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      06-04-2020, 07:46 PM   #23
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Don't mean to hijack this thread but real curious to hear your thoughts on SS1LE vs M4CS. From a track perspective... fun factor, outright speed, confidence, etc... Are they as similar character wise as the numbers would lead you to believe?
There’s a long thread about this in the track sub forum. And PM ohiorideraaron who switched to that platform
The SS 1LE is extremely capable and a real beast. However, there was no way in hell that I could live with it on a day to day basis. The cabin was just so suffocating with horrible viewpoints in every direction, I can't see how anyone can tolerate it.
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      06-04-2020, 08:59 PM   #24
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With the impending G82 disaster, I'm watching M4 CS prices closely. Maybe I'll finally be forced to go to the dark side and lose my beloved 6MT but options are just dwindling. I love the F82 so much, hopefully CS prices will crater enough in a couple years to make the switch from a Civic M4 seem worthwhile.
They're pretty much "cratering" as we speak, no better time than the present. I'm planning on picking an F82 off within a couple weeks, that G is horrific looking.
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      06-05-2020, 12:57 PM   #25
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The SS 1LE is extremely capable and a real beast. However, there was no way in hell that I could live with it on a day to day basis. The cabin was just so suffocating with horrible viewpoints in every direction, I can't see how anyone can tolerate it.
Is it that bad? I didn’t mind it the cabin and I liked the v8 sounds a lot.

I guess I have had a lot of time commuting in 2 seater and 2+2 so I’ve gotten used to compromising a bit on sight lines and interior space.
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      06-06-2020, 02:36 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
With the impending G82 disaster, I’m watching M4 CS prices closely. Maybe I’ll finally be forced to go to the dark side and lose my beloved 6MT but options are just dwindling. I love the F82 so much, hopefully CS prices will crater enough in a couple years to make the switch from a Civic M4 seem worthwhile.
Pricing has already dipped quite a bit. I picked up a CS a few weeks ago for 20.4% off sticker before incentives. That said, I also might be looking to get rid of it soon because I'm not digging DCT all that much. Make of that what you will.
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      06-06-2020, 03:10 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
With the impending G82 disaster, I’m watching M4 CS prices closely. Maybe I’ll finally be forced to go to the dark side and lose my beloved 6MT but options are just dwindling. I love the F82 so much, hopefully CS prices will crater enough in a couple years to make the switch from a Civic M4 seem worthwhile.
Pricing has already dipped quite a bit. I picked up a CS a few weeks ago for 20.4% off sticker before incentives. That said, I also might be looking to get rid of it soon because I'm not digging DCT all that much. Make of that what you will.
But how's the day to day experience, cabin noise too invasive to carry on a conversation? Everything else for me is a go but I hardly drive alone unless work related. I'm still on the bubble here....
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      06-06-2020, 03:25 PM   #28
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But how's the day to day experience, cabin noise too invasive to carry on a conversation? Everything else for me is a go but I hardly drive alone unless work related. I'm still on the bubble here....
Everything else is amazing. Literally 0 complaints. Cabin noise arguably sounds better because due to less sound dampening you hear more of the exhaust, but not to a degree that it's invasive or that would interfere with a conversation. For me personally the no door pockets help a lot for less clutter since I used to keep a lot of junk paper in there. It's honestly pretty great. If I had to try and force a complaint I would say the audio system is noticeably worse than the HK in my old M4. Not bad enough that it's not tolerable, but it's not as punchy and certainly does not get as loud. I used to listen to podcasts and music at 40-50% volume. With this, especially on podcasts, I'm going to 70-80%.
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      06-06-2020, 03:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by DML View Post
But how's the day to day experience, cabin noise too invasive to carry on a conversation? Everything else for me is a go but I hardly drive alone unless work related. I'm still on the bubble here....
Everything else is amazing. Literally 0 complaints. Cabin noise arguably sounds better because due to less sound dampening you hear more of the exhaust, but not to a degree that it's invasive or that would interfere with a conversation. For me personally the no door pockets help a lot for less clutter since I used to keep a lot of junk paper in there. It's honestly pretty great. If I had to try and force a complaint I would say the audio system is noticeably worse than the HK in my old M4. Not bad enough that it's not tolerable, but it's not as punchy and certainly does not get as loud. I used to listen to podcasts and music at 40-50% volume. With this, especially on podcasts, I'm going to 70-80%.
Hey thanks, Exactly what I was looking for from a real life driver. I've got a CS plus a Heritage on the table so hopefully I'll make a decision before the decade ends. BTW I'm with you on the door pockets, no issue here, what color did you go? That's another problem.
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      06-06-2020, 05:01 PM   #30
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      06-06-2020, 10:49 PM   #31
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Hey thanks, Exactly what I was looking for from a real life driver. I've got a CS plus a Heritage on the table so hopefully I'll make a decision before the decade ends. BTW I'm with you on the door pockets, no issue here, what color did you go? That's another problem.
San Merino Blue! It's gorgeous. If I decide to keep the car I definitely need to do paint correction, though. It had been sitting for about 9 months and I think they had washed it several times in that period because the swirls are out of this world.

Not sure if price is the deciding factor between the two for you, but I would hands down pick the CS between it and a Heritage with ZCP. I had a '18 ZCP before this, and though they're not dynamically night and day, the changes they've made to the suspension are great. Might also just be the size and weight of the rims, not sure exactly. But the end result is a much smoother ride on surface streets in Comfort. Maybe smoother isn't the best way to describe it. More so the way it dampens over ridges in the road or small bumps. In my ZCP they would reverberate through the car and upset it as the speeds got higher. My CS just seems to float over them nicely and remain balanced. The additional midrange torque is noticeable but it's not enough to care about.

I just wish it didn't have DCT. If you know how to drive stick, really know, then about 80% of the time you can do a better, quicker (especially on downshifts), and smoother job. Credit where credit is due though, at full tilt the upshifts are lightning quick and there's no way I could replicate them with a stick. But alas, PDK this is not.
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      06-07-2020, 01:12 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by DML View Post
Hey thanks, Exactly what I was looking for from a real life driver. I've got a CS plus a Heritage on the table so hopefully I'll make a decision before the decade ends. BTW I'm with you on the door pockets, no issue here, what color did you go? That's another problem.
San Merino Blue! It's gorgeous. If I decide to keep the car I definitely need to do paint correction, though. It had been sitting for about 9 months and I think they had washed it several times in that period because the swirls are out of this world.

Not sure if price is the deciding factor between the two for you, but I would hands down pick the CS between it and a Heritage with ZCP. I had a '18 ZCP before this, and though they're not dynamically night and day, the changes they've made to the suspension are great. Might also just be the size and weight of the rims, not sure exactly. But the end result is a much smoother ride on surface streets in Comfort. Maybe smoother isn't the best way to describe it. More so the way it dampens over ridges in the road or small bumps. In my ZCP they would reverberate through the car and upset it as the speeds got higher. My CS just seems to float over them nicely and remain balanced. The additional midrange torque is noticeable but it's not enough to care about.

I just wish it didn't have DCT. If you know how to drive stick, really know, then about 80% of the time you can do a better, quicker (especially on downshifts), and smoother job. Credit where credit is due though, at full tilt the upshifts are lightning quick and there's no way I could replicate them with a stick. But alas, PDK this is not.
I agree with you on the damping, the CS suspension tune is just spot on. I had a friend give me a ride in a GT3 RS and the damping feel is incredibly similar to the CS. Mind you, I have the MP HAS kit, but it just feels slightly stiffer than stock.

Now with the shifting, the CS DCT tune is much more aggressive (feels, sounds amazing) compared to the base M4 I had before. You're fooling yourself if you think you can down shift quicker in a manual. (First 100,000km of my driving life was done on manual)

The power delivery is also much more linear in the CS over the ZCP tune. I found the ZCP tune to have this surge at the lower end and then taper off. As a result, it's much more easier to modulate throttle in the CS.

The 666m wheels in the ZCP also feel like absolute anchors compared to the 763m. There's a noticeable difference in feel with unsprung weight when it comes to braking and accel.
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      06-07-2020, 01:21 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by djMpower View Post
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Originally Posted by DML View Post
But how's the day to day experience, cabin noise too invasive to carry on a conversation? Everything else for me is a go but I hardly drive alone unless work related. I'm still on the bubble here....
Everything else is amazing. Literally 0 complaints. Cabin noise arguably sounds better because due to less sound dampening you hear more of the exhaust, but not to a degree that it's invasive or that would interfere with a conversation. For me personally the no door pockets help a lot for less clutter since I used to keep a lot of junk paper in there. It's honestly pretty great. If I had to try and force a complaint I would say the audio system is noticeably worse than the HK in my old M4. Not bad enough that it's not tolerable, but it's not as punchy and certainly does not get as loud. I used to listen to podcasts and music at 40-50% volume. With this, especially on podcasts, I'm going to 70-80%.
Agreed on all points here.
Though, the audio is really not that bad.

As for lesser sound deadening in the CS:

I usually do my driving with both windows down, when you do this, you don't realize a difference.

But during fall and winter, I really grew to enjoy driving with the windows closed as you realize how much more mechanical noise (rear diff, engine, gravel hitting underside of car) comes thru to inside of the cabin.

It just feels authentic, unfiltered and slightly raw. Mix that with the luxurious feel of the Alcantara/leather upholstery with a squeak/rattle free solid build quality, and it makes you feel like you're in a really high quality car.
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      06-07-2020, 03:04 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by djMpower View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DML View Post
But how's the day to day experience, cabin noise too invasive to carry on a conversation? Everything else for me is a go but I hardly drive alone unless work related. I'm still on the bubble here....
Everything else is amazing. Literally 0 complaints. Cabin noise arguably sounds better because due to less sound dampening you hear more of the exhaust, but not to a degree that it's invasive or that would interfere with a conversation. For me personally the no door pockets help a lot for less clutter since I used to keep a lot of junk paper in there. It's honestly pretty great. If I had to try and force a complaint I would say the audio system is noticeably worse than the HK in my old M4. Not bad enough that it's not tolerable, but it's not as punchy and certainly does not get as loud. I used to listen to podcasts and music at 40-50% volume. With this, especially on podcasts, I'm going to 70-80%.
Agreed on all points here.
Though, the audio is really not that bad.

As for lesser sound deadening in the CS:

I usually do my driving with both windows down, when you do this, you don't realize a difference.

But during fall and winter, I really grew to enjoy driving with the windows closed as you realize how much more mechanical noise (rear diff, engine, gravel hitting underside of car) comes thru to inside of the cabin.

It just feels authentic, unfiltered and slightly raw. Mix that with the luxurious feel of the Alcantara/leather upholstery with a squeak/rattle free solid build quality, and it makes you feel like you're in a really high quality car.
With that, once gain leaning.
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      06-07-2020, 03:10 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by DML View Post
Hey thanks, Exactly what I was looking for from a real life driver. I've got a CS plus a Heritage on the table so hopefully I'll make a decision before the decade ends. BTW I'm with you on the door pockets, no issue here, what color did you go? That's another problem.
San Merino Blue! It's gorgeous. If I decide to keep the car I definitely need to do paint correction, though. It had been sitting for about 9 months and I think they had washed it several times in that period because the swirls are out of this world.

Not sure if price is the deciding factor between the two for you, but I would hands down pick the CS between it and a Heritage with ZCP. I had a '18 ZCP before this, and though they're not dynamically night and day, the changes they've made to the suspension are great. Might also just be the size and weight of the rims, not sure exactly. But the end result is a much smoother ride on surface streets in Comfort. Maybe smoother isn't the best way to describe it. More so the way it dampens over ridges in the road or small bumps. In my ZCP they would reverberate through the car and upset it as the speeds got higher. My CS just seems to float over them nicely and remain balanced. The additional midrange torque is noticeable but it's not enough to care about.

I just wish it didn't have DCT. If you know how to drive stick, really know, then about 80% of the time you can do a better, quicker (especially on downshifts), and smoother job. Credit where credit is due though, at full tilt the upshifts are lightning quick and there's no way I could replicate them with a stick. But alas, PDK this is not.
Dealers are just discounting the heck off of the "CS" I have yet to discuss price on the Heritage Edition. Your comments along with others tell me the smart money is with the "CS". There happens to be a SMB up here in the Boston area while a handful of AW"s are within striking distance. Really want to close this out but for the first time it's been quite difficult. Thanks for the help...
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      06-07-2020, 09:02 AM   #36
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I had an '18 2SS Camaro. Incredibly impressive car, the magnetic ride is superior to the adaptive dampers in the M4.
why the change? Cuz it was a Camaro.....
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      06-07-2020, 08:48 PM   #37
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Now with the shifting, the CS DCT tune is much more aggressive (feels, sounds amazing) compared to the base M4 I had before. You're fooling yourself if you think you can down shift quicker in a manual. (First 100,000km of my driving life was done on manual)
Nope. I'm not comparing hypothetical shifts, I'm comparing real life shifts that I did in my '18 6MT ZCP vs. my '20 DCT CS. I'll grant you that at times DCT can downshift rather quickly, but a lot of the times it seems to get confused and there can be upwards of a 1s delay between pressing the paddle and having the transmission engage. If you know how to heel-toe properly you can complete a full shift in less than half a second. Under ideal circumstances DCT beats that, but in real world driving most of the time it doesn't.

Plus, the shift settings don't make too much sense. To get ideal downshifts you want it set to level 3. Except, in level 3, upshifts are so aggressive that they can throw the car out of balance or even kick traction control in. Then if you lower the shift setting to 1 or 2, upshifts are perfect but it laaaags on downshifts. Since you said you've spent time in a GT3RS you should have firsthand experience of how much better PDK is at both. I'm not hating on the car overall -- I love it in fact -- but DCT is far from a perfect transmission. I've driven ZF8's that performed better.
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      06-07-2020, 08:59 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by djMpower View Post
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Originally Posted by DML View Post
But how's the day to day experience, cabin noise too invasive to carry on a conversation? Everything else for me is a go but I hardly drive alone unless work related. I'm still on the bubble here....
Everything else is amazing. Literally 0 complaints. Cabin noise arguably sounds better because due to less sound dampening you hear more of the exhaust, but not to a degree that it's invasive or that would interfere with a conversation. For me personally the no door pockets help a lot for less clutter since I used to keep a lot of junk paper in there. It's honestly pretty great. If I had to try and force a complaint I would say the audio system is noticeably worse than the HK in my old M4. Not bad enough that it's not tolerable, but it's not as punchy and certainly does not get as loud. I used to listen to podcasts and music at 40-50% volume. With this, especially on podcasts, I'm going to 70-80%.
Agreed on all points here.
Though, the audio is really not that bad.

As for lesser sound deadening in the CS:

I usually do my driving with both windows down, when you do this, you don't realize a difference.

But during fall and winter, I really grew to enjoy driving with the windows closed as you realize how much more mechanical noise (rear diff, engine, gravel hitting underside of car) comes thru to inside of the cabin.

It just feels authentic, unfiltered and slightly raw. Mix that with the luxurious feel of the Alcantara/leather upholstery with a squeak/rattle free solid build quality, and it makes you feel like you're in a really high quality car.
Windows down and in my case the rear seats down in my M3CS with an MPE and it's a aural driving pleasure!
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      06-08-2020, 01:46 PM   #39
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Nope. I'm not comparing hypothetical shifts, I'm comparing real life shifts that I did in my '18 6MT ZCP vs. my '20 DCT CS. I'll grant you that at times DCT can downshift rather quickly, but a lot of the times it seems to get confused and there can be upwards of a 1s delay between pressing the paddle and having the transmission engage. If you know how to heel-toe properly you can complete a full shift in less than half a second. Under ideal circumstances DCT beats that, but in real world driving most of the time it doesn't.

Plus, the shift settings don't make too much sense. To get ideal downshifts you want it set to level 3. Except, in level 3, upshifts are so aggressive that they can throw the car out of balance or even kick traction control in. Then if you lower the shift setting to 1 or 2, upshifts are perfect but it laaaags on downshifts. Since you said you've spent time in a GT3RS you should have firsthand experience of how much better PDK is at both. I'm not hating on the car overall -- I love it in fact -- but DCT is far from a perfect transmission. I've driven ZF8's that performed better.
Are you driving it in eco-mode and in automatic mode? Maybe the GTS is different, but in manual mode with engine/transmission in Sport, I have very responsive shifts. I've got tens of thousands of miles driving manuals, hundreds of hours driving manual racecars, and there's no way I'm shifting faster than my DCT.

I do get a shimmy when doing WOT shifts below 5th gear, but I've had the same experience in other high torque DCTs. Pretty certain it's hitting the transmission with nearly full-torque at clutch engagement, or it feels that way.
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      06-08-2020, 08:48 PM   #40
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If I need to get to the lowest gear ASAP in drive, efficiency, and D1, all you do is just hit the downshift paddle and hold it while hitting the throttle, it'll go to the lowest gear possible in a blink of an eye without lag.
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      06-08-2020, 09:12 PM   #41
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the dct cars imo don't make up much time on downshifts, its all on the upshifts where they shift faster and stay in boost while the manual guy has to let off the throttle.

With rev match on its basically a dct downshift. clutch kick vs pulling a paddle. both cars have equal braking ability right ? some cars like the 911 and viper have a no-lift-shift as well i think. so basically keep it floored and and powershift every gear.
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      06-08-2020, 10:05 PM   #42
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I went from ZCP 6MT to ZCP DCT and in normal, every day life the DCT is by far the more efficient/effective transmission. There is zero contest if you just want to move swiftly - both upshifts and downshifts. Upshifts are especially impressive.... even normal every day upshifts, because you can keep your throttle foot right where it was during shifts with absolutely 100% zero turbo lag. It's really, really good (and this is coming from an S54/S65 guy).

However - the 6MT, in the real world, is about 20 times more fun and fulfilling. It is a shocking difference. The gear ratios (long and relaxed relative to DCT) and the full control you have over the motor/driveline suit the S55 like nothing else - it's absolutely sublime. This is a case where something clearly objectively FAR superior (DCT) is just flat out not the better choice for real world fun. Out of all my 6MT 36/46/90Ms.... the ZCP F80 6MT is by far my most favorite. There is, however, one problem with the 6MT - significant turbo lag under aggressive upshifts. For tracking I would chose the DCT all day err day, though.

From this, I would say that if you are even slightly leaning towards the 6MT then the DCT is a mistake and thus the CS should not be considered. The ZCP / 6MT combo is BADASS - the most badass M-Car to date. Trust me.

If I were buying a new M4 right now it would be an IR Heritage 6MT.
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      06-08-2020, 10:08 PM   #43
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Quote:
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Now with the shifting, the CS DCT tune is much more aggressive (feels, sounds amazing) compared to the base M4 I had before. You're fooling yourself if you think you can down shift quicker in a manual. (First 100,000km of my driving life was done on manual)
Nope. I'm not comparing hypothetical shifts, I'm comparing real life shifts that I did in my '18 6MT ZCP vs. my '20 DCT CS. I'll grant you that at times DCT can downshift rather quickly, but a lot of the times it seems to get confused and there can be upwards of a 1s delay between pressing the paddle and having the transmission engage. If you know how to heel-toe properly you can complete a full shift in less than half a second. Under ideal circumstances DCT beats that, but in real world driving most of the time it doesn't.

Plus, the shift settings don't make too much sense. To get ideal downshifts you want it set to level 3. Except, in level 3, upshifts are so aggressive that they can throw the car out of balance or even kick traction control in. Then if you lower the shift setting to 1 or 2, upshifts are perfect but it laaaags on downshifts. Since you said you've spent time in a GT3RS you should have firsthand experience of how much better PDK is at both. I'm not hating on the car overall -- I love it in fact -- but DCT is far from a perfect transmission. I've driven ZF8's that performed better.
That lag on downshift maybe happened once or twice to me during the 15k of driving I've done on it.
If you're on partial throttle as you're accelerating, then give it a downshift, it does seem to hesitate.

Basically, if the car thinks you haven't really decided what you wanna do, it will hesitate.

99% of the time, it reads my mind and shifts with either ferocity or smoothness depending on how I'm driving at the time.

The DCt looks for several variables it seems. Such as brake pedal input, throttle input, and possibly g force.

I leave mine in 2nd setting and it is perfect.

Maybe if you're instructor-pro level driver, you can nail the heel-toe downshifts with speed and accuracy everytime.
But for most of us human beings, DCt can't be beat in terms of speed and accuracy of downshifts time and time again especially when your adrenaline is pumping while on track.
Even then, the DCt will be faster than the time it takes for one's heel to pivot from brake to gas pedal.
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      06-08-2020, 10:10 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by djMpower View Post
Nope. I'm not comparing hypothetical shifts, I'm comparing real life shifts that I did in my '18 6MT ZCP vs. my '20 DCT CS. I'll grant you that at times DCT can downshift rather quickly, but a lot of the times it seems to get confused and there can be upwards of a 1s delay between pressing the paddle and having the transmission engage. If you know how to heel-toe properly you can complete a full shift in less than half a second. Under ideal circumstances DCT beats that, but in real world driving most of the time it doesn't.

Plus, the shift settings don't make too much sense. To get ideal downshifts you want it set to level 3. Except, in level 3, upshifts are so aggressive that they can throw the car out of balance or even kick traction control in. Then if you lower the shift setting to 1 or 2, upshifts are perfect but it laaaags on downshifts. Since you said you've spent time in a GT3RS you should have firsthand experience of how much better PDK is at both. I'm not hating on the car overall -- I love it in fact -- but DCT is far from a perfect transmission. I've driven ZF8's that performed better.
That's odd, I don't feel any undue lag on downshifts in S2. Sure they are not as crisp and immediate as in S3, but they are still at least as fast as what I could achieve. S1 does have significant delay as it will not do a rev-matched downshift most of the time in that mode.
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