Official Thread: Report Here if you Spun your Crank Timing Gear Hub.

[jwzimm]

Originally Posted by pikkagtr

Well in this thread designed to document failures , it turned into a debate, an engineering lesson but I has yet to bear fruit of anyone coming on and saying they did have this failure .
So far it's still zero count afaik

Agreed. Apologies for the thread-jack.

[JamesGames]

For the members asking if it has happened to DCT cars, TPG has claimed it has multiple times..

[M4 CSL]

Originally Posted by jwzimm

Speaking as an engineer here I would add the following:


Just be careful that these effort are actually needed and that they do not simply shunt the load over to another, more costly, piece in the system.

What is more costly than a Blown engine? (That this part could cause)

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by M4 CSL

What is more costly than a Blown engine? (That this part could cause)

Do we know that this has been the result of these alleged failures?

Yes, some/many engines will have a collision between valves and pistons if cam timing is thrown. The S55 might be one of those engines (and there might even be threads here confirming this allready?).

EDIT:

Found this on the N54 site:

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32912


This is what Pure Turbos wrote:

When it happens, most commonly the car will shut down and not restart with no engine damage. We have also noticed a rough idle is a red flag sign of the keyless crank gear starting to slip. It makes sense. If the cam timing is off, rough idle.

So, this could be a design flaw (since there are claims this happens on both stock and modded engines), or it could be by design and engineered in as the "weak link" to avoid further more expensive damage.

[saxon]

Question... if this part were to fail could it potentially make the ecu think the engine was over revved which would cause the damage

[kitesurfer]

Guys - I know many folks are just as anxious as myself to determine if this is a "Real" issue or Not and unfortunately this will only take time. Please let try to keep this thread as short/factual as possible until we either get some confirmed reports from members....I don't mean to sound like a dick but lets not turn this thread 50 page debate thread. If anyone finds factual data, confirmed reports in other forums or other threads please direct the OP of that thread to report here or link the thread here.

So to Recap as of Today ZERO Reports of this issue from Forum members, all accounts thus far appear to be from Over Rev Situations

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by jwzimm

Speaking as an engineer here I would add the following:

In many system designs, intentional weaknesses are included. T

Guys, I doubt this is the case. An intentional failure is something like bending a control arm rather than destroying the subframe or unibody, or shearing the steering column rather than impaling the driver.

If the intentional failure still causes catastrphoic engine damage, then what is being prevented? Slightly worse catastrophic engine damage?

[6speeds]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Do we know that this has been the result of these alleged failures?

Yes, some/many engines will have a collision between valves and pistons if cam timing is thrown. The S55 might be one of those engines (and there might even be threads here confirming this allready?).

EDIT:

Found this on the N54 site:

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32912


This is what Pure Turbos wrote:



So, this could be a design flaw (since there are claims this happens on both stock and modded engines), or it could be by design and engineered in as the "weak link" to avoid further more expensive damage.

Wow exact same thing happend to me always wonderd what it was ...on my way to the track high speed runs i get a drive train malfunction warning and rough idle shut it down few minutes and it started back to normal, later that night at the track i was pretty hard on the car always high rpm down shifts "manual car " car suddenly started sputering for a few minutes then just died..got towd back to the pits.. We tried everything car just wont start it cranks and sounds normal but would not start, no check engine nothing just a drivetrain malfunction on screen,towd it to local dealer few days later i pick it up he said it just needed computer update,,

[M4 CSL]

Originally Posted by M4 CSL

What is more costly than a Blown engine? (That this part could cause)

Originally Posted by Racer20

Guys, I doubt this is the case. An intentional failure is something like bending a control arm rather than destroying the subframe or unibody, or shearing the steering column rather than impaling the driver.

If the intentional failure still causes catastrphoic engine damage, then what is being prevented? Slightly worse catastrophic engine damage?

That was my point.....What is worse than engine failure. I'm OK spending a little on preventative measures. Like the bottom end bearing on the E92 ///M3.

A stitch in time. I'm more concerned about what could be blamed on this mod if I do it.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by M4 CSL

That was my point.....What is worse than engine failure. I'm OK spending a little on preventative measures. Like the bottom end bearing on the E92 ///M3.

A stitch in time. I'm more concerned about what could be blamed on this mod if I do it.

According to Pure Turbo this is the most common problem when this situation occurs:

When it happens, most commonly the car will shut down and not restart with no engine damage. We have also noticed a rough idle is a red flag sign of the keyless crank gear starting to slip. It makes sense. If the cam timing is off, rough idle.

So, most commonly no engine damage and the car needs to be towed and problem fixed.

The solution made by TPG might be a very solid upgrade and not cause any other secondary issues. Previously it was very common to use a woodruff key, so it's not like TPG have come up with an unproven or questionable solution. More than likely the lack of woodruff key has to do with ease of assembly and cost issues and not an engineering decision. But, we don't really know of course...

[hotrod2448]

I just hope this doesn't go the way of the transfer case paranoia that Evo owners had for a long time. A few people who upgraded their clutch, removed their clutch delay valve and were launching the car frequently broke their TCs and everyone lost their minds. People who didn't abuse their cars really had nothing to worry about but, the fear of "what if" was always in the back of your mind spoiling the driving experience.

[TPG Tuning]

Had a customer M4 towed in this week. Reports of misfiring, then no throttle response, eventually shut the car off, attempted to start and would not start. Check timing, timing is very far off, leak down test, cylinder 4-5-6 all have 100% leak down. Begin removing crank gear, and then we find this ...

Motor needs pulled, Valves need replaced and head repaired. Crankshaft is now junk and needs replaced.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by TPG Tuning

Had a customer M4 towed in this week. Reports of misfiring, then no throttle response, eventually shut the car off, attempted to start and would not start. Check timing, timing is very far off, leak down test, cylinder 4-5-6 all have 100% leak down. Begin removing crank gear, and then we find this ...

Motor needs pulled, Valves need replaced and head repaired. Crankshaft is now junk and needs replaced.

Can you share some details about the customers car? Modded? What was the customer doing with the car when the crank hub/timing gear slipped?

Why didn't the customer take the car to the dealership?

Thank you for sharing.

[TPG Tuning]

Car has stock turbo's , Downpipes, and JB4 Map 2. Doing a WOT 3rd gear pull on the highway. The car was coming to us in a few weeks anyway for clutches, turbos etc. Now we are pulling the motor fixing it all and installing all new parts in the process.

This is a DCT car by the way.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by TPG Tuning

Car has stock turbo's , Downpipes, and JB4 Map 2. Doing a WOT 3rd gear pull on the highway. The car was coming to us in a few weeks anyway for clutches, turbos etc. Now we are pulling the motor fixing it all and installing all new parts in the process.

This is a DCT car by the way.

Ouch. Not good.

Honestly, BMW needs to be fixing this car. They need to issue a TSB. The more engines they replace, the better the chance of a TSB.

I just got a call from a good friend (like 5 mins ago) and it looks like he just spun his crank hub/timing gear. His brand-new F80 is sitting on the side of the road as I type this, waiting on a tow truck. His description matches this to a tee. How ironic.

[TPG Tuning]

Very sorry to hear that. I am sure BMW will take care of replacing the engine or fixing the issue for him. The reasoning behind the timing gear we have is simply due to having the dealer fix it and having the same issue happen time and time again. Taking it to the dealer will get you free labor and parts, but will eventually leave you stranded again.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by TPG Tuning

Very sorry to hear that. I am sure BMW will take care of replacing the engine or fixing the issue for him. The reasoning behind the timing gear we have is simply due to having the dealer fix it and having the same issue happen time and time again. Taking it to the dealer will get you free labor and parts, but will eventually leave you stranded again.

With the current design, I agree. But BMW needs to redesign the keyless crank hub, badly. Making them fix or replace the engine helps bring this issue to light. If they replace enough of them, they will have to do something.

At least they can replace the engine and put everything back in order, and then the customer can swap out the stock crank hub with your keyed crank hub.

[The Flying Scotsman]

Originally Posted by TPG Tuning

Car has stock turbo's , Downpipes, and JB4 Map 2. Doing a WOT 3rd gear pull on the highway. The car was coming to us in a few weeks anyway for clutches, turbos etc. Now we are pulling the motor fixing it all and installing all new parts in the process.

This is a DCT car by the way.

At what rpm was the car misfiring?

I have had my car misfire at 6k + rpms in 5th gear on the Dyno several times when running upwards of 25psi. When I continued to give the car wot through the misfire, the car could get a drivetrain malfunction (limp mode) and have a severe loss of power. I would have to turn the car off. However, every time the car would restart just fine.

I am pretty sure that the plugs are the issue here, but just want to make sure that these two similar happenings aren't related.

Wouldn't like to spin my crank hub with an ECU flash...

[TPG Tuning]

The misfire can be caused by many things . One being spark plug gap , other being knock , fuel or ignition timing retard, throttle closure. We now have the ability to flash these cars and the way the ecu works is unreal.

[The Flying Scotsman]

My car is getting an ECU flash as we speak!

[rr006rbc]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

Honestly, BMW needs to be fixing this car. They need to issue a TSB. The more engines they replace, the better the chance of a TSB.

.

Wait, what?

BMW should be fixing this car? Why do you think it should fall on BMW to foot the bill when the original horsepower and torque rating for the engine has been increased by around 60-70HP?

I would love to see a customer tow that car into the dealership demonstrating the failure with the tune and downpipes installed on it. Do please.

However, if the car is bone stock and hasn't been tampered with then of course BMW should warranty it. But it's not usually the case for people on these types of forums; catastrophic failures are mostly due to aftermarket modifications.

[sA x sKy]

Originally Posted by rr006rbc

Wait, what?

BMW should be fixing this car? Why do you think it should fall on BMW to foot the bill when the original horsepower and torque rating for the engine has been increased by around 60-70HP?

I would love to see a customer tow that car into the dealership demonstrating the failure with the tune and downpipes installed on it. Do please.

However, if the car is bone stock and hasn't been tampered with then of course BMW should warranty it. But it's not usually the case for people on these types of forums; catastrophic failures are mostly due to aftermarket modifications.

This HAS happened to a bone stock car. And why should it matter if BMW fixes the car modified or not? That isn't your problem.