Poll - Are E9X M3 owners biased against the new M4?

[Oaktree]

Originally Posted by karussell

What I am worried about this car though is

Heat Soak issues
oil cooling


all on track. continuous lapping. I think this car should be able to handle a weekend at the track driven properly bone stock.

I hear you, I'm worried about that also but I hope from the M5 issues, 335i issues they have figured it out

[phrozen06]

Originally Posted by stefan

We don't know the actual performance specifications yet.. MIGHT want to reserve judgement.

[ES BMW]

I've only had my '13 M3 for about 5 months and still on the honeymoon but, I really love this car. I do like the looks of the M4 but I'm in no hurry to drop my S65 and go back to forced induction. After driving turbocharged cars for the last 12 years, I can't believe I don't miss it.

Besides, it's even bigger than the E92! Definitely not a plus for me.

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by zuschnell

At the end of the day, there just aren't that many cars that you can drive an hour to the track, race, drive an hour back home, strap the kids' car seats back in, and then go out for a family dinner in comfort.

Actually, I do exactly this in my 328i.

Back OT..... I think every version of the M3 is desirable but not for the same reasons as the car evolves. The M4 will also be special and hopefully be different enough from the E9X to stand on it's own as a true M car. The next episode if you will.

[Thurman Murch]

The S65 is bespoke

I heard from BMW techs that the N/S63 is prone to stress cracks from the heat they produce... They didn't see this coming... I was told to ditch my M5 before the warranty expires

Yeah but the new one will be more fuel efficient and have more torque and might be faster in a hill climb but let's hope the hpfp and clogged middle injectors don't come back

The M3 has the flares and the carbon roof

Does anyone know the turbo model number used in the alpine b3 biturbo? Would this give clues to the S55?

[NutsaboutM3]

And you should have an choice as:

"I own(ed) an E9X M3 and I hate that they change the name of the new M3 Coupe to M4!"

[Envyscorpio]

Have both E46 and E90 right now. To be honest, I like the new car's front sharp lines and I don't mind adding the new M3/4 to the collection. But the design does feel like it focused too much on the front and rear with pretty boring body. I still remember when the E46 came out, everyone was saying it's heavy and lost it's classic "boxy" design. Now everyone's benchmarking it to the E9x and F.

The new car does feel a little less special with shared engine parts. And the size will promote it into the fast GT category in coupe form with redundant rear space (I rarely have rear seat passengers, and none complained about the space in the E46 yet). I have others to do people-hauling work. Now imagine a grandcoupe M4 with the same front and rear with 4 doors adding some design in between. That makes more sense to me.

Name wise, I still prefer the "3". BMW changed it's corporate tradition imagine with a name's just a name car brand compare to the Porsche. But yes, a name's just a name.

[bmwowners]

Put another answer "I love the new M4 but I hate the name!"

[MA///M3]

Originally Posted by Carlos_Danger

My thoughts exactly every e9x M3 owner hates the new M4 just because it looks better, it makes the M3 look like 10 years old, but the blame is on them who in their right mind buys a 2013 M3!!! when you know the replacement is months ahead and like with every new iteration it'll be better, lighter, faster, i talk about the 2013 M3 owners who seemed to be the group that's most hateful of the new model

It appears from the results you are incorrect. Same could be said who bought the M5 before it was improved with the competition package, when everyone knew it was months or a year ahead. Sucks huh?

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by NutsaboutM3

And you should have an choice as:

"I own(ed) an E9X M3 and I hate that they change the name of the new M3 Coupe to M4!"

+1

[ChrisK]

I hate to admit it, but I was one the people that complained BMW went to a V8 in the e9x M3 - until I drove it! I will pass judgement on the the M3/M4 once the critics get their hands on it.

My concern - The new Fxx series cars have lost something in the interior. I really despise the new Navi screen, it looks like the top half of a tablet sticking out of the dash. If it retracted... that would have been acceptable.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Carlos_Danger

thanks for that it shows great maturity in you, and if you decided to get an M3 knowing that it was the last production year and that a new car was coming, I'm sure you won't get the M4, but thanks for being humble and accepting that you like the new car BTW the whole naturally aspirated vs forced induction isn't such a big deal, just look how the F10s V8 is far superior than the e60s V10, this will also be the case well get a more powerful more fuel efficient engine than the s65

Far superior according to who? If you haven't read that the s63 is less engaging than the s85 you should probably be reading more car mags.

[jml]

When the E9X came out, I had an E46.

Things I was worried about before I moved to the E9X and what I think today:

Weight will be an issue - turned out to be 300lbs more than my E46M, and had a big impact on track fun.
No chainsaw insane I6 - the S65 is an batshit insane engine, it is the star of the show and only reason I've kept the car.
Steering will be worse because BMW steering is getting worse - yes, steering is worse that the E46, numb and barely a pulse compared to a 911 or the e46. But it is super accurate.
Brakes, no fixed caliper, need another 6K for stoptechs - well, they turned out to be far more capable that I expected, and with pads and fluid, up to track duty with rcomps, but just barely.
Handling will be worse because of the weight - wow, the E9X is a total step function improvement over the E46, not even in the same ballpark. More grip everywhere, and zero understeer. They really improved the camber curve and balance.
Creature comforts, bah I don't need them - turns out the E9X is a great daily driver and the audio system (enhanced) is light years better that the previous model.

So looking to the Next generation, I am worried about

Weight - I simply don't believe that they will take a significant amount of weight out to matter (>150lbs). (I hope I am wrong)

Steering - What is already bad (but best in class) will get way worse with an electric rack, much like what has happened to every other BMW model with an electric rack. (I hope I am wrong, but even Porsche got it wrong on the 991, so I don't have much hope)

I6 Turbo - Lag and not free revving. And please no engine noise synthesized through the audio system. (I really hope I am wrong, the S54 and S65 were such a core element of the M cars....what ever in the new one has big shoes to fill)

But honestly I will buy a 4-door pretty much no matter what, unless the engine is crap. There is nothing else on the market with 4 doors that checks more boxes. Though I do have my eye on a E63 Wagon and a Cayenne GTS, since I don't need my daily to serve track duty any more.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by jml

When the E9X came out, I had an E46.

Things I was worried about before I moved to the E9X and what I think today:

Weight will be an issue - turned out to be 300lbs more than my E46M, and had a big impact on track fun.
No chainsaw insane I6 - the S65 is an batshit insane engine, it is the star of the show and only reason I've kept the car.
Steering will be worse because BMW steering is getting worse - yes, steering is worse that the E46, numb and barely a pulse compared to a 911 or the e46. But it is super accurate.
Brakes, no fixed caliper, need another 6K for stoptechs - well, they turned out to be far more capable that I expected, and with pads and fluid, up to track duty with rcomps, but just barely.
Handling will be worse because of the weight - wow, the E9X is a total step function improvement over the E46, not even in the same ballpark. More grip everywhere, and zero understeer. They really improved the camber curve and balance.
Creature comforts, bah I don't need them - turns out the E9X is a great daily driver and the audio system (enhanced) is light years better that the previous model.

So looking to the Next generation, I am worried about

Weight - I simply don't believe that they will take a significant amount of weight out to matter (>150lbs). (I hope I am wrong)

Steering - What is already bad (but best in class) will get way worse with an electric rack, much like what has happened to every other BMW model with an electric rack. (I hope I am wrong, but even Porsche got it wrong on the 991, so I don't have much hope)

I6 Turbo - Lag and not free revving. And please no engine noise synthesized through the audio system. (I really hope I am wrong, the S54 and S65 were such a core element of the M cars....what ever in the new one has big shoes to fill)

But honestly I will buy a 4-door pretty much no matter what, unless the engine is crap. There is nothing else on the market with 4 doors that checks more boxes. Though I do have my eye on a E63 Wagon and a Cayenne GTS, since I don't need my daily to serve track duty any more.

Good points and well thought out post.

[V8FunNaturally]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I've seen this claimed. Let's try to see what a poll says. Surely you can't get an absolute answer but I'll give it a try. You may have mixed feelings about the new car and obviously we don't know many key things like power to weight, thus this is preliminary. Your exact feelings may not be categorized here - try to just go with your gut.

I see old swamp is still around. So which you like most, posting on the M3 forum, or driving your V8 ? We had quite a few heated car arguments back then before the V8 M3 came out. Strange poll, not sure what your agenda is for posting that but not the kind of thing you would have posted back in 07.
Very happy with my V8 M3, it looks like like BMW reached an apex with that car. Still the most reliable BMW and there is nothing like a free breathing V8. No turbo 6 car for me unless it is AWD. To go against the competition today there are no other routes. Unless you want to drive a 600 Kg RWD kart with a light engine, the only way to keep up with the competition now is AWD + turbo(s). Just look at the Nurburging top 30 cars. Those which are not AWD have to weight much much less.
I don't like the M4 exterior either. Too flat, lacking musculature, oversimplified sides, hoodline moved above BMW emblem. Looks small. I think M2 would have been a better name for it.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by Carlos_Danger

It will obviously be better than the current engine in the M3, or you think engineers spent the last couple of years building a slower engine? a less efficient engine? thats just dumb

I'm hoping the engine will manage to feel linear and be reliable especially on a track.

What I am worried is the engine will have heat soak issues as exhibited in every modern bmw turbo engine to date including the S63TU.

BMW's use of an inline 6 turbo likely derived from the N55 is based on saving costs and improving fuel economy while also improving on performance. Its a monumental engineering task and if anyone can pull it off its the folks at BMW M. Reliability will be a concern because this engine will likely be one of the most complicated BMW has ever made.

So better engine than S65? I hope. but this is very subjective. to me for it to be better it needs to keep up repeated laps on a summer weekend at buttonwillow with 130F track temps and still get you back home in comfort. no limp mode, no overheating, no heat soak and 20% power loss.

[karussell]

Originally Posted by Carlos_Danger

thanks for that it shows great maturity in you, and if you decided to get an M3 knowing that it was the last production year and that a new car was coming, I'm sure you won't get the M4, but thanks for being humble and accepting that you like the new car BTW the whole naturally aspirated vs forced induction isn't such a big deal, just look how the F10s V8 is far superior than the e60s V10, this will also be the case well get a more powerful more fuel efficient engine than the s65

your definition of what is superior is not the same as mine. To me for a sports car the engine has to be fun. Sure the S63TU is a great motor in its own right and fun but The S85 was just an insanely fun motor to me. A V10 that revs all the way to 8300rpm. It was just plane nuts and to put it into a 4 door sedan was even more insane. I was never a fan of the looks of the E60 but that car sure would put a smile on my face when I drove it. i have driven the F10 M5 several times now. On the track and on public roads. I test drove one of the early demos. Just didn't like it as much as the last car. Still can induce turbo lag and its such a damn big car now. my favorite M5 was and always will be the E39. and I consider the E90 a modern incarnation of that car with an even better engine. The M4 has massive shoes to fill.

fuel economy be damned. i could care less about it. linear power delivery and with the least amount of complexity possible with the least amount of weight.

I'm still hopeful that the engine in the new M3/M4 will live up to all its predecessors. design wise, the F82 I think is probably the best looking modern BMW. Excited to try one out.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by sunsweet

I see old swamp is still around. So which you like most, posting on the M3 forum, or driving your V8 ? We had quite a few heated car arguments back then before the V8 M3 came out. Strange poll, not sure what your agenda is for posting that but not the kind of thing you would have posted back in 07.
Very happy with my V8 M3, it looks like like BMW reached an apex with that car. Still the most reliable BMW and there is nothing like a free breathing V8. No turbo 6 car for me unless it is AWD. To go against the competition today there are no other routes. Unless you want to drive a 600 Kg RWD kart with a light engine, the only way to keep up with the competition now is AWD + turbo(s). Just look at the Nurburging top 30 cars. Those which are not AWD have to weight much much less.
I don't like the M4 exterior either. Too flat, lacking musculature, oversimplified sides, hoodline moved above BMW emblem. Looks small. I think M2 would have been a better name for it.

Howdy, I'm still pretty active here. I don't recall our prior debates but debate is certainly part of what I enjoy here.

I got a bit reinvigorated in the forum as more and more M4 information started trickling in and after we finally got a good look at the exterior of the M4. There is indeed both personal and a community motivation behind the poll. Many who really like the M4 thus far insist that all of those of us who don't like it are largely current M3 owners who are just "worried" in some way due to their ownership and their impending eclipsing of their car. Although I still own and adore my M3, I am in the camp of not being too impressed with the looks of the car and certainly not too excited about the FI route. I really do not think that my ownership biases me against the car, I think for what we know, my personally low level of excitement is not bias. I'm nowhere near as excited about this car as I was the E92 M3.

It is not at all clear if I asked the question in the best way to locate bias. But as the question was asked there does appear to be some validity to the claim mentioned above (i.e. a bias). One is just about precisely twice as likely to dislike the M4 if the own a current M3 (26% vs 13%).

My math on that is:

(# own&dislike)/(total # own) vs.
(# don't own&dislike)/(total # don't own)

[V8FunNaturally]

Originally Posted by swamp2

It is not at all clear if I asked the question in the best way to locate bias. But as the question was asked there does appear to be some validity to the claim mentioned above (i.e. a bias). One is just about precisely twice as likely to dislike the M4 if the own a current M3 (26% vs 13%).

My math on that is:

(# own&dislike)/(total # own) vs.
(# don't own&dislike)/(total # don't own)

Interesting, I think you got the correct mathematical ratios . If you had divided by total number of poll entries instead it would have added undue weight to the most numerous group taking the poll.
But I suspect the 'don't own' group to have the bias in favor by nature of being on the forum. These are the people coveting the new car and with sufficient interest to follow its unveiling justifying time spend for their attention even if not all are potential buyers. To get a truly unbiased answer you would need to poll the "don't own who are not forum members". I bet that poll will be closer to the "own" dislike number.

I may be wrong on that but let me mention sth else. When the V8 M3 was created and developed the economy was much healthier. But this current M generation was developed during less auspicious economic times. When revenues go down, companies still have to make a living by working better profit margin and usually that means doing manufacturing cost reduction. It is more challenging to produce a same value product with less money. I am not saying that is why the M4 brakes calipers are smaller (after all it is a lighter car, but even the large ones we have were not enough for some) Generally speaking this scenario is not ideal to engineers and limits what they can accomplish, or compromise for.

Anyway I am very glad your M3 is still running fierce and strong as you got one of the first wave. I waited too long after not getting approved for an individual paint twice. Very happy now.

[RMB]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Good points and well thought out post.

The Cayenne in S, GTS and Turbo formats is a lot of fun. I think you would enjoy a test drive in the GTS. Porsche really does a nice job with their vehicles and the Cayenne is great at doing a lot of things. This would fit the bill of a daily driver quite well.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by RMB

The Cayenne in S, GTS and Turbo formats is a lot of fun. I think you would enjoy a test drive in the GTS. Porsche really does a nice job with their vehicles and the Cayenne is great at doing a lot of things. This would fit the bill of a daily driver quite well.

I know where you are coming from. But I just have never been a fan of the way the exterior looks in the Cayenne.

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by karussell

your definition of what is superior is not the same as mine. To me for a sports car the engine has to be fun. Sure the S63TU is a great motor in its own right and fun but The S85 was just an insanely fun motor to me. A V10 that revs all the way to 8300rpm. It was just plane nuts and to put it into a 4 door sedan was even more insane. I was never a fan of the looks of the E60 but that car sure would put a smile on my face when I drove it. i have driven the F10 M5 several times now. On the track and on public roads. I test drove one of the early demos. Just didn't like it as much as the last car. Still can induce turbo lag and its such a damn big car now. my favorite M5 was and always will be the E39. and I consider the E90 a modern incarnation of that car with an even better engine. The M4 has massive shoes to fill.

fuel economy be damned. i could care less about it. linear power delivery and with the least amount of complexity possible with the least amount of weight.

I'm still hopeful that the engine in the new M3/M4 will live up to all its predecessors. design wise, the F82 I think is probably the best looking modern BMW. Excited to try one out.

I agree that V10 is just nuts. my friend had one, and i loved IT! the noise the power is what made feel BMW M was different than the rest.

sure the new engine is more powerful, BUT there is nothing special about it. like you said who the hell puts a V10 in a sedan! HAHA i will miss these days!