Around town, M4 feels slower than 330 Loaner?

[///M-er-gized]

I was driving a Honda Civic about a year ago. The car is very quick from 0 to 25 MPH, so you might be fooled into thinking it's quicker when driving around town, but once you hit 25 MPH, you pretty much hit a brick wall when compared to the M3/M4.

I had an F30 335 before my M3. The 335 was NOT faster in any way. Period.

[avantix]

Ummmmm yeahhhhh NO. I had a 330 loaner this week until this evening while my car was at the dealer for almost 4 days doing oil change and disk shields. The 330 felt so slow compared to my 6MT M3 in the city. I won't even go into what it felt like on the highway. On another note I had a chance to play with the paddles in manual mode on the 330 and I'm so glad I didn't go the DCT way, I would have regretted it.

[DML]

I drove a 330 loaner, bringing it back was the highlight. It felt sluggish as hell to be honest. Sure the loaner wasn't an M6?

[AW BMW]

I had a 328 a while back for about 4 days, my M3 is a six speed. When I got in the 328 with the automatic, it felt very quick around town. I was surprised with how it felt. That feeling went away very quickly the second day, it was nowhere near as quick as the m3 in reality. I got extremely bored with the car on that second day, I could not wait to get back in the M. Once I got my car back, that 328 felt like a slug. The sporty nature and sure footed ness of the f80 is in another world compared to that 328. I felt very fortunate to be driving my M again. I just think sometimes our minds trick us with what we feel when something is new to us. Just don't be fooled, the M3 is a beast compared to the non M models.

[Dethsupp0rt]

Drugs are bad, mkay?

[XsltAnalyst]

Car and driver: 2017 330i:
Zero to 60 mph: 5.4 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.0 sec @ 100 mph

Car and driver: 2012 335i:
Zero to 60 mph: 5.3 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.8 sec @ 103 mph

That's amazing considering the 330i is almost as fast as the early F30 335i.

I had a X5 3.5i loaner and it had a decent pace in sport mode, below 40. I test drove i3 once and it was pretty zippy, and its 0-30 is actually same as E90 M3.

Under 60 is not where the F8x shines, as plenty of cars with less HP and better traction can keep up in the real world.

Where the F8x shines is on the autobahn, as most cars run out of steam after 60 while our cars keep pulling like it's in a vacuum.

[MNoob]

Originally Posted by aerostar

I got a 330i loaner and I can say that it doesn't feel fast....at all.

ditto. I've had a 330 loaner and it was a super frustrating car to drive. painfully slow.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by nycaudioman

I know this post will elicit some harsh flaming, but it is about psychology and so I actually look forward to the responses. I recently brought my M4 in for the 1200 mile service and was given a 330 loaner. As you may know, that engine is a tiny 4-cylinder.

But surprisingly, in some way, around town it felt faster than my M4. I am not by any means saying it is objectively faster - it is not obviously - but by seat of the pants and effort level to get up to around-town speed it was snappy in a way the M4 does not feel.

Since the 330 is not faster objectively by any means, I have some theories here:

1. The 330 feels faster because it is super quiet. The power just comes on unexpectedly from 0 up to 30/40 MPH. Sounds and feels effortless.

2. The automatic transmission crawl that starts when you lift your foot off the brake (compared to the DCT not being engaged) gives an impression of the car pulling forward earlier.

3. The M4 transmission gearing or settings (I am usually in Sport with the transmission in the middle setting) affects the feel.

Again, feedback is most appreciated, especially from anyone else who had the odd feeling of getting in a 330 loaner and saying "this feels zippy."

First, there's no reason at all for you to get flamed, except perhaps by M4 fanboys who are also ignorant.

The reason the comparatively lowly 330i feels quicker and more responsive than the M4 DCT in city traffic is because it is quicker and more responsive. It's not your imagination.

The reasons you postulate all have weight, but the single primary reason for the difference is that the 330i has a torque converter, and the M4 doesn't.

A torque converter does two things. First, it allows the engine to rev to whatever the "stall speed" is at a given throttle setting. Stall speed is defined as what the torque converter will allow, rev-wise, while the car is at rest with whatever throttle setting.

Thus, the engine is making whatever power the engine is capable of at that rpm with whatever throttle setting. Contrast this with a twin-clutch auto, which while just lazing around off the line will begin to engage at a typically lower rpm, thus making less power than the same car would make with a torque converter.

Secondly, and more importantly, torque converters multiply torque at stall by a factor of as much as 2:1, although something more along the lines of 1:5 to 1 is more typical. Multiplying torque by 1:5 gives you 1.5 times more acceleration - period.

The fact is, nobody has come up with a better around-town box than a traditional torque converter.

Ever wonder why that little old lady in the Buick tends to kick your ass off a light?

The torque converter is why.

Out on track, it's DSG/DCT/DKG all the way, but just lazing around, it's the little old lady in the torque-converter Buick.

Bruce

[avantix]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

First, there's no reason at all for you to get flamed, except perhaps by M4 fanboys who are also ignorant.

The reason the comparatively lowly 330i feels quicker and more responsive than the M4 DCT in city traffic is because it is quicker and more responsive. It's not your imagination.

The reasons you postulate all have weight, but the single primary reason for the difference is that the 330i has a torque converter, and the M4 doesn't.

A torque converter does two things. First, it allows the engine to rev to whatever the "stall speed" is at a given throttle setting. Stall speed is defined as what the torque converter will allow, rev-wise, while the car is at rest with whatever throttle setting.

Thus, the engine is making whatever power the engine is capable of at that rpm with whatever throttle setting. Contrast this with a twin-clutch auto, which while just lazing around off the line will begin to engage at a typically lower rpm, thus making less power than the same car would make with a torque converter.

Secondly, and more importantly, torque converters multiply torque at stall by a factor of as much as 2:1, although something more along the lines of 1:5 to 1 is more typical. Multiplying torque by 1:5 gives you 1.5 times more acceleration - period.

The fact is, nobody has come up with a better around-town box than a traditional torque converter.

Ever wonder why that little old lady in the Buick tends to kick your ass off a light?

The torque converter is why.

Out on track, it's DSG/DCT/DKG all the way, but just lazing around, it's the little old lady in the torque-converter Buick.

Bruce

Makes sense thanks for explaining it. Off topic I have to ask how much spam you get by using your email address as a username on forums.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by avantix

Makes sense thanks for explaining it. Off topic I have to ask how much spam you get by using your email address as a username on forums.

I have a different email address now, but the only "spam" I ever got while using that address was from people warning me about spam.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

"Secondly, and more importantly, torque converters multiply torque at stall by a factor of as much as 2:1, although something more along the lines of 1:5 to 1 is more typical. Multiplying torque by 1:5 gives you 1.5 times more acceleration - period."

Wow. I just did a little reading on this topic, and discovered that torque converters have done some fine development since I was paying attention. Apparently they're now typically multiplying torque in the 1.8 - 2.5:1 range at stall.

Thumbs up, sez me.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

First, there's no reason at all for you to get flamed, except perhaps by M4 fanboys who are also ignorant.

The reason the comparatively lowly 330i feels quicker and more responsive than the M4 DCT in city traffic is because it is quicker and more responsive. It's not your imagination.

The reasons you postulate all have weight, but the single primary reason for the difference is that the 330i has a torque converter, and the M4 doesn't.

A torque converter does two things. First, it allows the engine to rev to whatever the "stall speed" is at a given throttle setting. Stall speed is defined as what the torque converter will allow, rev-wise, while the car is at rest with whatever throttle setting.

Thus, the engine is making whatever power the engine is capable of at that rpm with whatever throttle setting. Contrast this with a twin-clutch auto, which while just lazing around off the line will begin to engage at a typically lower rpm, thus making less power than the same car would make with a torque converter.

Secondly, and more importantly, torque converters multiply torque at stall by a factor of as much as 2:1, although something more along the lines of 1:5 to 1 is more typical. Multiplying torque by 1:5 gives you 1.5 times more acceleration - period.

The fact is, nobody has come up with a better around-town box than a traditional torque converter.

Ever wonder why that little old lady in the Buick tends to kick your ass off a light?

The torque converter is why.

Out on track, it's DSG/DCT/DKG all the way, but just lazing around, it's the little old lady in the torque-converter Buick.

Bruce

I would agree with the "more responsive", but not with the "quicker" statement.

The torque converter will certainly make the 330i feel peppier off the line with a more seamless transition from rest, but the engine torque and gearing advantage of the M3 will dispense the torque converter multiplying effect as soon as the cars get moving. Futher, the M3/4 has rather grippier tires than the 330i and cannot even put all the power to the ground in 1st gear, so more torque to the drive wheels would net help much in making it quicker off the line.

Case in point, according to C&D, the DCT M4 is a full 0.4 seconds quicker to 30mph than the 8AT 330i:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/amv-prod-ca...015-bmw-m4.pdf
https://s3.amazonaws.com/amv-prod-ca...mw330i2017.pdf

[///M4ster Yoda]

Sorry. I've had 330 xDrive loaners. Those things are slow as shit. My mother in laws Camry will take it off the line. I think you might need to get out of grandpa mode OP Try sport + throttle, Euro MDM mode and lead foot.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I would agree with the "more responsive", but not with the "quicker" statement.

The torque converter will certainly make the 330i feel peppier off the line with a more seamless transition from rest, but the engine torque and gearing advantage of the M3 will dispense the torque converter multiplying effect as soon as the cars get moving. Futher, the M3/4 has rather grippier tires than the 330i and cannot even put all the power to the ground in 1st gear, so more torque to the drive wheels would net help much in making it quicker off the line.

Case in point, according to C&D, the DCT M4 is a full 0.4 seconds quicker to 30mph than the 8AT 330i:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/amv-prod-ca...015-bmw-m4.pdf
https://s3.amazonaws.com/amv-prod-ca...mw330i2017.pdf

First of all, if the car is more responsive off the line, then it actually is quicker at very low speeds and part throttle - period.

Secondly, having re-read the OP's statements, I still believe he was talking about just lazing around in traffic, as I mentioned. Y'know, maybe up to ten mph, or maybe as much as 15-20 mph, all at part throttle.

Thirdly, I don't know why you're discussing drag racing times to speed, as it's obviously clear that the M will devastate the 330i from any speed to any other speed in a race - but we're not talking about that here.

Bruce

PS - In order for you to believe that the M4 rules under these conditions, you have to believe that the OP is strictly imagining things, which I admit is possible, but I judge that as unlikely.

[RickFLM4]

OP referred to getting up to "around town speeds" so unless he was in a school zone or sitting in city bumper to bumper traffic, personally I interpreted that as more than 10-20 mph. More like 30-40 mph.

[NMT12]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

First of all, if the car is more responsive off the line, then it actually is quicker at very low speeds and part throttle - period.

Secondly, having re-read the OP's statements, I still believe he was talking about just lazing around in traffic, as I mentioned. Y'know, maybe up to ten mph, or maybe as much as 15-20 mph, all at part throttle.

Thirdly, I don't know why you're discussing drag racing times to speed, as it's obviously clear that the M will devastate the 330i from any speed to any other speed in a race - but we're not talking about that here.

Bruce

PS - In order for you to believe that the M4 rules under these conditions, you have to believe that the OP is strictly imagining things, which I admit is possible, but I judge that as unlikely.

I can confirm this. Where i'm from, you can't get anywhere above 30mph even on a good day due to heavy traffic (except on weekends when the roads are less clogged with trucks and motorcycles), the 330i feels so much more responsive and less sluggish than the m4. In my honest opinion, the 330 is an overall better city car as opposed to the M4. But then again, every driving condition is different, and if OP is talking about the 330 being more responsive at slow 10-20mph traffic, then i couldn't agree more. But if it's on a clear and empty road or drag times as Bruce mentioned, no doubt the 330 will be devastated, in absolutely every situation.

- I drive the 330 daily, above is just my honest opinion and not based on any actual research

[MNoob]

wow. sluggish just never comes to mind in my m3. and I've had a 330 loaner for a week or so. I can't imagine how an m3(4) can be described as sluggish in comparison. my impression of the 330 (in comparison to my car) is that it is a floaty, dose diving, spongy throttle, buzz muffin. compared to, say, my wife's mdx, sure it is sporty.

[MNoob]

wow. sluggish just never comes to mind in my m3. and I've had a 330 loaner for a week or so. I can't imagine how an m3(4) can be described as sluggish in comparison. my impression of the 330 (in comparison to my car) is that it is a floaty, dose diving, spongy throttle, buzz muffin. compared to, say, my wife's mdx, sure it is sporty.

[NMT12]

Originally Posted by MNoob

wow. sluggish just never comes to mind in my m3. and I've had a 330 loaner for a week or so. I can't imagine how an m3(4) can be described as sluggish in comparison. my impression of the 330 (in comparison to my car) is that it is a floaty, dose diving, spongy throttle, buzz muffin. compared to, say, my wife's mdx, sure it is sporty.

It certainly is not sluggish. But i live in a city where everyone is bumper to bumper and traffic only crawls at 0-20mph (on ocassion, you sit at 0mph for about 5 seconds, every 10 seconds ) and this happens on the daily, plus its a free for all to find a lane that actually moves. Having a car that goes by lifting off the brakes actually makes it feel zippier, rather than the F8x where you need to gently hit the throttle to move giving it a sluggish impression at EXTREMELY LOW SPEEDS. but then again, my country is an absolute EXTREME example, and in any other case where traffic isn't as bad, i agree the F8x's are better in every single way imaginable.

As to the 330 being all that you described, i really can't compare since i modded the car after about SEVEN miles after driving the actual car out of the dealership. (suspension,brakes,wheels you name it )

FYI, It takes me about 1 hour to drive 16 miles during the day and an additional hour during rush hour or if there is an accident. So what i'm giving is my experience in a very heavy traffic situation

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by NMT12

It certainly is not sluggish. But i live in a city where everyone is bumper to bumper and traffic only crawls at 0-20mph (on ocassion, you sit at 0mph for about 5 seconds, every 10 seconds ) and this happens on the daily, plus its a free for all to find a lane that actually moves. Having a car that goes by lifting off the brakes actually makes it feel zippier, rather than the F8x where you need to gently hit the throttle to move giving it a sluggish impression at EXTREMELY LOW SPEEDS. but then again, my country is an absolute EXTREME example, and in any other case where traffic isn't as bad, i agree the F8x's are better in every single way imaginable.

As to the 330 being all that you described, i really can't compare since i modded the car after about SEVEN miles after driving the actual car out of the dealership. (suspension,brakes,wheels you name it )

FYI, It takes me about 1 hour to drive 16 miles during the day and an additional hour during rush hour or if there is an accident. So what i'm giving is my experience in a very heavy traffic situation

Your country is Seattle Washington? Now while I agree the West Coast does seem like another country to some Unless I'm missing something? It still is in the good ol US of A

[NMT12]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Your country is Seattle Washington? Now while I agree the West Coast does seem like another country to some Unless I'm missing something? It still is in the good ol US of A

I go to university in Seattle, But i'm from Jakarta, Indonesia I'm mostly in Seattle though

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

First of all, if the car is more responsive off the line, then it actually is quicker at very low speeds and part throttle - period.

Secondly, having re-read the OP's statements, I still believe he was talking about just lazing around in traffic, as I mentioned. Y'know, maybe up to ten mph, or maybe as much as 15-20 mph, all at part throttle.

Thirdly, I don't know why you're discussing drag racing times to speed, as it's obviously clear that the M will devastate the 330i from any speed to any other speed in a race - but we're not talking about that here.

Bruce

PS - In order for you to believe that the M4 rules under these conditions, you have to believe that the OP is strictly imagining things, which I admit is possible, but I judge that as unlikely.

We might just be getting hung up on semantics here.

But I don't see a 330i being faster than a properly driven M3/4. IMO, the only way to compare how fast they are is in a WOT drag race. Partial throttle is a pointless comparison. If we're saying one is "faster" than the other for a given throttle application, does it really mean anything ? I say just apply more throttle on the other and it becomes the faster one.

What I mean by "responsive" is a more prompt response at initial tip in when launching from rest. With the DCT, there is an inherent delay before the clutch is engaged after throttle tip in, which can make it feel sluggish off the line. When being heavy footed, there will be an even longer delay because the DCT will wait for the engine revs to climb before releasing the clutch. With a torque converter, the car will start to move forward as soon as the brake is released, regardless of how much throttle is applied. Hence more "seamless". But there are ways to work around this with DCT, by slighly tapping the gas pedal just before accelerating to get the clutch to engage, and then roll onto the throttle for a smoother launch. Once the clutch is engaged, the S55 is way more responsive to throttle input than the B48 - Period .

If the OP is driving his DCT like any other automatic, his perceptions might be true. But having very recently (two weeks ago) driven a 330i xDrive 8AT loaner for two days, I can attest my DCT M4, when properly driven, is in no way slower than the the 330i.