Power potential limited?

[bdaddylo]

Originally Posted by basscadet

Putting conversation back on track...

...I was trolling the F30 forums and it seems those guys are seeing no more than 30hp additional to the wheels with a tune. Kind of disappointing, for sure. The tuned N54 engines would blast out 50-75hp over a baseline car all day, no wonder they kept those engines for the 335is.

But this makes me wonder if BMW won't leave a lot on the table for the aftermarket for the F80. Unless this motor is seriously underrated and/or there is a lot of power untapped by the aftermarket, I am just going to have to pass on the M3. Especially for $75k+.

You can't compare the N55 to the S55. They're not the same engine.

BMW left more on the table for the S63Tu, so why would you be concerned about the S55?

[Jockey]

I still don't get the worry about aftermarket tunes with the M3/4. You just spent $70k+ on a car and the first thing you're going to do is chip it and probably rob it of its driveability the M division put so much work in?

I don't buy a car on its aftermarket tune-ability, but that's just me.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I still don't get the worry about aftermarket tunes with the M3/4. You just spent $70k+ on a car and the first thing you're going to do is chip it and probably rob it of its driveability the M division put so much work in?

I don't buy a car on its aftermarket tune-ability, but that's just me.

Very minor influence on driveability when you tune a turbo engine. You can keep the same mapping for daily driving conditions, but add boost for higher power when you floor it. No need to put in racy cams etc that does affect driveability.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Very minor influence on driveability when you tune a turbo engine. You can keep the same mapping for daily driving conditions, but add boost for higher power when you floor it. No need to put in racy cams etc that does affect driveability.

Oh, I know, I've owned a few tuned FI cars. To keep the driveability stock though, you need more than OTS maps with the probable exception of Dinan. Cobb, Vishnu, Dinan, etc all make very good OTS maps though. I've had both Vishnu and Cobb tunes on my previous vehicles and liked them immensely. They were however on a vehicle that was half the cost of an M3 and did not have the R&D investment in them equal that of an M car.

But I digress, my main point is buying a car because of its tuneability or worrying that a tuned car will be faster than mine do not factor into my decision to purchase a car.

First, I can't use even 80% of the capability of my car now on the street so what's the point in even making it faster (for that matter, I can't drive it 80% on the track without overdriving it ). Second, there will always be cheaper, faster, tuned cars on the road that will beat me in a straight line. Again, don't care. I don't buy cars to be the biggest swinging dick on the roads.

My ego is already inflated enough flying fighters

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I still don't get the worry about aftermarket tunes with the M3/4. You just spent $70k+ on a car and the first thing you're going to do is chip it and probably rob it of its driveability the M division put so much work in?

I do not like it any more than you do. But for some of us, 430hp is not enough. I was not happy with the power of the E9X M3 and I want my next car to have significantly more power, but I still need 4 doors.

My goal is not stoplight racing, my goal is to give the car enough power that it can have authoritative power at highway speeds for the purposes of passing other vehicles in the 70+ mph range. My E92 M3 fell flat on its face at those speeds.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by basscadet

I do not like it any more than you do. But for some of us, 430hp is not enough. I was not happy with the power of the E9X M3 and I want my next car to have significantly more power, but I still need 4 doors.

My goal is not stoplight racing, my goal is to give the car enough power that it can have authoritative power at highway speeds for the purposes of passing other vehicles in the 70+ mph range. My E92 M3 fell flat on its face at those speeds.

sounds like your goal is to race on the highway. dangerous and dumb.

i never complained about lack of power in any of my m3's especially on a race track. before modding it, take your underpowered 430hp 70k car to a bmw cca hpde and then report back if you think the car is lacking anything.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by basscadet

I do not like it any more than you do. But for some of us, 430hp is not enough. I was not happy with the power of the E9X M3 and I want my next car to have significantly more power, but I still need 4 doors.

My goal is not stoplight racing, my goal is to give the car enough power that it can have authoritative power at highway speeds for the purposes of passing other vehicles in the 70+ mph range. My E92 M3 fell flat on its face at those speeds.

You think 430 hp is underpowered? That's not enough to pass someone doing 70+ on the highway? Have you tried downshifting?

So you want 4-doors and more than 430 hp? Cool, there are cars out there that do that. Maybe you have heard of the M5.

You want to play, you gotta pay.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by basscadet

My goal is not stoplight racing, my goal is to give the car enough power that it can have authoritative power at highway speeds for the purposes of passing other vehicles in the 70+ mph range. My E92 M3 fell flat on its face at those speeds.

I understand your goal, although I have to disagree sharply with your last statement. My M3 provides fantastic passing power at highway speeds (and that's despite it being a heavy e93). I just drop to either second or third gear depending on speed and it pulls like a freight train.

But anyway, on the topic of "authoritative power" I can relate to some degree. Part of the allure of driving a high performance car is that it makes driving fun. So I want a car that can give me the power to get around slow traffic (and poor drivers, such as left-lane campers) as swiftly as possible. In fact, that act itself should be entertaining.

But secondarily, there is the more intangible desire to make some degree of statement with the car so as to keep others from wanting to race or harass. I don't want a race, I don't want a pissing match, I just want to have fun and get on about my business at my personally preferred pace. Now we all know that the average layman measures a cars capability solely by its horsepower figure. So driving a 430hp car invites negative attention from a larger segment of the puffed-chest population than a 500hp one does. In other words, 4xx hp has been commoditized now, so the game needs to be upped. Anyway, this is not a major point of priority, but it is there. And I am not so altruistic to as to deny it.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I understand your goal, although I have to disagree sharply with your last statement. My M3 provides fantastic passing power at highway speeds (and that's despite it being a heavy e93). I just drop to either second or third gear depending on speed and it pulls like a freight train.

But anyway, on the topic of "authoritative power" I can relate to some degree. Part of the allure of driving a high performance car is that it makes driving fun. So I want a car that can give me the power to get around slow traffic (and poor drivers, such as left-lane campers) as swiftly as possible. In fact, that act itself should be entertaining.

But secondarily, there is the more intangible desire to make some degree of statement with the car so as to keep others from wanting to race or harass. I don't want a race, I don't want a pissing match, I just want to have fun and get on about my business at my personally preferred pace. Now we all know that the average layman measures a cars capability solely by its horsepower figure. So driving a 430hp car invites negative attention from a larger segment of the puffed-chest population than a 500hp one does. In other words, 4xx hp has been commoditized now, so the game needs to be upped. Anyway, this is not a major point of priority, but it is there. And I am not so altruistic to as to deny it.

That may way too much sense

[basscadet]

I am not interested in chest-thumping so I can brag to the guy at work about horsepower. This is probably more an argument about gearing and torque than horsepower.

My last car had vast reserves of torque and was exceptionally quick but lacks the 4 doors I need. I don't need a rocket ship or bragging rights, I just want a car that has a powertrain worthy of the price tag and in line with what competitors are doing.

[pfl]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I understand your goal, although I have to disagree sharply with your last statement. My M3 provides fantastic passing power at highway speeds (and that's despite it being a heavy e93). I just drop to either second or third gear depending on speed and it pulls like a freight train.

But anyway, on the topic of "authoritative power" I can relate to some degree. Part of the allure of driving a high performance car is that it makes driving fun. So I want a car that can give me the power to get around slow traffic (and poor drivers, such as left-lane campers) as swiftly as possible. In fact, that act itself should be entertaining.

But secondarily, there is the more intangible desire to make some degree of statement with the car so as to keep others from wanting to race or harass. I don't want a race, I don't want a pissing match, I just want to have fun and get on about my business at my personally preferred pace. Now we all know that the average layman measures a cars capability solely by its horsepower figure. So driving a 430hp car invites negative attention from a larger segment of the puffed-chest population than a 500hp one does. In other words, 4xx hp has been commoditized now, so the game needs to be upped. Anyway, this is not a major point of priority, but it is there. And I am not so altruistic to as to deny it.

Agreed. I'd also go to say that I had no issues with my E92 M3... until I drove the C63. I felt S65 was perfect and maybe lacked a bit of torque but after driving the C63, talk about a car that drives with authority at any RPM.

I've been a bit worried about BMW M cars in general. Looking at their competitors in AMG and Audi RS, I feel that BMW is becoming what AMG was a few years ago... and now AMG has been beating M in more categories including handling and ring time. Hope M3/M4 do well.

[Chill72]

Originally Posted by basscadet

my goal is to give the car enough power that it can have authoritative power at highway speeds for the purposes of passing other vehicles in the 70+ mph range. My E92 M3 fell flat on its face at those speeds.

Are you driving on Daytona 500 race track? WTF are you talking about? E92 is probably at top 5% of the cars on the road when accelerating from 70 MPH on (in proper gear).

This comment leads me to believe that you don't even know what your car is capable of...assuming that you even own M3.

WOW

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by Chill72

Are you driving on Daytona 500 race track? WTF are you talking about? E92 is probably at top 5% of the cars on the road when accelerating from 70 MPH on (in proper gear).

This comment leads me to believe that you don't even know what your car is capable of...assuming that you even own M3.

WOW

Or, more likely, he's in sitting in top gear.

As a side note, I have a hard time understanding when people complain about needing to downshift. Rev-matching downshifts and hearing that incredible sound is one of the great joys of my life.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

Or, more likely, he's in sitting in top gear.

As a side note, I have a hard time understanding when people complain about needing to downshift. Rev-matching downshifts and hearing that incredible sound is one of the great joys of my life.

I really don't think its that complex. I mean, I agree with you and like the m3 as it stands, especially on the track.

that said, more power is never really a bad thing, and you can always manage the throttle so the power doesn't overcome the grip levels.

I can understand where he is coming from, some people prefer torque to come in at lower RPMs, and although it isn't a huge issue for me, I can understand how it would be.

[JoeFromPA]

I think people are confusing staying in gear and hitting the go pedal at highway speeds and passing authoritatively, and picking the right gear for max acceleration at highway speeds.

I daily drive a vehicle with over 600 lb/ft of torque at 2000 rpms. It will pull hard at 70mph when I give it 50% throttle. I also daily drive (less frequently) an e39 m5 which is closest to the f8x M specifications at least.

The difference in 2000-3000rpm pulling power between the e39 m5 and the e9x m3 is amazing. The e39 m5 pulls well in every gear at those engine speeds.

Now the f8x is going to be ~500 pounds lighter than an e39 m5 and with as much or more torque across an even broader powerband. It's going to be satisfying in a way the e9x m3 never was in terms of low-medium engine speed pulling.

I'm basing that assumption upon specs obviously. But let me put it another way.

The f8x m3/m4 should pull, at low engine speeds, like a tuned n54 does.

Bear in mind that at this level of torque you are near the level of traction a RWD street-driven car can handle in most situations on dry road. Tire technology is really improving, but at ~3400 pounds and wide rear tires and ~370 lb/ft of torque, you are going to spin fairly easily.

I've got another 500 pounds on the f8x M, and similar output, and I spin my Michelin pilot super sports frequently.

[basscadet]

Guys, when I talk about having the power to pass cars at 70+mph with authority, I am not talking about staying in the same gear and just mashing the gas pedal. The downshift is assumed.

A downshift into 4th or 5th in cars like a Z06 or GT-R at those speeds will rocket past groupings of slow cars on the highway as if they were sitting still. It's an intoxicating experience. Hell, even the 5.0 Mustang could do this. (I've owned all of these cars). The S65 just seemed to run out of lungs, I felt like I was really pushing her hard to ask for a 70-100mph jaunt.

I don't mind winding a motor up, it is a thrilling experience, but in my E92 M3 I just felt like I had to do it **all** of the time.

What JoefromPA said above is spot-on. I think the F80 should pull pretty damn hard all over the RPM range which is going to make it a much better track car to boot.

[JoeFromPA]

Basscadet - Glad what I wrote hit the right tone for you. Surprised by your comment about the e9x m3 not giving you the passing power you are expecting.

If you don't mind a blunt question, are you perhaps being fooled by the lack of sound-volume and torque-feeling in the m3 at those speeds?

The other cars you mention: Vette, 5.0 mustang, etc....they all have significant torque, less high-RPM spinners, and very pronounced/throaty sounds when being hammered at speed.

[F82_SID]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

Or, more likely, he's in sitting in top gear.

As a side note, I have a hard time understanding when people complain about needing to downshift. Rev-matching downshifts and hearing that incredible sound is one of the great joys of my life.

I love the downshift! Rev-matching and downshifting a MT in a NA V8 is pure bliss. Then you just hold on!.. I hate people that are more worried about the specs then the driving enjoyment. Sure we all want to have the fastest car possible for bragging rights or racing or whatever other reason but, when it comes down to it.. driving pleasure is #1 in my book! That is why I buy a BMW and not an AMG or a GTR or a GT500. IMO, BMW M's are the most fun and enjoyable and rewarding cars that I have ever driven! The people who still obsess over the E30 M3 know exactly what I am talking about!

[zltm089]

Yes, we all know that M cars are about driving experience, lightness and handling. Ok we got that!

All I have to say is that all the "new" hot hatches coming out push over 300bhp nowadays.

A45 AMG, Golf R400, M135I, RS3, etc

And then you have the proper sports cars like the new 911 Turbo and GTRs.... all over 500bhp....

Current c63 amg and RS5 are also well over 400bhp....

And super cars are on on over 650bhp ....

Lots of horses out there... would be good to see how the std M4 competes on a straight line... (Yes, I know M cars aren't about straight lines....but for 1 sec, enough of the small penis excuse of size does not matter...).

[jc05e46m3]

I feel like his S65 is missing two cylinders?

[Brady1984]

This is the type of thread that other boards make fun of. There is no amount of power too great for a car no one has driven, the war on paper rages; I get that. But not enough power to pass on the highway and racing past people at 100 on the highway? Great job bro's that's part of the reason BMW owners have such a poor reputation. This is you...right now:

[Bowser330]

I posted the following in the previous S55 tuning thread, I thought it might be of value here as well....

I read here that the S55 may be running TF035 turbos

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=924954

Subarus have been using a single TF035 on the Forester and after some googling I found several forum posts saying that people boost them at 12-15psi for years without problems. Although they do mention that 15psi the turbos become inefficient...Also the Subaru TF035's are using the 14T sized compressor wheel while the S55 turbos have the 17T size, according to the link above.

Therefore it seems possible that two TF035-17T turbos on the S55 could boost up to 24psi pretty efficiently (12psi each) which would result in significant performance gains, possibly without significant octane enrichment....

Keep in mind N54's with upgraded RB Turbos running methanol injection can boost 23psi in the mid range and 20psi at peak and are putting down 550whp max power...
http://blog.protuningfreaks.com/2012...-world-record/