Cost to track: Porsche vs BMW, chime in if you’ve upgraded

[NYG]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

hopefully we can do a track day together this season

One of my goals for the remainder of this season!

Any shot you're hitting the Glen with NASA end of August?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by NYG

One of my goals for the remainder of this season!

Any shot you're hitting the Glen with NASA end of August?

I'll text my calendar! Not doing the NASA event, you have to sign up with PCA, you want a Pcar anyway

[NYG]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I'll text my calendar! Not doing the NASA event, you have to sign up with PCA, you want a Pcar anyway

I want to stop P'ing in my car at every corner.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by NYG

One of my goals for the remainder of this season!

Any shot you're hitting the Glen with NASA end of August?

I think the M3 CS is just so bloody fast, particularly compared to the Civic F8x which the brakes were originally designed for. There is a significant difference between anchoring down from 155 compared to 140. Take bus stop at WGI for example, your going from 150 to 80, that is a huge braking zone to haul 3700lbs of car down with driver, particularly given how front biased the brakes are. It's also a massive thermal shock as the brakes spent the preceding 30 seconds since turn 1 doing nothing.

I'm 100% in for the Glen in August.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

How many events were on those calipers, and which tracks?

We don't really know what pace you're running out on track, but we can look at your "best" laptimes in this thread for insight. To me it seems like you're either overbraking, threshold braking for a full session without letting up, trail braking too long, or less likely over driving MDM mode. It just doesn't make sense if you're only getting an hour outta brake fluid either.

I think most of the guys in here would agree that the M3 is far from a racecar, but it's pretty darn good in stock form. That topic has already been beat to death in other threads, but Shadow and the others make some great points in supporting that thought.

I think the conclusion of NYG's brake issues on the stock setup is that he's too fast. 2:10 at WGI is pretty fast and I do not think the stock brakes can take it, even with proper pads etc.

It also possible that a very experienced tracker would be able to drive faster with the stock brakes than NYG, just because of less slowing down of the car, but at the same time I would not bother finding out myself. My E92 had a full PFC BBK before it hit the track a single time, my F80 CS had a front BBK before the first time and a full BBK for the second time.

If we are trying to learn how to drive fast it is logical and normal to over-consume brakes and other components. Whether a pro driver can drive suboptimal components faster than all of us is irrelevant, as to gain that experience the pro driver had to go through the same phases we're working on.

My street E92 has street brakes and I would never swap them for any 'mountain road' use, as they are excellent for their intended use.
My two track M3s have full top shelf BBKs, it was their first and most important mod.

It doesn't matter which stock brakes could come on my car, I would still swap them before any track use. I've destroyed a set of CCBs on the GTS by using them as if they were iron brakes. If I had a M2C with their sweet giant rotors I would not even track them one day, they'd be swapped for PFC BBK

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I think the conclusion of NYG's brake issues on the stock setup is that he's too fast. 2:10 at WGI is pretty fast and I do not think the stock brakes can take it, even with proper pads etc.

It also possible that a very experienced tracker would be able to drive faster with the stock brakes than NYG, just because of less slowing down of the car, but at the same time I would not bother finding out myself. My E92 had a full PFC BBK before it hit the track a single time, my F80 CS had a front BBK before the first time and a full BBK for the second time.

If we are trying to learn how to drive fast it is logical and normal to over-consume brakes and other components. Whether a pro driver can drive suboptimal components faster than all of us is irrelevant, as to gain that experience the pro driver had to go through the same phases we're working on.

My street E92 has street brakes and I would never swap them for any 'mountain road' use, as they are excellent for their intended use.
My two track M3s have full top shelf BBKs, it was their first and most important mod.

It doesn't matter which stock brakes could come on my car, I would still swap them before any track use. I've destroyed a set of CCBs on the GTS by using them as if they were iron brakes. If I had a M2C with their sweet giant rotors I would not even track them one day, they'd be swapped for PFC BBK

I guess that was my point in my first comment...he's actually not *uber* fast (yet). Of course fast is relative and no one is winning at HPDE's but I am wondering if he could develop other areas of his driving while taking it easier on the brakes. Heck I ran 2:09 @ WGI in July with a mostly stock ZCP and I've only been there twice. I'm sure a pro driver or someone more familiar with WGI would run even faster than that without much issue.

But to your point and even to the points I like to make about those cording the stock MPSS's...is that it's almost foolish to run the stock system since you're bound to ruin the finish on em and probably instill some permanent heat deformation into the calipers. Had I been smarter (well I did consider it, but talked myself out of it) I would have only done one event with the stock steel setup and went straight to a used BBK. You can always take it off before getting rid of the car and make most of your money back anyway.

Heck even the stock brakes on the 1LE don't like the abuse. Sure they're way better than the 4P on the M3 but they're still not purpose-built race calipers IMHO. They're already changing color after two events . Really it seems like all these cars just need an aftermarket cooling system to improve the longevity and performance.

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by NYG

8-10? Limerock, NJMP & Watkins Glen mostly. Poconos somewhere in there.

Overbraking: Very possible but the extent of it would not be that significant to render these brakes useless. The overbraking would also be a symptom of lack of confidence in the system. The majority of the heat will be introduced on the initial change in kinetic energy.

Threshold braking for a full session: No because they fall off well before the session ends.

Trailbraking too long: I don't trailbrake enough to be honest. Need the most work on this.

MDM: I only run T/C off on the track.

Not trying to dive into the topic any further just my supporting points relative to the topic and watching every single one of my track regular friends/acquaintances never dealing with this issue (excluding F8x guys who deal with the same thing --- not all but the ones running the fastest laps do). I love my F8x, I'm just pissed that BMW thinks it's cool to put anus brembos with 4 pistons in it.

Hmm that is interesting, can't say I agree with you but to each their own.

Remember that most of the people at HPDE's are pretty slow drivers, so just because your friends don't have an issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist with that particular setup in the right driver's hands. PCA is the best example of this.

Either way, I enjoyed reading everyone's insight into the main topic and slightly off-topic components.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by Montaver

I think the M3 CS is just so bloody fast, particularly compared to the Civic F8x which the brakes were originally designed for. There is a significant difference between anchoring down from 155 compared to 140. Take bus stop at WGI for example, your going from 150 to 80, that is a huge braking zone to haul 3700lbs of car down with driver, particularly given how front biased the brakes are. It's also a massive thermal shock as the brakes spent the preceding 30 seconds since turn 1 doing nothing.

I'm 100% in for the Glen in August.

I'm already registered. See you there bro! You going to LRP?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

I guess that was my point in my first comment...he's actually not *uber* fast (yet). Of course fast is relative and no one is winning at HPDE's but I am wondering if he could develop other areas of his driving while taking it easier on the brakes. Heck I ran 2:09 @ WGI in July with a mostly stock ZCP and I've only been there twice. I'm sure a pro driver or someone more familiar with WGI would run even faster than that without much issue.

But to your point and even to the points I like to make about those cording the stock MPSS's...is that it's almost foolish to run the stock system since you're bound to ruin the finish on em and probably instill some permanent heat deformation into the calipers. Had I been smarter (well I did consider it, but talked myself out of it) I would have only done one event with the stock steel setup and went straight to a used BBK. You can always take it off before getting rid of the car and make most of your money back anyway.

Heck even the stock brakes on the 1LE don't like the abuse. Sure they're way better than the 4P on the M3 but they're still not purpose-built race calipers IMHO. They're already changing color after two events . Really it seems like all these cars just need an aftermarket cooling system to improve the longevity and performance.

What do you mean no one is winning HPDEs? Has my whole life been in vain?

Good job with the 2:09, that's a good time.

I'm not surprised to hear the 1LE's brakes don't like serious track use... there really is no solution other than moving to a BBK. Lots of cars have pretty, large calipers but they aren't designed for track use. Hopefully in your case you can solve it with just cooling

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by NYG

I'm already registered. See you there bro! You going to LRP?

Probably a crime to admit, but I don't really like LRP very much.. trying to scout out a few other July options first. HoD have some WGI dates in July but it's on a Mon/Tues which is somewhat inconvenient.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Montaver

I think the M3 CS is just so bloody fast, particularly compared to the Civic F8x which the brakes were originally designed for. There is a significant difference between anchoring down from 155 compared to 140. Take bus stop at WGI for example, your going from 150 to 80, that is a huge braking zone to haul 3700lbs of car down with driver, particularly given how front biased the brakes are. It's also a massive thermal shock as the brakes spent the preceding 30 seconds since turn 1 doing nothing.

I'm 100% in for the Glen in August.

Not quite in that way.

While the CS is definitely faster than a civic around a track, the top speed it reaches on each straight is only marginally faster. I've got plenty of data log to compare my 2015 civic M4 to my 2019 M4cs that shows this, the CS is only a couple of mph faster at the end of long straights. It is in the corners and how it picks-up speed out of corners that it makes time. So one could even argue that the CS is less demanding on the brakes than a civic M3/4 because it needs to brake less going into turns .

And all that cooling in the straight is actually beneficial before that hard braking zone .

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by NYG

All I can offer is my personal experience and the experience within among usual track buddies. I just replaced the stock setup with an AP Racing BBK because I'm tired of having every track day ruined. Here's some photos:

Front Left Caliper - Four pistons is inadequate for a car this fast and this heavy. Slower cars well below the price range of the CS come with 6 piston setups. Calipers weigh over 8 lbs, they hold a lot of heat and the F8x is a terrible platform for brake cooling. The vents inside your wheel well are blocked by a radiator. You'll have to modify your front bumper to get decent brake cooling unless you want to mount that 800$ duct and plastic inlet under your splitter only to rip it off in a corner. Aluminum pistons are crap. Dust boots and seals are completed roasted.

Brake Fluid after 1 hour and 20 minutes at Limerock Park in late October. New fluid prior to event.

Color of fresh fluid.

I'm not a professional racer, I don't drive for F1, so naturally my technique will have a slight impact on this. All I can tell you is that I threshold brake all the time and after 1-2 sessions, I've lost complete confidence in my brakes.

The first law of thermodynamics w/ non-conservative forces (drag, friction) still nets, more or less, the same heat energy which must be dissipated by the system from any driver decelerating from B to A in the same period of time.

My conclusion is that the stock brakes, given the brake cooling constraints, is completely inadequate for hard track use and will prevent you from really developing and improving your driving abilities.

I will add that removing the dust shield behind the rotor will significantly improve air flow. A brake shim will not lower overall temperatures because as noted above the heat energy remains the same BUT what it will do is delay/mitigate the transfer of heat between the pad/rotor into the caliper which will result in higher pad/rotor temps but lower caliper and brake fluid temps.

If you guys haven't experienced the same thing then I'm very jealous because nothing I did helped.

Regarding the brakes, experiences will vary. Driving style, track layout, use of DSC/MDM and driver experience all play a big part. For my part, I can attest that I've tracked on the stock F8X brakes with track pads (even on the OE fluid) for well over 100 track days at various tracks (LCMT/CMP/WGI/CTMP/ASE/ICAR/Sanair) and they have worked decently well for me. And those that know me will likely attest that I am not known to be slow around a track. Yes, my calipers are green, yes my dust seals are burnt and yes my fluid turns color, but the brakes still work fine for me. That being said, nothing wrong with upgrading to a BBK if one feels it is necessary for them.

Technique and driving style can make a huge difference though. I had a track buddy in our E9X days that kept cooking his brakes. He even upgraded to a BBK and still kept cooking his brakes. I also ran the stock brakes with track pads on my E92 and never had an issue, yet I was over 2 seconds faster than him.

The key point of discussion though is the running cost of a Porsche vs a our M3/4. A non-GT Porsche will likely need a fair bit of modifications for sustained track use. A least that's what my buddies that run P-cars tell me. One of them was compelled to install a BBK on his brand new 981 GTS because he cooked his brakes on his first time out with it. As an example, you mentioned that a GT3 is lighter and will therefore put less wear on its tires. Maybe, but have you seen the cost of those 20"/21" tires . Have you checked the cost of brakes pads on a GT3? I did look up running costs because I have and still am considering switching over to Porsche, and so far, it seems like it is 1.5x the running cost of an M3/4. SO even with the cost of a BBK, it is still less expensive to track an M3/4. The Porsche might still be very worth it for the driving experience though, but it sure ain't for the cost.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Probably a crime to admit, but I don't really like LRP very much.. trying to scout out a few other July options first. HoD have some WGI dates in July but it's on a Mon/Tues which is somewhat inconvenient.

I've never cared for LRP, or Mid Ohio, or Palmer, or NJMP, or Summit Point... don't feel bad

[adc]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Regarding the brakes, experiences will vary. Driving style, track layout, use of DSC/MDM and driver experience all play a big part. For my part, I can attest that I've tracked on the stock F8X brakes with track pads (even on the OE fluid) for well over 100 track days at various tracks (LCMT/CMP/WGI/CTMP/ASE/ICAR/Sanair) and they have worked decently well for me. And those that know me will likely attest that I am not known to be slow around a track. Yes, my calipers are green, yes my dust seals are burnt and yes my fluid turns color, but the brakes still work fine for me. That being said, nothing wrong with upgrading to a BBK if one feels it is necessary for them.

Technique and driving style can make a huge difference though. I had a track buddy in our E9X days that kept cooking his brakes. He even upgraded to a BBK and still kept cooking his brakes. I also ran the stock brakes with track pads on my E92 and never had an issue, yet I was over 2 seconds faster than him.

The key point of discussion though is the running cost of a Porsche vs a our M3/4. A non-GT Porsche will likely need a fair bit of modifications for sustained track use. A least that's what my buddies that run P-cars tell me. One of them was compelled to install a BBK on his brand new 981 GTS because he cooked his brakes on his first time out with it. As an example, you mentioned that a GT3 is lighter and will therefore put less wear on its tires. Maybe, but have you seen the cost of those 20"/21" tires . Have you checked the cost of brakes pads on a GT3? I did look up running costs because I have and still am considering switching over to Porsche, and so far, it seems like it is 1.5x the running cost of an M3/4. SO even with the cost of a BBK, it is still less expensive to track an M3/4. The Porsche might still be very worth it for the driving experience though, but it sure ain't for the cost.

This.

Discolored calipers, year old fluid and 2mm left on the rear pads notwithstanding, I still went a second faster than last time at VIR.

I’ll install cooling ducts next and see how far it can take me. If I’ll be so lucky to get faster still and reach a level where OEM isn’t safe anymore, I’ll pony up for a front BBK.

[FormulaMMM]

I'm one event in with a .2 GT3 manual, standard brakes, buckets. Way too early to provide detailed long-term cost comparison feedback, but here's what struck me re key components on a (105 heat index) day @ Sebring.

Dealer dialed in a streetable "track" alignment pre-purchase. Stock everything.

Brakes -- I double checked with the dealer post-purchase because after a few hundred street miles I was pretty sure they must be race pads. Mega dust, not a lot of bite when cold, nearly as noisy as my old RS29 pads after city driving. Dealer assured me they were stock.

After researching, believe the stock pads are Pagid, so that adds up…

Still approached the track day with some trepidation. Not needed -- zero fade, no deposits, absolute consistency all day. They are anchors.

Tires -- didn't observe much visual wear on the Cup 2's and no damage like when I chunked my GTS's pre-camber (thank God). But I'm sure the .2 RS owner on pg 1 of the thread is accurate in his 3-5 day forecast. Especially if you're not willing to work through the drop in traction.

But of note, Cup 2, and the Sport Maxx Race 2, which are the OE tire options, are not as track-focused and durable as some of our M options. In time there will probably be more available in OE GT3 sizing. They will of course be more expensive than 18's, but I can't see how RE-71R's, for example, wouldn't last equal or longer on the GT3 than they do on F8X.

I say that because I've never spent less time managing or thinking about tires on track. I knew going in from lead-follow sessions with GT3's and RS's in my GTS that their durability and tire management is superior. They can hammer for an entire 20 min session, basically without cool down laps involved, I can't. It's therefore arguably an experiential advantage, "you get more out of the track day," more time on track focused on driving vs. tire management. How the GT3 manages tires over the course of a session is never really talked about but is one of its standout benefits relative to most other platforms.

Seats -- I've never met a BMW seat that's suitable for advanced pace. Maybe the 4 pt harness system in the E9X is sufficient, but I never got around to it. F8X comp seats don't cut it. I installed a Profi & 6 pt in my GTS. Can't imagine running without now.

About 5 sessions in with the GT3 buckets and 3 pts I realized I wasn't bracing, hadn't even thought about seat support. I'd install a half cage and 6 pts for safety purposes only.

If you want to push the performance envelope in almost any M, other than GTS with 3 ways (camber plates are minimum required), you'll need upgrades over stock --

BBK + race pads
Suspension
Camber plates
Seat
Harness system
Track wheels & tires

GT3 requires none of the above. You'll have to run through quite a few sets of GT3 tires before equaling these M track upgrade costs. (And all the while you're still burning through tires on the M, even though they cost a bundle less.)

Needless to say, none of this is to rip M. The mod process, adjustments, improvements, that's all fun too. Just an attempt at objective comparison, hope it helps.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Not quite in that way.

While the CS is definitely faster than a civic around a track, the top speed it reaches on each straight is only marginally faster. I've got plenty of data log to compare my 2015 civic M4 to my 2019 M4cs that shows this, the CS is only a couple of mph faster at the end of long straights. It is in the corners and how it picks-up speed out of corners that it makes time. So one could even argue that the CS is less demanding on the brakes than a civic M3/4 because it needs to brake less going into turns .

And all that cooling in the straight is actually beneficial before that hard braking zone .

If it's quicker through the corners, how does a higher corner exit speed and 30hp only add up to 1-2 more MPH on a long the straight? If you look at the mapping for the f8x cars, all the extra power is at the top end. Given the CS is DCT it can stay right in that band easily. What am I missing?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

I'm one event in with a .2 GT3 manual, standard brakes, buckets. Way too early to provide detailed long-term cost comparison feedback, but here's what struck me re key components on a (105 heat index) day @ Sebring.

Dealer dialed in a streetable "track" alignment pre-purchase. Stock everything.

Brakes -- I double checked with the dealer post-purchase because after a few hundred street miles I was pretty sure they must be race pads. Mega dust, not a lot of bite when cold, nearly as noisy as my old RS29 pads after city driving. Dealer assured me they were stock.

After researching, believe the stock pads are Pagid, so that adds up…

Still approached the track day with some trepidation. Not needed -- zero fade, no deposits, absolute consistency all day. They are anchors.

Tires -- didn't observe much visual wear on the Cup 2's and no damage like when I chunked my GTS's pre-camber (thank God). But I'm sure the .2 RS owner on pg 1 of the thread is accurate in his 3-5 day forecast. Especially if you're not willing to work through the drop in traction.

But of note, Cup 2, and the Sport Maxx Race 2, which are the OE tire options, are not as track-focused and durable as some of our M options. In time there will probably be more available in OE GT3 sizing. They will of course be more expensive than 18's, but I can't see how RE-71R's, for example, wouldn't last equal or longer on the GT3 than they do on F8X.

I say that because I've never spent less time managing or thinking about tires on track. I knew going in from lead-follow sessions with GT3's and RS's in my GTS that their durability and tire management is superior. They can hammer for an entire 20 min session, basically without cool down laps involved, I can't. It's therefore arguably an experiential advantage, "you get more out of the track day," more time on track focused on driving vs. tire management. How the GT3 manages tires over the course of a session is never really talked about but is one of its standout benefits relative to most other platforms.

Seats -- I've never met a BMW seat that's suitable for advanced pace. Maybe the 4 pt harness system in the E9X is sufficient, but I never got around to it. F8X comp seats don't cut it. I installed a Profi & 6 pt in my GTS. Can't imagine running without now.

About 5 sessions in with the GT3 buckets and 3 pts I realized I wasn't bracing, hadn't even thought about seat support. I'd install a half cage and 6 pts for safety purposes only.

If you want to push the performance envelope in almost any M, other than GTS with 3 ways (camber plates are minimum required), you'll need upgrades over stock --

BBK + race pads
Suspension
Camber plates
Seat
Harness system
Track wheels & tires

GT3 requires none of the above. You'll have to run through quite a few sets of GT3 tires before equaling these M track upgrade costs. (And all the while you're still burning through tires on the M, even though they cost a bundle less.)

Needless to say, none of this is to rip M. The mod process, adjustments, improvements, that's all fun too. Just an attempt at objective comparison, hope it helps.

Great feedback, you get to drive both back to back, but I do have plenty of comments.

If the GT3 comes with track pads stock and they have the typical bad characteristics of track pads on the street, i.e. they dust like crazy, then can this really be considered an advantage?
I run the PFC11 pads year round on my E90 and F80 CS track cars. A track pad that is pretty quiet but dusts a lot. Does this mean I can say I use 'stock' (stock for my BBK) pads and this is an advantage over other cars?

Similarly, there are many reports of GT350Rs consuming their tires after 5k street miles because they come with what an M3 owner would consider a 'track alignment'. Other than not needing camber plates, does it make sense for the GT350R owner to consider his car is better because he can track with a 'stock' alignment when that in reality is a track alignment which -after adding camber plates- anyone with an M3 could also leave on their car year round?

For sure it's an advantage to not buy wheels for the GT3, you can just use stock ones. I'm not going to bother pricing out tires in an 18" Apex set vs a 991 set to see how many sets are required before you'd paid off the Apex wheels -likely not that many-, but it is a nice advantage for the GT3.

Seats... the optional bucket seats in the GT3, which cost more than the whole caboodle (seats+harnesses) in the M3, are quite nice, but they are still not serious track seats. Their containment capabilities are way better than the M3 seat, but also way worse than what a Sparco Ergo for example offers.
If you want to consider the GT3 does not need harnesses just because of the seat, then you should also remove harnesses from the M3 mod list as there is nothing magical about the GT3 bucket, it is simply much sportier than the M3 seat, so replacing the M3 seats with a Recaro Sportster would yield the same result

Tire management is likely better in the GT3 as it comes with much wider wheels and lower weight, although for whatever reason 'greasy tires' is the preferred excuse of a 991 GT3 RS Weistec package friend who has been racing for 20 years when he gives me the pass.
I'm always a little puzzled about the tire management people have in the M3, because I've always double-tracked the M3 so whatever tires it has on it (in past seasons RE71s, now R1s) will be on the track twice as long as regular cars and the fastest laps still come towards the end of the session.
In any M3 you can happily run a BFG R1 tire, which does not get greasy in the least no matter what you do to it.


Let's assume* you need all the mods you've listed to push the M3 envelope. With those mods an F8X would have:
-Better brakes than a GT3. This is why the GT3 RS guys upgrade to the same BBK any M3 runs
-Better suspension than a GT3. Again, if a GT3 RS guy upgrades suspension they will wind up in the usual suspects: JRZ, MCS, etc.
-Better seats than the GT3. You can run removable halo seats like I do, the Sparco Ergo. Safer than the GT3 seats.
-Better wheels, as you would run 10.5 square 18" wheels instead of foolish 20 and 21s.

After this, you compare the price of a used 991 GT3 and it's multiple times that of a used M3.


*I'm not so sure all this is needed. People on this kind of board seem to think a 991 GT3/RS is some kind of infinitely fast vehicle, but it is certainly not. My CS on the first weekend with RE71 tires on its stock wheels and stock suspension + camber plates got into the 2:06s at WGI, faster than 99.9% the 991 GT3s I've run into in my life of tracking and instructing with PCA

[adc]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Tires -- didn't observe much visual wear on the Cup 2's and no damage like when I chunked my GTS's pre-camber (thank God). But I'm sure the .2 RS owner on pg 1 of the thread is accurate in his 3-5 day forecast. Especially if you're not willing to work through the drop in traction.

But of note, Cup 2, and the Sport Maxx Race 2, which are the OE tire options, are not as track-focused and durable as some of our M options. In time there will probably be more available in OE GT3 sizing. They will of course be more expensive than 18's, but I can't see how RE-71R's, for example, wouldn't last equal or longer on the GT3 than they do on F8X.

I say that because I've never spent less time managing or thinking about tires on track. I knew going in from lead-follow sessions with GT3's and RS's in my GTS that their durability and tire management is superior. They can hammer for an entire 20 min session, basically without cool down laps involved, I can't. It's therefore arguably an experiential advantage, "you get more out of the track day," more time on track focused on driving vs. tire management. How the GT3 manages tires over the course of a session is never really talked about but is one of its standout benefits relative to most other platforms.

I think you've got something here. The suspension geometry, lower CG, lower weight, reduced suspension travel and well set up roll centers and such on a GT3/RS should be important advantages to maximizing optimal tire grip window compared to an M3.

But you also have to temper this with the relative speed of the cars. A 911 GT3 running 2:09 at VIR can probably do this all day long, whereas me with my NT01's and stock suspension can only manage 5-6 laps at that pace, or less than half a session. But if you were to run 2:04's in the GT3, you might face the same problem as well (momentum is a function of mass & velocity).

Again if the drivers aren't comparable in skill and the % amount they can extract from a given car, then it's very hard to have a meaningful conclusion.

Seats -- I've never met a BMW seat that's suitable for advanced pace. Maybe the 4 pt harness system in the E9X is sufficient, but I never got around to it. F8X comp seats don't cut it. I installed a Profi & 6 pt in my GTS. Can't imagine running without now.

About 5 sessions in with the GT3 buckets and 3 pts I realized I wasn't bracing, hadn't even thought about seat support. I'd install a half cage and 6 pts for safety purposes only.

I have the Schroth Quick Fit 4 point in my car. It helps, but I'm still bracing a little bit. If it bothered me more, I'd spring for a Recaro Sportster.

If you want to push the performance envelope in almost any M, other than GTS with 3 ways (camber plates are minimum required), you'll need upgrades over stock --

BBK + race pads Perhaps
Suspension Maybe, I'll chime in after tracking my new Ohlins
Camber plates Absolutely
Seat Not really
Harness system Schroth Quick Fit
Track wheels & tires Absolutely

I've updated the above according to my experience. I'll say that running separate track wheels/tires has another advantage, and I think you haven't run into this scenario yet with your GT3. When it rains, I use my stock wheels/Michelins as rain tires, and I am usually the fastest car in my group. GT3's and other cars running Cups/similar either park them, or struggle and eventually give up.

Another unmentioned aspect is track insurance. I can get my M3 covered for one weekend for around $350, it would cost around $800-1000 to insure a GT3.

GT3 requires none of the above. You'll have to run through quite a few sets of GT3 tires before equaling these M track upgrade costs. (And all the while you're still burning through tires on the M, even though they cost a bundle less.)

Even if you add all those options up and end up with $15k in performance mods (or thereabouts), the initial out of pocket cost is still extremely favorable for the M. Given you can have a used one with mods easily under $60k, or new under $85k (used GT3 around $130-140k, new $180k).

The math becomes a little more blurry after using the car for a few years so you can perhaps make the argument that it's worth doing the GT3 anyway just for the experience of it. Of course that assumes you can financially stomach the much steeper initial cash outlay, higher maintenance cost, higher tracking cost and can assume the risk of incidentals (accidents/repaints significantly lower the value of a GT3/RS).

Needless to say, none of this is to rip M. The mod process, adjustments, improvements, that's all fun too. Just an attempt at objective comparison, hope it helps.

Didn't consider your post a rip - opinions and experiences like yours is what I requested in my original post.

Beautiful car BTW.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Montaver

If it's quicker through the corners, how does a higher corner exit speed and 30hp only add up to 1-2 more MPH on a long the straight? If you look at the mapping for the f8x cars, all the extra power is at the top end. Given the CS is DCT it can stay right in that band easily. What am I missing?

Physics and vehicle dynamic principles .

The popular notion that any speed gained at corner exit is maintained throughout the entire straight is fundamentally wrong. Here's why:

To illustrate a few of the key factors at play, let's assume a civic and CS M4 exiting the same corner into a straight. The civic exits at 100mph while the CS exits at 105mph (a 5mph greater exit speed is quite significant). First, the power required to accelerate an object is governed by the formula P=mva, where "m" is the mass of the object, "v" its speed and "a" the acceleration. So at corner exit, the CS needs 5% more power than the civic just to maintain the same acceleration rate just because of its higher exit speed. Then there's drag, aero drag increases with the cube of speed, so the CS has 16% more power lost to drag than the civic. Further, the aero on the CS that helps it corner faster also increases drag. And last, how much speed is gained from acceleration is a function of time. Since the CS enters the straight at a higher speed, it needs less time to travel the distance of the straight up to the braking point, having less time at it's disposal to accelerate and gain speed.

All that being said, higher corner exit speed still remains the most fundamental element for quick lap times, but the majority of the gain is achieved in the earlier portions of the straight. That's how Miatas can beat M3/4 despite their lower top speed .

[FormulaMMM]

All good, happy to have a detailed discussion/comparison, not the usual GT3's fart rainbows nonsense.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

If the GT3 comes with track pads stock and they have the typical bad characteristics of track pads on the street, i.e. they dust like crazy, then can this really be considered an advantage?

Yeah, arguably not. And some GT owners spec or find a car with the ceramics for this reason alone. I'm used to the race pad characteristics, don't care, and have the matte black wheels, so they just end up more matte and slightly brown'ish. Whatever. I'll exchange that for track readiness just like you do with the year-round PFC11. And a proper track pad is pretty necessary with the GT3 anyways since I can't even remove the damn wheels.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Similarly, there are many reports of GT350Rs consuming their tires after 5k street miles because they come with what an M3 owner would consider a 'track alignment'. Other than not needing camber plates, does it make sense for the GT350R owner to consider his car is better because he can track with a 'stock' alignment when that in reality is a track alignment which -after adding camber plates- anyone with an M3 could also leave on their car year round?

Valid question, and I was of course advised by the service department that with the track spec alignment I'd eat tires with many street miles. Told them track will definitely kill faster than street miles, so no worries.

One thing is for sure -- M should follow Porsche, GM, Ford, etc.'s lead and give enthusiasts the OPTION to dial in a track alignment from stock. And it's something that the dealership should be sanctioned to do (under warranty).

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Seats... the optional bucket seats in the GT3, which cost more than the whole caboodle (seats+harnesses) in the M3, are quite nice, but they are still not serious track seats. Their containment capabilities are way better than the M3 seat, but also way worse than what a Sparco Ergo for example offers.

True. Priced into the cost of my used one, though.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

If you want to consider the GT3 does not need harnesses just because of the seat, then you should also remove harnesses from the M3 mod list as there is nothing magical about the GT3 bucket, it is simply much sportier than the M3 seat, so replacing the M3 seats with a Recaro Sportster would yield the same result

I think the GT3 bucket with 3 pt is likely quite substantially more supportive than a Sportster + 3 pt.

And remember the 3 pt receptacle safety issues with any aftermarket bucket. Other than the OE Euro GTS seats, I'm not aware of any that integrate the receptacle properly like the GT3. I would not run a 3 pt with my Profi on track, for example. It's a legit compromise on safety.

I run with a .2 RS owner at the home track. He has a harness bar and 6 pt. Buckets and 3 pt are supportive enough that he typically doesn't bother with the hans and 6 pt. So just a bit of added weight... kind of funny.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Tire management is likely better in the GT3 as it comes with much wider wheels and lower weight, although for whatever reason 'greasy tires' is the preferred excuse of a 991 GT3 RS Weistec package friend who has been racing for 20 years when he gives me the pass.

haha, he's lyin.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I'm always a little puzzled about the tire management people have in the M3, because I've always double-tracked the M3 so whatever tires it has on it (in past seasons RE71s, now R1s) will be on the track twice as long as regular cars and the fastest laps still come towards the end of the session.
In any M3 you can happily run a BFG R1 tire, which does not get greasy in the least no matter what you do to it.

Track characteristics are the variable here. I used to be able to run full sessions in my E90 at Sebring no tire issues. Home track, tight, twisty, no way. But the GT3's and RS's at my home track running advanced pace can do it.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Let's assume* you need all the mods you've listed to push the M3 envelope. With those mods an F8X would have:
-Better brakes than a GT3. This is why the GT3 RS guys upgrade to the same BBK any M3 runs
-Better suspension than a GT3. Again, if a GT3 RS guy upgrades suspension they will wind up in the usual suspects: JRZ, MCS, etc.
-Better seats than the GT3. You can run removable halo seats like I do, the Sparco Ergo. Safer than the GT3 seats.
-Better wheels, as you would run 10.5 square 18" wheels instead of foolish 20 and 21s.

After this, you compare the price of a used 991 GT3 and it's multiple times that of a used M3.

Yep.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

*I'm not so sure all this is needed. People on this kind of board seem to think a 991 GT3/RS is some kind of infinitely fast vehicle, but it is certainly not. My CS on the first weekend with RE71 tires on its stock wheels and stock suspension + camber plates got into the 2:06s at WGI, faster than 99.9% the 991 GT3s I've run into in my life of tracking and instructing with PCA

Getting a lap time out of an M car is one of the best, most rewarding automotive experiences an enthusiast can have. I'll never tire of it.

I mentioned in another thread my sense is that the GT3 brings a lot of Porsche Motorsport into the driving equation. You sense that on track. In the GTS i'm taking more of the credit.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

All good, happy to have a detailed discussion/comparison, not the usual GT3's fart rainbows nonsense.

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Yeah, arguably not. And some GT owners spec or find a car with the ceramics for this reason alone. I'm used to the race pad characteristics, don't care, and have the matte black wheels, so they just end up more matte and slightly brown'ish. Whatever. I'll exchange that for track readiness just like you do with the year-round PFC11. And a proper track pad is pretty necessary with the GT3 anyways since I can't even remove the damn wheels.

I also have matte black wheels I find just running a track pad year round to be wonderful. One less thing to worry about on the track! But it does have disadvantages, mostly the incredible amount of dust they throw on the rest of the car!

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Valid question, and I was of course advised by the service department that with the track spec alignment I'd eat tires with many street miles. Told them track will definitely kill faster than street miles, so no worries.

One thing is for sure -- M should follow Porsche, GM, Ford, etc.'s lead and give enthusiasts the OPTION to dial in a track alignment from stock. And it's something that the dealership should be sanctioned to do (under warranty).

100% agreed. There's no valid reason for the GTS to not come with camber plates. Even regular M3s should come with simple camber plates.
There aren't warranty issues with BMWs from adding camber plates as far as I know, but it does force you do install a part that is not BMW and it's not that cheap to install.

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

True. Priced into the cost of my used one, though.

I think the GT3 bucket with 3 pt is likely quite substantially more supportive than a Sportster + 3 pt.

And remember the 3 pt receptacle safety issues with any aftermarket bucket. Other than the OE Euro GTS seats, I'm not aware of any that integrate the receptacle properly like the GT3. I would not run a 3 pt with my Profi on track, for example. It's a legit compromise on safety.

I run with a .2 RS owner at the home track. He has a harness bar and 6 pt. Buckets and 3 pt are supportive enough that he typically doesn't bother with the hans and 6 pt. So just a bit of added weight... kind of funny.

They are very nice seats, all the 991 GT3s and GT4s I've driven or instructed so far have them.
The seatbelt receptacle is a valid concern. I vaguely recall the Cobra Nogaros have the proper seatbelt slots.
I still prefer the Ergos as they have removable halos and the slow mo video of an incident I had at AER Road Atlanta show halos are a very good thing for offset accidents, although running Ergos means less safety on the street.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by adc

I think you've got something here. The suspension geometry, lower CG, lower weight, reduced suspension travel and well set up roll centers and such on a GT3/RS should be important advantages to maximizing optimal tire grip window compared to an M3.

But you also have to temper this with the relative speed of the cars. A 911 GT3 running 2:09 at VIR can probably do this all day long, whereas me with my NT01's and stock suspension can only manage 5-6 laps at that pace, or less than half a session. But if you were to run 2:04's in the GT3, you might face the same problem as well (momentum is a function of mass & velocity).

Again if the drivers aren't comparable in skill and the % amount they can extract from a given car, then it's very hard to have a meaningful conclusion.

Yeah, I think it really is as simple as what you suggest in the first paragraph. Let's say I'm driving GT3 and GTS at 98% of potential. Based upon my run-ins with GT3's and experience (albeit limited) tracking the car, dollars to donuts I'm exceeding psi and or thermal limit in the GTS first.

Originally Posted by adc

I've updated the above according to my experience. I'll say that running separate track wheels/tires has another advantage, and I think you haven't run into this scenario yet with your GT3. When it rains, I use my stock wheels/Michelins as rain tires, and I am usually the fastest car in my group. GT3's and other cars running Cups/similar either park them, or struggle and eventually give up.

Truth. And every time it happened in my E90 I was thankful to have the OE wheels and tires on hand.

Originally Posted by adc

Another unmentioned aspect is track insurance. I can get my M3 covered for one weekend for around $350, it would cost around $800-1000 to insure a GT3.

Got a quote pre-Sebring. I think it was $800 actually. Nope...

Originally Posted by adc

Even if you add all those options up and end up with $15k in performance mods (or thereabouts), the initial out of pocket cost is still extremely favorable for the M. Given you can have a used one with mods easily under $60k, or new under $85k (used GT3 around $130-140k, new $180k).

The math becomes a little more blurry after using the car for a few years so you can perhaps make the argument that it's worth doing the GT3 anyway just for the experience of it. Of course that assumes you can financially stomach the much steeper initial cash outlay, higher maintenance cost, higher tracking cost and can assume the risk of incidentals (accidents/repaints significantly lower the value of a GT3/RS).

No debate. You have to really want the GT3. When they did the .2 with the manual, I knew it was going to be a problem.

Originally Posted by adc

Didn't consider your post a rip - opinions and experiences like yours is what I requested in my original post.

Beautiful car BTW.

Thanks. You know, just didn't want to be grouped in with the GT3 crowd around here.