COF. Basically one step below the DTC60. However, if the pad has the characteristics that you like then you might find it works better for you than a DTC60. You’ll know when you finally find the perfect pad for you. It took me the better part of a decade to finally find the brand that was perfect for me - PFC! After just a couple of hot laps, I couldn’t believe the difference. Started with 01. Then tried 03 and 05. PFC discontinued the 05 which was my favorite pad so I then tried the 11, 13 and 39 compounds. 11 is awesome but has a highly progressive COF vs. temp whereas the 39 has an insane COF from low temps to extremely high temps with no fall off! My lap times improved when I first tried 01 and continued to drop as I honed in on the perfect PFC compound.

Depending on how much you track, you could buy the RSL29 from Turner and DTC60 from FCP. Then compare them on track and see whether you like one more than the other or at least you’ll see how different pads perform in different ways. Like I said it took me an extremely long time to find exactly what I was looking for in a brake pad.

Seems when swapping pads for daily/track, it's best to stick with similar compounds from the same company, or does it not matter? Also, if it matters, what Pagid pad would be best to pair with the RSL29 for street? Or could I get away with the RSL29 (from a safety and noise perspective) if paired with brand new rotors? I will be new to IRL track driving (vs sim), but hope to go every month or two, so keeping costs down with the lifetime warranties via FCP & Turner as well as minimizing swapping (if possible) would be ideal.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by seanm500

Seems when swapping pads for daily/track, it's best to stick with similar compounds from the same company, or does it not matter? Also, if it matters, what Pagid pad would be best to pair with the RSL29 for street? Or could I get away with the RSL29 (from a safety and noise perspective) if paired with brand new rotors? I will be new to IRL track driving (vs sim), but hope to go every month or two, so keeping costs down with the lifetime warranties via FCP & Turner as well as minimizing swapping (if possible) would be ideal.

First, you find out how simple it is to swap between street and track pads. It takes longer to loosen the lug bolts (or nuts if using studs), jack up and remove the wheel.

Second, unless you can live with brakes squealing extremely loudly and race pads that are quickly removing material from the rotors, you’ll want to swap back to a street setup. There’s two types of braking - abrasive and ablative. Ablative is when the pad is up to temperature and is riding on, and wearing away, the layer of pad material that’s been transferred to the rotor surface. This is how you want your brakes to operate on the street. Abrasive is when you have a brake pad with a very high COF that is being used at temperatures far below its operating temperature. Instead of riding on the transfer layer, the brake pad is literally machining away surface material from the brake rotor; i.e., pads are acting like a brake lathe. So not only will you have to live with pads that can wake the dead, you’ll also be going thru rotors pretty quickly.

Third, I have had zero issues when swapping street and race pads. I use Carbotech 1521 street compound on all of my cars and have not run into a single incompatible pad material issue with Hawk, Cobalt, PFC, etc., when swapping between street and race compounds. I just do a quick two-cycle rebedding process. First rebedding is to clean the street compound off of the rotors + get the rotors up to temp and then a second rebedding to transfer the race pad compound to the rotors.

[mike082802]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

First, you find out how simple it is to swap between street and track pads. It takes longer to loosen the lug bolts (or nuts if using studs), jack up and remove the wheel.

Second, unless you can live with brakes squealing extremely loudly and race pads that are quickly removing material from the rotors, you’ll want to swap back to a street setup. There’s two types of braking - abrasive and ablative. Ablative is when the pad is up to temperature and is riding on, and wearing away, the layer of pad material that’s been transferred to the rotor surface. This is how you want your brakes to operate on the street. Abrasive is when you have a brake pad with a very high COF that is being used at temperatures far below its operating temperature. Instead of riding on the transfer layer, the brake pad is literally machining away surface material from the brake rotor; i.e., pads are acting like a brake lathe. So not only will you have to live with pads that can wake the dead, you’ll also be going thru rotors pretty quickly.

Third, I have had zero issues when swapping street and race pads. I use Carbotech 1521 street compound on all of my cars and have not run into a single incompatible pad material issue with Hawk, Cobalt, PFC, etc., when swapping between street and race compounds. I just do a quick two-cycle rebedding process. First rebedding is to clean the street compound off of the rotors + get the rotors up to temp and then a second rebedding to transfer the race pad compound to the rotors.

thanks for the wealth of knowledge

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by mike082802

thanks for the wealth of knowledge

You’re welcome

[Monkey Throttle]

Got my DTC 70... Going to Chuckwalla next weekend. Will report back.

[seanm500]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

First, you find out how simple it is to swap between street and track pads. It takes longer to loosen the lug bolts (or nuts if using studs), jack up and remove the wheel.

Second, unless you can live with brakes squealing extremely loudly and race pads that are quickly removing material from the rotors, you’ll want to swap back to a street setup. There’s two types of braking - abrasive and ablative. Ablative is when the pad is up to temperature and is riding on, and wearing away, the layer of pad material that’s been transferred to the rotor surface. This is how you want your brakes to operate on the street. Abrasive is when you have a brake pad with a very high COF that is being used at temperatures far below its operating temperature. Instead of riding on the transfer layer, the brake pad is literally machining away surface material from the brake rotor; i.e., pads are acting like a brake lathe. So not only will you have to live with pads that can wake the dead, you’ll also be going thru rotors pretty quickly.

Third, I have had zero issues when swapping street and race pads. I use Carbotech 1521 street compound on all of my cars and have not run into a single incompatible pad material issue with Hawk, Cobalt, PFC, etc., when swapping between street and race compounds. I just do a quick two-cycle rebedding process. First rebedding is to clean the street compound off of the rotors + get the rotors up to temp and then a second rebedding to transfer the race pad compound to the rotors.

Appreciate your input, thank you! I'm not really worried about the rotor wear since I will be using FCP euro for the rotors, but I do care about the daily drivability and noise. That said, you've convinced me, so I'm thinking I will probably run the Ferodo DS2500s for now, get through my first few events, and re-evaluate what kind of race pad to run once I have a better sense of how much I am pushing them based on my pace/capability. I was thinking I wanted to jump straight into the race pads to save some $$, but I suppose that is my lack of experience talking. Thanks again!

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by seanm500

Appreciate your input, thank you! I'm not really worried about the rotor wear since I will be using FCP euro for the rotors, but I do care about the daily drivability and noise. That said, you've convinced me, so I'm thinking I will probably run the Ferodo DS2500s for now, get through my first few events, and re-evaluate what kind of race pad to run once I have a better sense of how much I am pushing them based on my pace/capability. I was thinking I wanted to jump straight into the race pads to save some $$, but I suppose that is my lack of experience talking. Thanks again!

I’d be careful with the DS2500 and check how much brake pad material is left after each session. Also, please install a high-temp (wet boiling temp) brake fluid to minimize the chance of boiling the brake fluid on track. Back to the DS2500…You can go through a set of DS2500 in one weekend!

Will this be your first trip to the track? Just an FYI, beginners are usually more demanding and abusive to the braking system than an advanced driver. Advanced drivers are ON (threshold braking) and then OFF (not exactly like a light switch), quickly ramping up to ~100% of the braking performance and using that performance for a much shorter duration. However, for a beginner, they’ll start braking much earlier and engaging the brake pedal much more gradually, resulting in a shallow ramp that reaches only ~70-80% of braking performance. This means the pads will have to stay in contact with the rotors for a much longer duration to absorb the kinetic energy, which allows more heat to be generated and transferred to the braking system. So…please install fresh high-temp normal viscosity brake fluid (Motul, Castrol, AP Racing, Red Line, etc.) and check your DS2500, or any other brand, pad thickness after each session.