09-17-2021, 10:02 AM | #1 |
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Is the F8X Raw?
How does this compare with it's previous M brothers?
I have only driven the E92 and i found that car to be a bit more muted than the F82 i have. Yes the V8 sounds good, but on the car i was driving it didn't sound that loud, the car seemed well insulated, it wasn't scary to drive, i felt you could extract the performance far easier on it. My F82 is mostly stock with MPE and downpipes, Potenza tires and that's it but it's very loud, very racey, in my case it doesn't feel that well insulated, it isn't that comfortable, it drones, it tires me out on long drives. It is also flat out scary to drive hard as a combination of the limited insulation, loudness, stiff suspension and vibrations and sense of speed gives it that raw factor. Never drove the previous Gens nor the G8x but i have sat in many other non bmw cars including a carerra 4S and the even the porsche felt quite a lot more refined, easy to drive fast, and not much theatrics. What is everyones opinion? |
09-17-2021, 10:12 AM | #2 |
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Steering feel has been a major hit on this model and continues to be an issue in the new G8X. If you can't sense the cars limits through the steering wheel, it does make it a little more difficult to handle. Found this out first hand recently.
My E92 gave way more feedback when approaching limits which told the brain to hold off. While I'm sure it's the electric steering, I do get feedback on my Audi B8.5 which also has electric steering...leaving me to believe the engineers at BMW don't get it.
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09-17-2021, 10:22 AM | #3 |
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Raw left after the E46 M in my opinion. Not that it's a bad thing but all other M's thereafter are more luxury and plush. That said I still love my E92 and F80.
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09-17-2021, 10:29 AM | #4 |
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Depends how you define raw, but I would consider it quite raw relatively speaking. It's definitely more stable and more refined in certain ways compared to say an E46, but also gives you a lot more feedback through the chassis than any prior generation (at least that I've driven). I personally view F8X as a platform with an very high ceiling that isn't really touched in stock form - it does not take much to push it over the edge into race car territory. My boss had a 992 C4S (traded in for a 992 Turbo), and that thing was fuck-me fast but it was so comfortable, effortless, and insulated that when ever he's in my car, the first thing he says without fail is "this is like a racecar" and has mentioned many times that the acceleration in mine combined with the uncorked exhaust I have makes it feel much more visceral than the C4S - the sensation of speed is greater even though it is objectively slower. The power delivery can also be quite brutal, which only adds to the perceived "rawness".
On E9X specifically, it is definitely softer and if I remember correctly, it was pretty bleh in stock form aside from the engine (been a while since I drove a stock E9X and hence why I never absolutely loved it until I drove my buddy's at Sonoma). IMO stock F8X absolutely improved on stock E9X in just about everyway asides from engine and related feel/theatrics/etc. I know people love the talking point of steering, but honestly, E9X isn't the car to die on the hydraulic hill with - its steering really isn't that great, and if you told me it was an EPS rack I'd probably believe you. Having said that, my buddy has a track focused E90 that was on Bilstein Club Sports, 275 square, 6pot fronts, w/ an aftermarket xpipe and muffler combo, and that was a freaking blast - as raw feeling as you like, and felt as capable as F8X. If you match the specialness of S65 with a little bit of suspension magic and uncork the exhaust a bit - I mean that thing makes you feel like you're in a racecar. Experiencing a properly setup E9X... it is now a must own for me, so I've been opportunistically looking and will continue to do so. But as it relates to your point, even E9X can be raw with the right TLC.
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09-17-2021, 10:39 AM | #5 | |
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Do you think a damper change will make the F8X feel like that E90 racecar you talked about? Maybe it could be certain bushings?
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09-17-2021, 10:44 AM | #6 | ||
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My biggest thing is that dead centre feel is annoying. I coded the car to GTS steering and it's very good now but the issue is this car doesnt have GTS suspension or alignment so it probably doesn't take advantage of it like it should. As posters above has said i feel there isn't magic catch all for feel and directness, each car has to be setup for it's chassis, suspension, tyres, etc. I think BMW just doesn't know how to do it well. |
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09-17-2021, 10:46 AM | #7 | |
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I should clarify that when I say "racecar" I do not mean an actual racecar like the M4 GT4. I mean more of a track day special that is exceedingly capable and rewarding to your senses. An actual race car is a completely different animal... we're talking about dogs here not wolves lol
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09-17-2021, 10:52 AM | #8 | |
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09-17-2021, 11:48 AM | #11 |
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I find my F80 comp sufficiently refined in comfort mode and raw in sport plus. Best of both worlds. It's not as connected as my e46 M3 but the considerable HP increase is worth the trade-off in my opinion.
I agree the F80 acoustics/ insulation is lacking, when my kids shut the passenger door sounds like the glass is shattering. I assume the is a weight savings measure. |
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09-17-2021, 12:09 PM | #12 |
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It’s very raw for a modern car. By raw I mean it trades refinement for feeling of sportiness and connectedness (harsher, louder, more of different types of feedback, etc). It all adds personality.
Yes the steering has no feedback. And that takes a big part away from the driving experience. BUT it’s better in many other ways vs predecessors and competition. - handling feel is actually better. While the steering wheel is mute, The rear communicates better than any car I have driven. It’s extremely stiff and direct. Also chassis overall communicates a lot. - it’s simply not THAT refined compared to today’s cars. I look forward to driving it as it makes it feel like an event. Suspension isn’t comfortable. - I have an MPE Exhaust with Competition pack and I think it adds to the experience. It’s loud and angry. - Car feels lightweight, nimble and great to control at speed and on the track (most Ms do though). Lots of confidence. - Engine response is great. It does the usual raw car stuff. You’ll need to learn how to apply the throttle not to get it to buck in sport plus etc. - It will ask a lot of you as a driver. It’s a good balance between too easy to drive and trying to kill you. It will only try to murder you a little. It’s a great and direct driving car and will make you a better driver. I don’t fully get if you are trying to compare it to G80 or the E90,E46 gen cars. I think they all have unique characteristics that give them different personality. E90 it was the engine note (but I agree it felt more refined for its day), E46 ZCP it was the steering feel (for me), G80 I haven’t owned or driven yet. They all have something amazing and something that sucks. No perfect car. Audi is almost always more refined and understeery. I hated my S4 - it just didn’t drive like a special car. Last edited by Keca10; 09-17-2021 at 12:16 PM.. |
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09-17-2021, 12:46 PM | #14 | |
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09-17-2021, 01:01 PM | #15 | ||
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09-17-2021, 01:05 PM | #16 |
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I've owned an E36 M3, own a E46 M3 SMG, owned a 15' M4 6MT, own a F82 M4 ZCP 6MT, drove the G80 M3 at the full day ///M school at Sonoma in May. Never drove a E30 M3. Borrowed a friend's E90 M3 6MT for a week. I'll discuss them in the order I had them because I think how/when they're experienced probably had an impact on how raw each felt:
1. E46 M3 - always felt refined to me. Light and predictable steering. It does open up after 4500rpm and it had a raspy/tinny sound with the stock exhaust that gave a rush of excitement. Aftermarket exhausts gave it more bass and it think made it seem more raw. The car always did and still does feel planted (so much so that it gives the impression of being a little heavy). 2. 2015 M4 6MT - this car was f**king raw! Honestly, the 2015 models of the F8X might as well be considered it's own line compared to the rest of the model lines (15', 16-20 Base, ZCP, CS, GTS). The low and midrange torque delivery was ridiculous. It made the car almost unfriendly and menacing. The piped in sound was more V8 sounding than the more I6 sounding later models. The steering was unnecessarily heavy in Sport+ and Sport+ for the engine made the car unsuitable for public roads. Plus there was the slow speed jerking that would happen if you didn't commit to the throttle - the car demanded that you gave it the beans as that was the only thing that avoided the shuddering. This is the only ///M car I've driven where I thought the engine was more than the chassis could handle. 3. E36 M3 - this was the rawest ///M car I've experienced. Sound dampening was at a minimum so you could always hear what was going on with the motor, the pebbles in the wheel arches, the diff locking up, and the tires communicating how much grip was left. This was also the lightest of the cars by hundreds of pounds which was definitely obvious by the way it turned. The E36 M3 is the closest car in feel to a Miata. This car's motor is my favorite sounding one of the generations. In fact, it's why I never minded the F8X sound and could appreciate it because they sound similar - Google "E36 M3 Turbo" if you have any doubts. 4. M4 ZCP 6MT - this car doesn't feel raw to me. It feels how I'd imagine a Mobile Suit Gundam would lol. Purposeful. Powerful. Accurate. When I got this car I didn't know what to expect after my years of experience with the 15' M4. It turned out to be a more civilized version and really seemed like a different car. It's more planted, predictable, and linear power-wise. Other than the looks of the two cars, I swear to you that they don't even seem like they're related with respect to driving dynamics. 5. G80 M3 Competition - this is the fastest out the box ///M car I've driven but it's also the most insulated one too. I was fortunate to drive this car on track. It sounds pretty good but the burbles are over the top. The car was fast based on the speed on the dash but it didn't feel fast (compared to a E36 which isn't fast but feels fast). This car didn't feel raw to me. 6. E90 M3 6MT - this is the final ///M car that I drove. I had it for just over a week. I like how this car looks. It's the best looking one in my opinion. But driving-wise it was a let down. To me it just felt like a normal car. The torque down low is nonexistent and even above 3500rpm the car still felt somewhat slow. I wish I had driven this car earlier in my ///M experiences because then I might've had a positive impression. But to sum it up, the car felt slow, heavy, and it was uninspiring. It sounds good with an aftermarket exhaust though… but this car isn't raw. With that being said, I do hope to purchase sedan with DCT as a family hauler in the future, if prices improve. TLDR: Rawness scale: E36 M3 > 15' M4 > E46 M3 > M4 ZCP > G80 M3 Comp > E90 M3
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09-17-2021, 01:10 PM | #17 | |
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To me i had similiar seat time to you with the E92 and i felt the same way, it felt completely different from my '16 F82. More blah, other than engine note, i feel that engine didn't match the car at all. I am suprised you felt such a difference from 15 to later models, were they lighter? Less insulated? I know the torque curve is insane but was that the only thing that made them different to drive and added rawness? I always felt the F82 i have is incredibly raw not just for modern standards but standards in general. |
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09-17-2021, 01:24 PM | #18 | ||
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2015 = Connor McGregor in Octagon 2016+ = Connor McGregor in a Tuxedo Both are badass but one is just a bit more refined. And both can threaten to murder you just enough to be fun.
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09-17-2021, 02:06 PM | #19 |
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I've had E46, E90, and now an F82 (albeit a CS which has different tuning and noticably better steering feedback compared to non-CS).
My take on the steering feel throughout the generations: I've driven an E36 M3, and that to me was the hallmark of BMW M steering. The E46 M3 is dull in steering feel except for the ZCP/CSL which has a quicker ratio rack. The standard rack's ratio made it feel "dumb," although the feedback was great. The E46 wasnt' known to be "frisky" because of this, especially compared to the standard non-M models where they had a faster steering rack. The E90's steering is also full of feedback, but very very very very very very light on/off center. Aftermarket ECU files had options to tune the servo unit to add weight, which made it more enjoyable. The F82cs rack is pretty decent for an e-steering. Most BMW e-steering of this era has a disconnected feel, but the F82cs manages to feel like it's connected to the front wheels. Feedback could be better, but weight is spot on in normal settings. The issue I have with the F82cs rack is that you can only tell whats going on with the front wheels, and not the back wheels like you could in past generations (if that makes sense?)
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09-19-2021, 08:12 PM | #20 |
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Oh baby I like it RAW!!
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