Thinking about coming back to an M3

[minn19]

Originally Posted by kdphan

I just realized the 2016-2017 AMG GTS is within the same price range of the above cars.

That would be a fun/bad ass car.

[kdphan]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Is that also what happened to the GS-F? I remember you had that as well.

Which is why none of our suggestions will work for you unless you identify yourself what you like about cars you drive.

I test drove the Cayman GTS, as well as a 911 T, and 911 S to replace my x5m. The cayman is simply too small of a car for me even though it drove great, I was blown away by the 911. Feels light, great size, great practicality for a 2+2, rwd rear engine traction, great tranny, great engine, etc.

I remember getting the GS-F because the deal was too great to pass up.
Never buy a car just because a deal is too good to pass up

We have 2 crossover SUVs in the house so this is my fun car. That's why i'm even considering 2 seaters.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by minn19

Different model number, different engines and you are the one claiming they put the GT4 suspension in the current 718. How is this just a facelift?



IIRC it was never this bad, but after this conversation I'm tending to agree. He used to be under a different user name though right?

So adding 3 numbers makes it a new model number? That almost Like saying an m3 with Competition is a completely different model.

Since your Porsche history is lacking, the 718 was a very successful 4 cylinder race car many decades ago, and the switch the 718 Cayman (notice how the model name didn’t change?) was simply due to the 4 cylinder.

Not worth arguing with you but fact remains the 718 GTS is insanely fast for its power to weight.

[kdphan]

Originally Posted by minn19

That would be a fun/bad ass car.

From the short research I've done I think the deep depreciation has already set in at around 50%.

It's a true AMG car so depreciation should not be too bad the next few years. Planning to only keep it for 2 years.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by kdphan

From the short research I've done I think the deep depreciation has already set in at around 50%.

It's a true AMG car so depreciation should not be too bad the next few years. Planning to only keep it for 2 years.

Amgs have typically bad depreciation because of massive changes mid cycle and larger volume. GT may not as much due to small sales volume but the new gt has completely revamped interior and improved traction control.

I would visit turo and drive these cars. Figure 24-30k depreciation for 2 years of owning a slightly used 911 or Amg

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

So adding 3 numbers makes it a new model number? That almost Like saying an m3 with Competition is a completely different model.

Since your Porsche history is lacking, the 718 was a very successful 4 cylinder race car many decades ago, and the switch the 718 Cayman (notice how the model name didn’t change?) was simply due to the 4 cylinder.

Not worth arguing with you but fact remains the 718 GTS is insanely fast for its power to weight.

And you are the Porsche expert? It is pretty obvious it is more than just three letters.

What does a decades ago 718 have to do with anything? When did I say anything to the contrary about the 718 GTS being insanely fast for what it is either?

And by the way I told him to get a Porsche if he didn't need the practicality of an M3.

How is it saying an M3 comp is a completely different model? A base M3 and a ZCP M3 are both F80s.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by minn19

And you are the Porsche expert? It is pretty obvious it is more than just three letters.

What does a decades ago 718 have to do with anything? When did I say anything to the contrary about the 718 GTS being insanely fast for what it is either?

And by the way I told him to get a Porsche if he didn't need the practicality of an M3.

How is it saying an M3 comp is a completely different model? A base M3 and a ZCP M3 are both F80s.

Yes, I’d call myself a bit of a knowledgeable person on them. If you need further details on why, feel free to PM me.

The 718 is internally called the 981.2 so how else would you describe it other than a facelift? The 991.2 got new motors also and are not a “new” model but a facelift. I see no distinct bifurcation between the two.

The decades ago history was the reason they added “718” because it harkens back to that turbo 4 race car. It was a way to tie in the 4 cylinder to their history.

My comment was tongue in cheek in that the competition car got a bunch of tweaked components but isn’t a whole new model.

[kdphan]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Amgs have typically bad depreciation because of massive changes mid cycle and larger volume. GT may not as much due to small sales volume but the new gt has completely revamped interior and improved traction control.

I would visit turo and drive these cars. Figure 24-30k depreciation for 2 years of owning a slightly used 911 or Amg

$24k depreciation over 2 years isn't too bad.
But I can't imagine the GTS being in the low 50k range in 2 years.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by kdphan

$24k depreciation over 2 years isn't too bad.
But I can't imagine the GTS being in the low 50k range in 2 years.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I am assuming you are looking at a slightly used AMG GT S, maybe a couple of years old with 12-20k miles which should be around 95-105k use, add tax and registration ( add about 11% in CA) you should be close to 110k otd with some bargaining. Drive it for 24 months, and sell it for about 75k-80k.

If you are instead looking at a 4 year old amg gts with 25-35k miles, then your depreciation level has tapered off and it will be less. maybe 15k for 2 years (assuming decent miles driven not garage queen).

[kdphan]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Correct me if I'm wrong, I am assuming you are looking at a slightly used AMG GT S, maybe a couple of years old with 12-20k miles which should be around 95-105k use, add tax and registration ( add about 11% in CA) you should be close to 110k otd with some bargaining. Drive it for 24 months, and sell it for about 75k-80k.

If you are instead looking at a 4 year old amg gts with 25-35k miles, then your depreciation level has tapered off and it will be less. maybe 15k for 2 years (assuming decent miles driven not garage queen).

I'm looking at 2017 model years since 2016 had some issues. Having a longer warranty kinda helps.

warranty would be up by the time I sell it.

2017 are going for around 85k +/- a few thousand.

Let's say $93k OTD. Drive it 2 years and sell for $70k. 50% of original msrp after 4 years is what I estimated.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by kdphan

I'm looking at 2017 model years since 2016 had some issues. Having a longer warranty kinda helps.

warranty would be up by the time I sell it.

2017 are going for around 85k +/- a few thousand.

Let's say $93k OTD. Drive it 2 years and sell for $70k. 50% of original msrp after 4 years is what I estimated.

Sounds about right, but I do not see any 2017's for less than 90k here in SoCal, especially low mileage ones. There's a 29k mile 2016 at a merc dealership for 89k, but that is a bit high mileage and the car is 3-4 years old.

Perhaps the market is softer where you are. Surprising how badly these AMG's depreciated considering they cost 130k or so new.

There's a similar thread going on right now on rennlist- check it out:

https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1125...et-used-3.html

[kdphan]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Sounds about right, but I do not see any 2017's for less than 90k here in SoCal, especially low mileage ones. There's a 29k mile 2016 at a merc dealership for 89k, but that is a bit high mileage and the car is 3-4 years old.

Perhaps the market is softer where you are. Surprising how badly these AMG's depreciated considering they cost 130k or so new.

There's a similar thread going on right now on rennlist- check it out:

https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1125...et-used-3.html

Was looking at that thread as well.

I see a lot of high mileage GTS as well. I guess people aren't afraid to put miles on them. Which is a good thing.

Depreciation slows down once it hits the 50% mark. This is what I'm hoping for.

[Darth One]

I’m a longtime Porsche and BMW owner, haven’t been able to bring myself yet to get into AMG ownership. Even so, i have no problem admitting that the AMG GT’s are more special than the other cars on your list

[csbear]

If not going sedan, by ranking I would go:

1. 2016-2017 AMG GTS <-- I like that idea with the depreciation. Something a little exotic. Great engine obviously.
2. 991.2 S <-- If within budget, of course.
3. 718 GTS
4. Base 991.2

I just couldn't do a base 991.2 over the 718 GTS, even though I am not the biggest fan of the 4 cyl turbo. (I came from a 981 GT4, so the aural discrepancy between the two is magnified.)

My brother has a 991 GTS and I greatly preferred driving the GT4 over his car. Even though my car was a GT.

But even just being around Rennlist, people really love the 718 GTS. And I believe the exhaust note has been somewhat improved for that car. (I haven't driven one)

[kdphan]

I need to find a dealership with an AMG GTS to test drive. Nothing around me.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by csbear

If not going sedan, by ranking I would go:

1. 2016-2017 AMG GTS <-- I like that idea with the depreciation. Something a little exotic. Great engine obviously.
2. 991.2 S <-- If within budget, of course.
3. 718 GTS
4. Base 991.2

I just couldn't do a base 991.2 over the 718 GTS, even though I am not the biggest fan of the 4 cyl turbo. (I came from a 981 GT4, so the aural discrepancy between the two is magnified.)

My brother has a 991 GTS and I greatly preferred driving the GT4 over his car. Even though my car was a GT.

But even just being around Rennlist, people really love the 718 GTS. And I believe the exhaust note has been somewhat improved for that car. (I haven't driven one)

I think it depends on the age of the person, as someone in their 40's I find the Cayman a bit juvenile vs the 911, with the pricing of the Cayman GTS approaching 90k, it does not seem very much off a base 991. Although dealers are discounting the caymans, as they are not selling. Anytime I see an older gen Cayman, I just think how the styling has not aged well vs a 911. The used market is not as kind to the Caymans either, unless it is a GT4.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by kdphan

Was looking at that thread as well.

I see a lot of high mileage GTS as well. I guess people aren't afraid to put miles on them. Which is a good thing.

Depreciation slows down once it hits the 50% mark. This is what I'm hoping for.

The GTS cars don’t deprecate much especially the 991.1 GTS models and more so for Targas. Even a high mileage GTS is around 90k and likely had an msrp of around 120 and those cars are now 4 years old - but holding around 75% or more. Cars with more options still go for 110-120 with new stickers in the 130 plus range.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by csbear

If not going sedan, by ranking I would go:

1. 2016-2017 AMG GTS <-- I like that idea with the depreciation. Something a little exotic. Great engine obviously.
2. 991.2 S <-- If within budget, of course.
3. 718 GTS
4. Base 991.2

I just couldn't do a base 991.2 over the 718 GTS, even though I am not the biggest fan of the 4 cyl turbo. (I came from a 981 GT4, so the aural discrepancy between the two is magnified.)

My brother has a 991 GTS and I greatly preferred driving the GT4 over his car. Even though my car was a GT.

But even just being around Rennlist, people really love the 718 GTS. And I believe the exhaust note has been somewhat improved for that car. (I haven't driven one)

I nearly bought an AMG GT S before getting my Miami Blue 991.2S. Absolutely incredible car. It takes some getting used to the long good and overall larger feeling dimensions as I drove it back to back with a 991.24S and the dichotomy between the two is clear. The C63S coupe feels very much like what you’d imagine an AMG GT with a back seat to be so I’d possibly consider one of them OP as well if you did need that back seat.

[csbear]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I think it depends on the age of the person, as someone in their 40's I find the Cayman a bit juvenile vs the 911, with the pricing of the Cayman GTS approaching 90k, it does not seem very much off a base 991. Although dealers are discounting the caymans, as they are not selling. Anytime I see an older gen Cayman, I just think how the styling has not aged well vs a 911. The used market is not as kind to the Caymans either, unless it is a GT4.

I am 44 and wouldn't say the Cayman is "juvenile."
From an older article: "In the U.S., the typical 911 buyer [has an] average age of 52. The Cayman/Boxster buyer [has an] average age of 47."

Considering the Cayman chassis is superior to the 911, Porsche goes out of their way to stunt the 718... by giving it a 4 cyl turbo. That is my main issue with the car, and I believe a problem in why it isn't selling well. I agree the front of the 718 is not as good looking as the 981 or previous gen Cayman.

However, the Cayman/Boxster have never sold well because they don't have backseats. ALL cars of all manufacturers lacking backseats don't sell well. Go to the other side of the scale, and the Macan and Cayenne sell so much more than the Cayman and 911.

The moment a Cayman got a 911 engine (in the GT4), we saw how big the demand was. And I believe it is even larger now for the 718 GT4.

If the GT4 was not a limited production car, and was created in the same amounts as the base 911, what do you think would happen to Cayman sales?

Rennlist and Planet 9 poll of 981 age demographics: Nothing wrong being in your 50s and trying to feel like a kid again!

[nicknaz]

GT or bust OP. My vote is whatever latest Gt2/3/4 you can afford. Might as well go for it and get the p car most focused on fun.

I would normally include 911 turbo but that seems close to the GTR that you got bored of.

lighter weight and natural aspirated should be different enough from gtr to minimize risk of overlap

Edit: if you have multiple other cars and don't need the back seat, I don't see why you are considering m3, which in my opinion shines best as an "only car" for someone who needs the double duty capability.

My GUESS is the gtr got boring because it wasn't visceral enough, so you need something that is "always on" that never lets you forget it's all about fun driving.

For me, something about getting into a fixed back racing shell style seat is always exciting. And feeling a heavier effort clutch and suspension with most or all of the rubber bushings removed. Those little touches give a sense of occasion to a drive.

[kdphan]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

GT or bust OP. My vote is whatever latest Gt2/3/4 you can afford. Might as well go for it and get the p car most focused on fun.

I would normally include 911 turbo but that seems close to the GTR that you got bored of.

lighter weight and natural aspirated should be different enough from gtr to minimize risk of overlap

Edit: if you have multiple other cars and don't need the back seat, I don't see why you are considering m3, which in my opinion shines best as an "only car" for someone who needs the double duty capability.

My GUESS is the gtr got boring because it wasn't visceral enough, so you need something that is "always on" that never lets you forget it's all about fun driving.

For me, something about getting into a fixed back racing shell style seat is always exciting. And feeling a heavier effort clutch and suspension with most or all of the rubber bushings removed. Those little touches give a sense of occasion to a drive.

Remember I plan to drive this to work daily, 40 miles round trip.
I’ve taken the M3 out of the equation and included the M4 with comp pkg.

Seems like 2018 M4 with comp/exec and under 25k miles are going for high 50’s now due to end of life cycle. This might save me a lot of $$.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by csbear

I am 44 and wouldn't say the Cayman is "juvenile."
From an older article: "In the U.S., the typical 911 buyer [has an] average age of 52. The Cayman/Boxster buyer [has an] average age of 47."

Considering the Cayman chassis is superior to the 911, Porsche goes out of their way to stunt the 718... by giving it a 4 cyl turbo. That is my main issue with the car, and I believe a problem in why it isn't selling well. I agree the front of the 718 is not as good looking as the 981 or previous gen Cayman.

However, the Cayman/Boxster have never sold well because they don't have backseats. ALL cars of all manufacturers lacking backseats don't sell well. Go to the other side of the scale, and the Macan and Cayenne sell so much more than the Cayman and 911.

The moment a Cayman got a 911 engine (in the GT4), we saw how big the demand was. And I believe it is even larger now for the 718 GT4.

If the GT4 was not a limited production car, and was created in the same amounts as the base 911, what do you think would happen to Cayman sales?

Rennlist and Planet 9 poll of 981 age demographics: Nothing wrong being in your 50s and trying to feel like a kid again!

Well said. I do see your points. Juvenile is not the correct word. Perhaps with the size and weight increase of the new 992, Porsche has some room to make the Cayman's engine match the chassis' abilities. Plus they are adding a hybrid to the 992 later so the future of the 911 as a pure sports car is in doubt, more of a GT car.

In the present however, I could not pull the trigger on the 718 without some serious regrets vs the 991.2 911.