Stock Brakes from Blue to Green?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

Right for the cost! Not for performance. Make no mistake ... the stock brakes are not the best, but I'm not here to argue. Just to point out they are not optimal for the track. They generate way too much heat due to how hard they have to work and the size (surface area) of the pads is too small.

I am not sure I follow you. You said that BMW would expect track junkies to opt for the CCB. Yet, that is not what is happening because CCB have a history of being cost prohibitive for track use. So the iron brakes seem to be the preferred option for the track junkies. If they perform sufficiently well, why bother with more cost?

[Gearhead999s]

My left front caliper has started to turn green but the other 3 calipers are still blue. The only thing that I can think of is that on the Calabogie East Course it is mostly right hand corners where you trail brake a lot and the left just gets that much hotter than the RF with the ABS interacting.Brake dust is ingrained now in the Clearcoat of my Left Front wheel.Still had a great pedal so you have to love the Pagid RSL pads!

[AMPowerJ]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am not sure I follow you. You said that BMW would expect track junkies to opt for the CCB. Yet, that is not what is happening because CCB have a history of being cost prohibitive for track use. So the iron brakes seem to be the preferred option for the track junkies. If they perform sufficiently well, why bother with more cost?

The point is the CCB is the best braking system. I don't think the stock brakes perform as well as the CCBs lap after lap. I think that would be easily proven given the way ceramic dissipates heat, the 6-pot vs 4-pot calipers and the larger surface area of the pads.

They (BMW) probably in reality don't think much about us track guys. But with cost not being a factor, we would all have CCB brakes for our track cars. I've never read or heard a negative thing about them except for the cost and maybe braking in the rain.

If they really tested (and cared) the stock brakes on the track and saw them turn green, I *think* they would have changed the color of the calipers at the very least. BMW knows 95% of the owners never take their cars to the track and it's probably only 1% that really drive them hard on the track.

So just because the majority of track guys have the stock brakes, doesn't mean they are the best.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

So just because the majority of track guys have the stock brakes, doesn't mean they are the best.

That is not where the argumentation lies.

It started when you said: "BMW doesn't expect hardcore track guys to use these brakes."

I think BMW was well aware that most "track" folks would opt for the irons. Their market research cannot be that off. Heck, they even offer BMW OE "track" pads for the irons.

Further, don't forget that the CCB operate at much higher temperature than iron rotors so the CCB are just as susceptible (if not more so) to heat induced collateral damage.

I am not disputing the fact that, as an entire package and not factoring cost, the CCB are superior.

[AMPowerJ]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

That is not where the argumentation lies.

It started when you said: "BMW doesn't expect hardcore track guys to use these brakes."

I think BMW was well aware that most "track" folks would opt for the irons. Their market research cannot be that off. Heck, they even offer BMW OE "track" pads for the irons.

Further, don't forget that the CCB operate at much higher temperature than iron rotors so the CCB are just as susceptible (if not more so) to heat induced collateral damage.

I am not disputing the fact that, as an entire package and not factoring cost, the CCB are superior.

Why would BMW recommend that a customer use inferior brakes in the one place where they are most important? They wouldn't. Therefore, why do you think BMW would expect the people that want the best track setup for a M3/M4 to purchase the car with iron rotors and 4-pot calipers? The BMW Performance Center cars all have CCB. Maybe that's marketing but I don't think that is the only reason.

[chili cheese]

In for some green caliper pics.

[chili cheese]

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

Well for one they turn Green.

Whether we believe CCBs are good for the track or not due to costs, it's obvious that many manufactures of cars that will end up on the track are putting their R&D into CCBs as their high end brake offerings. BMW is no different. This is their flagship braking system and the one I'm sure they would expect you to option if you are a track junkie. Although more and more BMWs are not for track junkies out of the box.

I've got a GT350 ordered and I'm excited that Ford dropped their CCB plans to keep cost down but they equipped the car with proper 6-pot Brembo front brakes. And they are black on the standard car so no color changes from the heat.

No GT350R?

[CanAutM3]

Sorry OP

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

Why would BMW recommend that a customer use inferior brakes in the one place where they are most important? They wouldn't.

We are not talking about a "recommendation", we are talking about what BMW think the track junkie market will go for.

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

Therefore, why do you think BMW would expect the people that want the best track setup for a M3/M4 to purchase the car with iron rotors and 4-pot calipers?

Because it is the cost sensible approach. Most track junkies seem to have opted for the irons, which proves the point.

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

The BMW Performance Center cars all have CCB. Maybe that's marketing but I don't think that is the only reason.

Yup, marketing .

Further, most Performance Center experiences are far less demanding on the brakes than most track days.

[AMPowerJ]

You keep mixing cost in with what is the best for the track. These are two mutually exclusive things.

I stand by my opinion that if you asked a BMW M engineer which brake package to get for the track they would say the CCB. If you asked him which system they put more engineering into for the track, again he would say the CCB.

[chili cheese]

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

You keep mixing cost in with what is the best for the track. These are two mutually exclusive things.

I stand by my opinion that if you asked a BMW M engineer which brake package to get for the track they would say the CCB. If you asked him which system they put more engineering into for the track, again he would say the CCB.

If someone could get the CCBs to turn green would that change your mind?

[AMPowerJ]

Originally Posted by chili cheese

If someone could get the CCBs to turn green would that change your mind?

Haha. No

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

You keep mixing cost in with what is the best for the track. These are two mutually exclusive things.

Because the two ("cost" and "best") are NOT mutually exclusive. If you imply best in terms of absolute performance at the track, in that case, I would flush the M4 and get that sweet GT3RS (to name just one option).

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

I stand by my opinion that if you asked a BMW M engineer which brake package to get for the track they would say the CCB.

If you ask him which performs better and/or has the most performance reserve, I agree, he would likely say the CCB.

If it were for his own car at his own expense, I am pretty sure his answer would be different.

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

If you asked him which system they put more engineering into for the track, again he would say the CCB.

This I doubt. I believe very similar engineering went into both systems.

[MasterP]

Originally Posted by chili cheese

In for some green caliper pics.

Mine are Green. With some brown at the edges.

No warranty, obviously. But I did ask LOL.

I'm with CanAutM3 I pretty much stopped caring after the third track event.

CCB's will also change the caliper color. CCB's get hotter since they can take more heat.

[peter_s]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am not sure I follow you. You said that BMW would expect track junkies to opt for the CCB. Yet, that is not what is happening because CCB have a history of being cost prohibitive for track use. So the iron brakes seem to be the preferred option for the track junkies. If they perform sufficiently well, why bother with more cost?

The interesting thing is that even BMWs own cars that run the BMW Experience etc run the steel brakes with better pads. I personally haven't been impressed with any CCB yet. Yes they stop hard and without fade, but they still lack in terms of modulation feel and cost. Even the latest ones are a little too on and off for my taste. I'm very happy with the steel brakes on the M4

[MasterP]

The 650S has great brake feel from the CCB's. As do the 458's (likely the 488 too) and P cars also have great CCB's.

[chili cheese]

Originally Posted by TrakBch

Mine are Green. With some brown at the edges.

No warranty, obviously. But I did ask LOL.

I'm with CanAutM3 I pretty much stopped caring after the third track event.

CCB's will also change the caliper color. CCB's get hotter since they can take more heat.

Thanks. Yeah, if I stick with the stock set-up I'll stop caring too. Just wanted to see how common it was.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

BMW doesn't expect hardcore track guys to use these brakes.

I suspect BMW doesn't expect hardcore track guys to give a rats ass about caliper color !!

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

[...]They (BMW) probably in reality don't think much about us track guys. But with cost not being a factor, we would all have CCB brakes for our track cars.

Well, if cost wasn't a factor, my track car would be an F1 machine.
Or at least an Indy Car.

Alas, cost does factor into my decision making process, thus ruling CCF brakes out (well that, and that 50% of them squeal hideously at street temps and have problems with friction coefficient at below freezing temps).

a

[chili cheese]

Originally Posted by afadeev

I suspect BMW doesn't expect hardcore track guys to give a rats ass about caliper color !!

Always entertaining. What is a "hardcore" track guy? 20 days a year?

[MasterP]

Depends on who you ask. I've done almost 30 this year and one group I run with some of their guys do 70 a year. I don't know how they can do it, I was all ready to be proud of myself for committing more than half my weekends to motorsports but clearly I'm just a dabbler.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by chili cheese

Always entertaining. What is a "hardcore" track guy? 20 days a year?

I am at only 15 days this season. For different reasons, I did quite less than what I usually do (16~20). I did not get my fix this season and I am starting to get jitters. I wake up in the middle of the night in sweat, thinking I have a track day coming soon only to realize it won't be before next spring . I am on the group buy wait list for those 18x11 Apex wheels, I have ordered the GC camber plates for next season and play GT6 on my ol' PS3 all to try to appease my nerves . Man, it's tough being an addict .

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by AMPowerJ

You keep mixing cost in with what is the best for the track. These are two mutually exclusive things.

I stand by my opinion that if you asked a BMW M engineer which brake package to get for the track they would say the CCB. If you asked him which system they put more engineering into for the track, again he would say the CCB.

No point in arguing with people who can only justify iron brakes being better cuz they're more cost effective lol

Wanna be cost effective buy a prius and dont track your car... I dont get the logic behind cheap people... ALWAYS need to give a reason for why their cheaper "object" is superior because it is cheaper lol

[MaynardZed]

If money was no object we'd all do more track days no matter what brakes we are using. Just saying.