BMW Value

[khanyam4]

Op I agree with what you're saying about m cars being a bargain when compare to the more prestigious automaker but if we all truly were looking for value or bargain we wouldn't be here.

[dhoggm3]

Some people own both Ferraris and M3's because they do very different things very well, and the smiles are different sizes for different prices. I agree with the "I think it's worth the price" post. Funny how opinion forums can sometimes become lecterns.

[s4play]

Value???? Are you kidding, any performance car depreciates in value FASTER than other "normal" cars. Maybe I'm mis-reading what you are stating.

Go look at a minivan, Toyota Camry/Corolla or Accord....now those cars hold their value well

[Nang Vann]

Originally Posted by mrkhanna16

Don't ever compare the M4 to the gt3....ever..... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CARS!

lol calm down hash brown

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by khanyam3

Op I agree with what you're saying about m cars being a bargain when compare to the more prestigious automaker but if we all truly were looking for value or bargain we wouldn't be here.

I bought a Subaru Impreza GTTurbo AWD back in '99, 218PS, 5.9s 0-62mph and a great entertainer, it could 'devastate' a former E39 540i/Audi A8 on the Autobahn as well and I could keep up with some 911s... It was about 22k euros.(50k Dutch florins) and a 328i E46 was already double the price of that.

Talking about real bargains.

And a GT3/458 never is and was a bargain, neither is an M6. Totally different cars, a bit like comparing the Impreza GTT to a 911...at the end of the day you always want the latter. The only problem is the pricetag...

I'm happy with the value(..) of my 1M though.

Cheers
Robin

[Powaup]

I used to kind of think like OP until I drove a Panamera 4S, it really sparked something, first time I got that similar to sex feeling while driving, changed my whole perception about cars. Also working valet few years ago helped a lot even if I only got to drive cars about 400 yards at most I drove just about everything out there and that really helped my perspective of cars, never judge a car until you drive it.

As for the Ferrari comments: I had the opportunity to take a gallardo LP-560 for a spin and no numbers or words could describe that experience and the way it made me feel (I was shaking when I got out of the car lol) point is: super cars are in a different league than other cars and yes I would pay >$200K for one.

O.P: i suggest checking out www.relayrides.com to see if anyone has a 911(or any outher car you are interested in) for rent in your area and rent it for a day or weekend, I rented a 996 carerra for my bday weekend for 280$ and had the time of my life!!

[s4awd]

Originally Posted by mrkhanna16

Don't ever compare the M4 to the gt3....ever..... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CARS!

Mrkhanna is right though. You really can't compare the two. The GT3 is a race car from Porsche's motorsport division. You hear, feel, smell it's cup car DNA. It's performance was literally light years ahead of my e92. I can't even imagine comparing the new 991 GT3 to the M4. M cars are sporty cars, not race cars. I purchased a 997.2 3.8 RS and it's going for up to $200k on the used market and the 4.0 is fetching over $350k. My GT500 for $60k makes my $100k plus M5 feel like a turtle. The M5 will prolly be worth $40k in another 2-3 years where there are people scrambling to grab the last of the 5.8l shelbys. I will always be a fan but value is not even considered when I purchase an M car.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by s4awd

Mrkhanna is right though. You really can't compare the two. The GT3 is a race car from Porsche's motorsport division. You hear, feel, smell it's cup car DNA. It's performance was literally light years ahead of my e92. I can't even imagine comparing the new 991 GT3 to the M4. M cars are sporty cars, not race cars. I purchased a 997.2 3.8 RS and it's going for up to $200k on the used market and the 4.0 is fetching over $350k. My GT500 for $60k makes my $100k plus M5 feel like a turtle. The M5 will prolly be worth $40k in another 2-3 years where there are people scrambling to grab the last of the 5.8l shelbys. I will always be a fan but value is not even considered when I purchase an M car.

Word!

[s4play]

Originally Posted by darkalley

Like I said I love my Honda S2000! Plus in the 3 years I've owned it the car has gone up $5,000 in value!! Also if you bought a low mileage 2010 GT3 about 12 months ago for "market" you could have driven it and made $15,000 if you sold it today! How's that for value!

Can't say I agree with the GT3 value but the s2000 and even more so NSX market is definitely on the rise with fine examples being harder to find with each passing day.

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by basscadet

The M3 is a great compromise for the enthusiast who needs day-to-day utility. This is the "BMW value" that the OP speaks of. From the late 1980s until very recently if you needed to haul children, groceries, or put people in a back seat the M3 was the go-to car.

Infiniti made a run at BMW in the mid 2000s but seems to have given up the chase.

Now Cadillac, Ford, and Mercedes are in the chase. Are their offerings exactly the same as BMW's? No. But each of those 3 have cars that scratch an itch that only the M3 had been able to reach.

I just bought a CTS-V. Never in a thousand years did I think I would own a goddamned Cadillac. But it's an incredible car, there is little hope that a F8X M3/M4 can keep up with me either on a race track or at the dragstrip, especially if mods are on the table. And most importantly, it's fun to drive and has torque all over the place. Yes, it's ugly. Yes, it's American and doesn't have prestige. But I paid nearly half what a F80 will cost me for a car that is less than a year old with 10k miles.

I do think comparing a M3 to a GT3 is a little ridiculous as the GT3 gives up a ton of utility for driving pleasure and speed.

Good post, and congrats on the car purchase. The CTS-V is a beast, and I'd love to own one someday.

With that said, if it's a track car you're looking for, I wouldn't be so sure about the CTS-V being better than the new M4 (although we won't really know how the M4 performs on track for several more months).

I'm sure it can put some fast laps down, but it doesn't make a great choice of track car for the same reason the M5 isn't a better option for a track car: weight. At 4250 lbs, the CTS-V will run through consumables (pads, tires) like nobody's business.

Even my E92 M3 at 3550 lbs is pushing the boundaries of acceptability (at least with my wallet). My next car needs to be lighter...

[Patronus86]

Originally Posted by s4play

Value???? Are you kidding, any performance car depreciates in value FASTER than other "normal" cars. Maybe I'm mis-reading what you are stating.

Go look at a minivan, Toyota Camry/Corolla or Accord....now those cars hold their value well

Yeah some of the Japanese brands hold value over time. But compare a CPO BMW or even a post warranty BMW to similar used cars made by Ford, GM..BMW's are noted for holding their value fairly well due to the brand credibility. Even the performance lines (m3's, m5's) hold their value extremely well compared to american daily drivers, muscle and performance cars (with the exception of the special editions like the shelby gt500 and zl1).

But in any case, that wasn't the point of my thread...I was really pointing to BMW's MSRP's being much more reasonable than what porsche, ferrari, Jaguar (high end performance and luxury brands) charge for their cars.

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

I bought a Subaru Impreza GTTurbo AWD back in '99, 218PS, 5.9s 0-62mph and a great entertainer, it could 'devastate' a former E39 540i/Audi A8 on the Autobahn as well and I could keep up with some 911s... It was about 22k euros.(50k Dutch florins) and a 328i E46 was already double the price of that.

Talking about real bargains.

Yeah, I know BMW's cost/performance ratio doesn't look so good when compared to subarau, ford, nissan, ect. I was only making the comparison to the other high end euro brands. A BMW 328i does have a higher quality and refinement over Subaru...does it justify the 2x the cost of a subaru Impreza? Debatable...but there certainly is some justification for a higher price.

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

And a GT3/458 never is and was a bargain, neither is an M6. Totally different cars, a bit like comparing the Impreza GTT to a 911...at the end of the day you always want the latter. The only problem is the pricetag...

Regardless of whether or not the GT3 and 458 are totally different cars (which I agree they are) they aren't good bargains as you say, and that was my point. The M6 by comparison, though still very pricey, looks a lot more reasonable. $112k for a M6 that can haul ass on the Nurburgring or $233k for a ferrari 458 that can do it 30 sec faster. Yeah the 458 is faster, looks cooler, handles better, ect...but does that justify the extra $100k+?

Originally Posted by Powaup

I used to kind of think like OP until I drove a Panamera 4S, it really sparked something, first time I got that similar to sex feeling while driving, changed my whole perception about cars.... never judge a car until you drive it.

I am not judging the car, I'm judging its price tag.

Originally Posted by Powaup

As for the Ferrari comments: I had the opportunity to take a gallardo LP-560 for a spin and no numbers or words could describe that experience and the way it made me feel (I was shaking when I got out of the car lol) point is: super cars are in a different league than other cars and yes I would pay >$200K for one.

Again, I haven't driven this car, and probably never will...I believe everyone when they say it is a totally different driving experience. But even being different and awesome, the $233k price tag is more a byproduct of ferrari driving up the price and less of the car actually costing that much to produce (factored from manufacturing, labor fees, raw materials, transport, ect.)

Originally Posted by s4awd

Mrkhanna is right though. You really can't compare the two. The GT3 is a race car from Porsche's motorsport division. You hear, feel, smell it's cup car DNA. It's performance was literally light years ahead of my e92. I can't even imagine comparing the new 991 GT3 to the M4. M cars are sporty cars, not race cars.

I don't know why I am the first to bring this up.... M cars, especially the current M3, are also race cars. Turn on the TV, its not hard to find them. And the cars in the M Performance Division have reflected BMW's historic racing heritage, going back decades at this point. And the M3, especially the GTS version has been compared to the 911 gt3 on numerous car journals and websites. A forum member posted those videos earlier on in this thread...check them out when you get a chance.

Originally Posted by s4awd

I purchased a 997.2 3.8 RS and it's going for up to $200k on the used market and the 4.0 is fetching over $350k.

I'm starting to think a lot of this feedback is coming from the porsche fan club which is why it seems to be so biased.

Did the car cost that much at sale? If it is an exclusive special edition, that would probably factor into the sell price going up. Regardless, if your car is actually worth that much now, that would prove my point. $200k for a used special edition 997 is ridiculous. And the only reason the used price is able to jump that high is because the car was overpriced to begin with.

Originally Posted by s4awd

My GT500 for $60k makes my $100k plus M5 feel like a turtle. The M5 will prolly be worth $40k in another 2-3 years where there are people scrambling to grab the last of the 5.8l shelbys. I will always be a fan but value is not even considered when I purchase an M car.

Yeah, the gt500 is a special edition and highly sought after by second hand muscle car buyers in America, so that exclusiveness factor will probably jack up the used car price, unless the new mustang is even better . Whereas the M5, wasn't really considered anything special, though $40k in 2-3 years seems a little low. What year is it?

You definitely misinterpreted my point. I wasn't arguing that BMW's resale value was better than that of other car makers, though on average it is actually pretty decent. I was arguing that the MSRP, the value at which you buy a new car , is very good when compared to the other high-end euro car brands.

[s4awd]

The m3 race cars are carbon monocoque chassis with a 6 speed xtrac tranny and a P66 motor that shares nothing with the production car. The only M3 that was homologated for racing was the first M3. The 997 GT3 is the homologated race car for the road. Same engine chassis, etc. only swap is the fuel cell and 6 speed replaced by a dog box tranny. Also, i think your logic is wrong. When a car is sold for much higher prices used, it was under priced from the dealer not over priced. My 997.2 RS was $136k. A car that appreciates? that's a value for the customer. The F10 is a 2013 residuals are 49% after 3 years. Ugh

The only car that BMW has that competes with Porsche's GT3 in desirability is the 1M. Used prices reflect it. I'm still kicking myself for not going for one when I had the chance

[Patronus86]

Originally Posted by s4awd

The m3 race cars are carbon monocoque chassis with a 6 speed xtrac tranny and a P66 motor that shares nothing with the production car. The only M3 that was homologated for racing was the first M3. The 997 GT3 is the homologated race car for the road. Same engine chassis, etc. only swap is the fuel cell and 6 speed replaced by a dog box tranny.

Ok, I am calling BS on this. You are right, there is a significant difference between the race version of the m3 and the retail version, though the engine has to retain the same displacement as the production 4.0 L V8, there are significant differences between some of the engine components, suspensions, drivetrain, body panels, ect...That being said there still a lot of components and parts that it shares with the retail version. Check out this Car and Driver article for the comparison: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...r-feature-test

But there is also a significant difference between the street legal gt3 rs and the gt3 cup car (which is not street legal) used in the professional racing. This article from bloomberg doesn't go into as much detail on specific parts, but there is easily a $100k difference between the 2 porsches.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...et-review.html

Read the section on 'Number Crunching.' Every time they drive these things, the techs and engineers are fiddling with the suspension. It costs $3,000 per hour to operate. If you think they simply take a 911 gt3 rs and simply swap the fuel cell and transmission and race them on the pro circuit, you are kidding yourself.

Originally Posted by s4awd

Also, i think your logic is wrong. When a car is sold for much higher prices used, it was under priced from the dealer not over priced. My 997.2 RS was $136k. A car that appreciates? that's a value for the customer. The F10 is a 2013 residuals are 49% after 3 years.

No it wasn't underpriced from the dealer. It sold at x amount, which I argue is overpriced simply because porsche likes to jack up their retail prices. Because it is a special, limited edition, it is rare, and on the used market, it sells for an even higher price (X+rarity cost=y). The only reason the used retail price got as high as it did was because this model was overpriced to begin with.

And for the 2nd time, that wasn't the type of value I was referring to in my original thread. I was arguing that porche's MSRP (brand new) was too high for the performance, quality, exotic feel,ect. that you were getting.

Originally Posted by s4awd

The only car that BMW has that competes with Porsche's GT3 in desirability is the 1M. Used prices reflect it. I'm still kicking myself for not going for one when I had the chance

Yes, the 1M is unique as hell, but that thing doesn't compete nearly as well with the gt3 in terms of performance. The M3 is much more comparable performance wise, let's leave exclusivity and model rarity out of the discussion.

[consolidated]

The 991 GT3 and RS are diverging from the pure racing varieties (Cup, RSR, America) even more this generation. At least until or if, Porsche homologates the DFI 9A1 motor and finally replaces the GT1 block Mezger.

I will say, having driven both 997 GT3RS and 997 GT3 Cup on the track, they look alike but are very, very different driving experiences...really not even close if I'm being honest.

[s4awd]

Originally Posted by Patronus86

Ok, I am calling BS on this. You are right, there is a significant difference between the race version of the m3 and the retail version, though the engine has to retain the same displacement as the production 4.0 L V8, there are significant differences between some of the engine components, suspensions, drivetrain, body panels, ect...That being said there still a lot of components and parts that it shares with the retail version. Check out this Car and Driver article for the comparison: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...r-feature-test

But there is also a significant difference between the street legal gt3 rs and the gt3 cup car (which is not street legal) used in the professional racing. This article from bloomberg doesn't go into as much detail on specific parts, but there is easily a $100k difference between the 2 porsches.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...et-review.html

Read the section on 'Number Crunching.' Every time they drive these things, the techs and engineers are fiddling with the suspension. It costs $3,000 per hour to operate. If you think they simply take a 911 gt3 rs and simply swap the fuel cell and transmission and race them on the pro circuit, you are kidding yourself.

No it wasn't underpriced from the dealer. It sold at x amount, which I argue is overpriced simply because porsche likes to jack up their retail prices. Because it is a special, limited edition, it is rare, and on the used market, it sells for an even higher price (X+rarity cost=y). The only reason the used retail price got as high as it did was because this model was overpriced to begin with.

And for the 2nd time, that wasn't the type of value I was referring to in my original thread. I was arguing that porche's MSRP (brand new) was too high for the performance, quality, exotic feel,ect. that you were getting.

Yes, the 1M is unique as hell, but that thing doesn't compete nearly as well with the gt3 in terms of performance. The M3 is much more comparable performance wise, let's leave exclusivity and model rarity out of the discussion.

I agree with the cost of running the car being high but it is still the same car. There is no way you can convert the customer M3 to a DTM machine and compete no matter how much you spend. The GT3 like the Evo and STi are homologated race cars detuned for the street which at a price you can race them where the M3 is not. Value is value. The M1 is not in the same league as a GT3 but in terms of value you're getting the same with those two cars. We can argue till hell freezes over but in the end I think we can agree, M cars such as the M5 as you mentioned are no longer special and the brand is being diluted for profit

[Sy546]

Originally Posted by s4awd

I purchased a 997.2 3.8 RS and it's going for up to $200k on the used market and the 4.0 is fetching over $350k. .

agreed with the rest of your post except this. a 997.2 3.8 RS is worth closer to 140k-160k. Not $200k+. People can ask w.e price they want, but what it is worth is totally different.

[Patronus86]

Originally Posted by s4awd

I agree with the cost of running the car being high but it is still the same car.

The gt3 rs and the gt3 cup car are not the same....which is why the cup car costs over $100K more than the street version. It's not simply operating costs. They may resemble each other, but I guarantee everything from the suspension and engine tuning to the tires, engine components, brake and body panels are designed for specifically for the circuit.

Originally Posted by s4awd

There is no way you can convert the customer M3 to a DTM machine and compete no matter how much you spend. The GT3 like the Evo and STi are homologated race cars detuned for the street which at a price you can race them where the M3 is not.

The GT3 is not simply a "detuned" version of the cup car. That's way too much of an understatement. And the M3 is in fact converted into a racing machine...a lot of parts get swapped out for sure, but the car is fundamentally based on the design/package/and engine type of the street legal M3. But just like the GT3 Cup car, the M3 race version is a still a different beast from the retail version.

Originally Posted by s4awd

Value is value. The M1 is not in the same league as a GT3 but in terms of value you're getting the same with those two cars. We can argue till hell freezes over but in the end I think we can agree, M cars such as the M5 as you mentioned are no longer special and the brand is being diluted for profit

I'll stop bringing up the value issue because you aren't seeing my point. The M5 is a decent enough car, but not anything special, and I never said it was. My original post referred to the M3 and M6. I do think they are special cars, especially for their cost.

The M brand being diluted...well they still race versions of the M3 on the pro circuit. And we'll have to give the M4 a chance to breath before we pass judgement on its "racing legs."

I think you need to take your porsche hat off from time to time...and be honest with yourself and the rest of this forum when discussing that brand.

[bimmerj]

Originally Posted by consolidated

The 991 GT3 and RS are diverging from the pure racing varieties (Cup, RSR, America) even more this generation. At least until or if, Porsche homologates the DFI 9A1 motor and finally replaces the GT1 block Mezger.

I will say, having driven both 997 GT3RS and 997 GT3 Cup on the track, they look alike but are very, very different driving experiences...really not even close if I'm being honest.

I agree. Having the S and S+ on a caymanS was like having two separate cars. I am curious to hear the difference in driving in your case.

[s4awd]

Originally Posted by Patronus86

The gt3 rs and the gt3 cup car are not the same....which is why the cup car costs over $100K more than the street version. It's not simply operating costs. They may resemble each other, but I guarantee everything from the suspension and engine tuning to the tires, engine components, brake and body panels are designed for specifically for the circuit.

The GT3 is not simply a "detuned" version of the cup car. That's way too much of an understatement. And the M3 is in fact converted into a racing machine...a lot of parts get swapped out for sure, but the car is fundamentally based on the design/package/and engine type of the street legal M3. But just like the GT3 Cup car, the M3 race version is a still a different beast from the retail version.

I'll stop bringing up the value issue because you aren't seeing my point. The M5 is a decent enough car, but not anything special, and I never said it was. My original post referred to the M3 and M6. I do think they are special cars, especially for their cost.

The M brand being diluted...well they still race versions of the M3 on the pro circuit. And we'll have to give the M4 a chance to breath before we pass judgement on its "racing legs."

I think you need to take your porsche hat off from time to time...and be honest with yourself and the rest of this forum when discussing that brand.

I'm not wearing a Porsche hat. Just being a consumer. The 997 GT3 has the same motor (GT1) and chassis as the cup car. That is a fact. Of course they will drive differently but facts are facts. The DNA is there good and bad. That was the case with the first M3 and the Evo and STi. If I was wearing a Porsche hat, I wouldn't buy any BMW M cars. They have their pros. But value is not one of them to me. Most here have agreed to that which is the whole point of the thread

[ridin135]

Just to point out the gt500 is not a special edition or limited edition it's the M3 for the ford mustang line. The only limited edition this generation was the boss 302 Laguna seca.

[Robin_NL]

I only know a few contemporary BMWs with some minor devaluation or even prices going up : E30 M3 Cecotto/Evo series, Z8, E46 M3 CSL, 1M.

And off course the M3 GTS(my dealer has one 199k euros...) and the CRT...

That's about it afaik.

Cheers
Robin

[Patronus86]

Originally Posted by s4awd

I'm not wearing a Porsche hat.

Says the person who owns a 997 gt3 rs, at least if your garage list is accurate.

You definitely seem to put porsche on a pedestal, hence why you exaggerated your car's resale value and tried to claim a simple fuel cell swap and transmission upgrade was the only difference between your beloved 997 gt3 rs and the pro cup version...

Originally Posted by s4awd

The 997 GT3 has the same motor (GT1) and chassis as the cup car. That is a fact. Of course they will drive differently but facts are facts. The DNA is there good and bad. That was the case with the first M3 and the Evo and STi. If I was wearing a Porsche hat, I wouldn't buy any BMW M cars. They have their pros. But value is not one of them to me. Most here have agreed to that which is the whole point of the thread

The retail M3 has just as much "racing DNA" from its pro circuit cousin as the 997 gt3 rs has from its cup car cousin. That's why people track the M3. And though the cup car may have a similar motor and chassis to that
of the 997 gt3 rs, there is still a $100K price difference (components, tuning, setup, ect.) between the two cars, which you have refused to acknowledge.

Actually quite a few on this thread have agreed that the M3 is one of the best do-it-all cars (tracking, daily driver) you can buy for that price tag.

Originally Posted by ridin135

Just to point out the gt500 is not a special edition or limited edition it's the M3 for the ford mustang line. The only limited edition this generation was the boss 302 Laguna seca.

You're right...I misspoke. However, I predict in the long run the gt500 and its chevy and dodge counterparts will hold their value if not increase in value due to their engine types and performance-oriented setup's. A lot like how some of the older generation gt350's and chevy camaro's are easily going for $100k+ at car auctions.