The Turbos+EU5+LiftKit thread

[MJ6]

Originally Posted by StockM4

So what your saying is if i go upgraded turbos i can run full E85 with just EU5 injectors? And stock hpfp? Or would u recommend to atleast get the hpfp lift kit with the EU5 injectors.
Im stock motor if that makes a difference to your answer.

Technically you could, but you'd be running much higher fuel rail pressures to compensate. Sales@KRATOS did a good job covering down on almost that exact same question in the Spool HPFP thread, and I feel that it definitely swayed me towards upgrading the HPFP units as well.

Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS

Scenario 1: A turbo upgraded S55 running straight E85 looking to produce 750whp could easily do so on EU5 injectors without upgraded HPFP's, upgraded LPFP, or PI. However, just as you would need to target high fuel pressure on the HPFP side when getting close to the limit of the factory DI injector you will still need to do the same when reaching the flow limit of the EU5's. This is primary cause of injector failure as we previously discussed.

Scenario 2: The same vehicle and goals listed in scenario 1 with the addition of EU5's and HPFP upgrades will support the same power goals, but will do so without the risk of injector failure since upgraded HPFP's flow significantly more volume at a much stable and lower pressure.

[Sales@KRATOS]

Originally Posted by MJ6

Technically you could, but you'd be running much higher fuel rail pressures to compensate. Sales@KRATOS did a good job covering down on almost that exact same question in the Spool HPFP thread, and I feel that it definitely swayed me towards upgrading the HPFP units as well.

Correct, you could definitely run full E85 on EU5's without any HPFP upgrade or PI. However, it would be at the risk of possible injector failure due to such high HPFP targets with stock HPFP's. Our advice is to always install a HPFP or lift kit upgrade when running E85 with EU5's both on stock or built engines.

[MJ6]

Update:

So I'll be picking the car up today after work, but the mechanic did manage to locate and fix the boost leak; I'll need to ask him where it was located, but I'll run a few logs to make sure it's holding.

I also was able to get in touch with Avtandil over at ABPerformance, and he'll be working with me moving forward with the tune. He has a lot of experience in fine tuning EU5 injectors, so I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do. I also have a Precision Raceworks Stage 3 LPFP on its way just for extra insurance on the fueling side of things.

Future updates to come.

*edit: the boost leak was coming from the breather line on the J-pipe, apparently it wasn't sealing correctly so he fit a thicker o-ring to take up the slack. It's a VRSF j-pipe, but there's no real way to tell if it was due to install error or manufacture defect, either way I should be leak free now. Test logs to come (fingers crossed)

[TheMaster1971NL]

Originally Posted by MJ6

Update:

So I'll be picking the car up today after work, but the mechanic did manage to locate and fix the boost leak; I'll need to ask him where it was located, but I'll run a few logs to make sure it's holding.

I also was able to get in touch with Avtandil over at ABPerformance, and he'll be working with me moving forward with the tune. He has a lot of experience in fine tuning EU5 injectors, so I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do. I also have a Precision Raceworks Stage 3 LPFP on its way just for extra insurance on the fueling side of things.

Future updates to come.

*edit: the boost leak was coming from the breather line on the J-pipe, apparently it wasn't sealing correctly so he fit a thicker o-ring to take up the slack. It's a VRSF j-pipe, but there's no real way to tell if it was due to install error or manufacture defect, either way I should be leak free now. Test logs to come (fingers crossed)

[belittle]

Good call switching over to AB. He's got the EU5 injectors + upgrade high pressure pumps dialed. No reason to be running that high of pressure as stated already. Even a novice can tell something is up with that e85 log.

[TacoJova]

What upgraded HPFP you guys using/recommend? I'm currently dialing in my meth port injection but wanna do this also so I could use the meth to cool and clean my valves

[MJ6]

Originally Posted by TacoJova

What upgraded HPFP you guys using/recommend? I'm currently dialing in my meth port injection but wanna do this also so I could use the meth to cool and clean my valves

At this point in time I'm only aware of three HPFP upgrade options:

- Spool FX150
- Dorch Fuel Cam Lifter Upgrade
- Nostrum HPFP Kit

Of those three, I've only seen the Spool and Dorch kits used. belittle has had great results with the Spool setup, and I'm personally running the Dorch Upgrade and so far I haven't had any issues (E85 tune results pending).

Neither set up is really complete without the EU5 injectors though as they're the real bottle neck in this equation, the HPFP's are there to guarantee healthier fuel pressure targets to prevent the possibly of injector failure when running full E. One of the most important things if you do decide on going this route is to work with a tuner that has actual experience in tuning the components, which right now is either HCP or ABPerformance; the EU5's need to be scaled correctly by someone who knows what they're doing to really maximize their potential.

[TopJimmy]

Agreeing with MJ6. There's no need to upgrade HPFPs (stock HPFPs with Dorch kit in our case) unless you've upgraded to the bigger DI injectors.

[TacoJova]

Oh I'm getting injectors just wanted to see which way I wanted to do it. Thanks for the feedback

[papasmurf_m3]

Thinking of running EU5 or keep my stock Injectors with LPFP upgrade and PI.

The idea is to run low safe pressures like stock and have the PI handle the rest. So as to never go back to super high levels of fuel pressure and risk damaging clogging the injectors.

But, my question is. If I'm going to go the PI route. Then why bother with EU5 right? We wont be pounding the stock injectors enough to even make a difference.

Am I missing something?

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by papasmurf_m3

Thinking of running EU5 or keep my stock Injectors with LPFP upgrade and PI.

The idea is to run low safe pressures like stock and have the PI handle the rest. So as to never go back to super high levels of fuel pressure and risk damaging clogging the injectors.

But, my question is. If I'm going to go the PI route. Then why bother with EU5 right? We wont be pounding the stock injectors enough to even make a difference.

Am I missing something?

If you're doing PI and LPFP then you've already picked your fuel adder. You only need EU5+PI when doing 1KHP and up builds.

[Leveredup377]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

If you're doing PI and LPFP then you've already picked your fuel adder. You only need EU5+PI when doing 1KHP and up builds.

Curious of what numbers you'll hit on the dyno now?!

[MJ6]

Minor update:

The new clutch is just about fully broken in now, so I can finally start doing some road tuning.

And Avtandil from ABP is an absolute wizard with these EU5's. On my previous tune I had a constant stumble in 2nd gear that (despite the number of revisions) kept rearing it's ugly head, I flashed over to Avtandil's second revision this afternoon and it's nothing less than smooth as butter; I'd even go as far as to say it feels even better than it did stock, but it could also be I just got so use to the twitchy nature of the previous tune that it this one feels worlds apart.

Currently scheduled to road tune for a few weeks and finish on the dyno on September 28th (earliest the shop had available &#128533, and switching to E85 on October 19th. It'll be completed on the same dyno as well, so the delta should be easily measurable across sessions.

[MJ6]

Pulled the first WOT datalog on 93 octane this morning. It's also the first since my mechanic identified the boost leak, so I'm hoping that it was taken care of and fixed.

I'm waiting on ABP to get back to me with the results, but I wanted to post the log here as well to see if our guru's could give it a once over as I'm skeptical due to the WGDC being in the low 90's and the boost pressure deviation below 3500rpm. Being bigger turbo's I don't expect them to spool and reach boost targets as quickly as stock, but I'm still an amateur at reading and diagnosing based on logs alone.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6128...729b0ac793e435

[E92inSG]

your WGDC is lower cos of the conservative boost target, turbos barely working to hit the requested boost. Boost targets are typically always above actual boost until full spool, which at around 4200rpm is not bad.

what i see in those logs that I find surprising is the crazy ignition timing retard across all cylinders in all 3 pulls.

[MJ6]

Originally Posted by E92inSG

your WGDC is lower cos of the conservative boost target, turbos barely working to hit the requested boost. Boost targets are typically always above actual boost until full spool, which at around 4200rpm is not bad.

what i see in those logs that I find surprising is the crazy ignition timing retard across all cylinders in all 3 pulls.

I appreciate the feedback man, it makes me feel a bit better that everything seems to be working as it should (from a mechanical aspect at least) this go around.

This map is actually the first revision that we've performed all out WOT runs since I had the new clutch installed, so it will definitely need some fine tuning in regards to the ignition timing.

[Sales@KRATOS]

Originally Posted by MJ6

Pulled the first WOT datalog on 93 octane this morning. It's also the first since my mechanic identified the boost leak, so I'm hoping that it was taken care of and fixed.

I'm waiting on ABP to get back to me with the results, but I wanted to post the log here as well to see if our guru's could give it a once over as I'm skeptical due to the WGDC being in the low 90's and the boost pressure deviation below 3500rpm. Being bigger turbo's I don't expect them to spool and reach boost targets as quickly as stock, but I'm still an amateur at reading and diagnosing based on logs alone.

https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=6128...729b0ac793e435

Keep in mind that this is a base file from your tuner and not at all what you'd expect to see on a fully tuned file. Also, WGDC is not the only factor of boost control as there are many other components in the tuning process that control overall boost.

Based on your current log you are well below what we normally see in regards to boost by rpm with our KRAS55Bi's. The vast majority of our customer's logs show you're approximately 5-6psi short of what we usually see by 3500rpm and full boost doesn't hit target until 4800rpm based on Deviation, whereas this normally occurs before 4k rpm. You want to make sure you don't confuse the boost pressure (target) (psig) channel on your log that shows 21.8 as your tuner requested boost target. That number is a default value and not to be confused with what your tuner is actually requesting. Also, we can see that you have quite a bit of timing correction occurring which again we feel is related to the fact that this is just a base tune file.

For reference, here is a log of one of our customer's S55's with a stock boost tune by Halim@HCP. This log is not an overall apples to apples comparison as this car is running straight E85 with PI. However, we're posting it so you can get an idea as to how well the KRAS55Bi's produce boost and when they hit target based on Deviation.
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5eeb...0b431e3b5cf534

We would advise for you to let you tuner complete the tuning process and finalize the tune before reviewing or critiquing the logs. This way he has a chance to provide you with a finished product which will then help to determine if there are any underlying mechanical issues.

[MJ6]

Originally Posted by Sales@KRATOS

Keep in mind that this is a base file from your tuner and not at all what you'd expect to see on a fully tuned file. Also, WGDC is not the only factor of boost control as there are many other components in the tuning process that control overall boost.

Based on your current log you are well below what we normally see in regards to boost by rpm with our KRAS55Bi's. The vast majority of our customer's logs show you're approximately 5-6psi short of what we usually see by 3500rpm and full boost doesn't hit target until 4800rpm based on Deviation, whereas this normally occurs before 4k rpm. You want to make sure you don't confuse the boost pressure (target) (psig) channel on your log that shows 21.8 as your tuner requested boost target. That number is a default value and not to be confused with what your tuner is actually requesting. Also, we can see that you have quite a bit of timing correction occurring which again we feel is related to the fact that this is just a base tune file.

For reference, here is a log of one of our customer's S55's with a stock boost tune by Halim@HCP. This log is not an overall apples to apples comparison as this car is running straight E85 with PI. However, we're posting it so you can get an idea as to how well the KRAS55Bi's produce boost and when they hit target based on Deviation.
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5eeb...0b431e3b5cf534

We would advise for you to let you tuner complete the tuning process and finalize the tune before reviewing or critiquing the logs. This way he has a chance to provide you with a finished product which will then help to determine if there are any underlying mechanical issues.

Thanks again for the feedback!
I was primarily looking at the logs to try and determine if the boost leak my mechanic stated he fixed was still present (apparently he only used a smoke test), and wasn't intended as a critique towards ABP in any way; my apologies if it came across as such. Avtandil did get back to me and mention that it does look like I may still have a boost leak somewhere, so I'm working on assembling a boost leak tester that will produce a similar enough manifold pressure to really identify where the issue lies.

*ninja edit - I also had a CEL pop up twice during start-up (cleared and popped again): "104301 absolute pressure sensor, intake manifold, plausibility" which again leads me to think that there may be a leak that popped up during the logging run as it's the first time since I've had it back from the mechanic that it's seen full boost.

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by MJ6

Thanks again for the feedback!
I was primarily looking at the logs to try and determine if the boost leak my mechanic stated he fixed was still present (apparently he only used a smoke test), and wasn't intended as a critique towards ABP in any way; my apologies if it came across as such. Avtandil did get back to me and mention that it does look like I may still have a boost leak somewhere, so I'm working on assembling a boost leak tester that will produce a similar enough manifold pressure to really identify where the issue lies.

*ninja edit - I also had a CEL pop up twice during start-up (cleared and popped again): "104301 absolute pressure sensor, intake manifold, plausibility" which again leads me to think that there may be a leak that popped up during the logging run as it's the first time since I've had it back from the mechanic that it's seen full boost.

Try stock air boxes to avoid that code. Worked for me.

[MJ6]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

Try stock air boxes to avoid that code. Worked for me.

If only I could. I've been on stock boxes and BMC filters for about a year, and this is the first time this particular code has popped up.

The good news is that the boost leak tester should be completed today, so I'll be one step closer to identifying the issue.

[TopJimmy]

Gotcha. My only other input is to check that all the o-rings and inside fittings are well greased. The small plastic air tube fittings are common leak spots when the grease dries out.

[MJ6]

If there was ever a piece of advice I could impart on someone that wants to have a shop work on their vehicle, it would be this: Trust, but verify.

I performed a visual inspection of all the clamps and hoses that could potentially cause an air leak as I wait for the rest of the leak test equipment to arrive, and discovered quite a few rather disconcerting things.

For starters, the charge pipe worm clamps were barely torqued to hand tight and the j-pipe clamps were the same. What really surprised me though was not only that the drivers side turbo inlet wasn't flush to the turbo or clamped down tight, it was that the passenger side turbo inlet was missing a clamp altogether.

My turbo installation was performed at reputable shop here in Virginia Beach, and I had assumed that they had QC'd their work. Apparently I assumed wrong

I have new t-clamps on the way and intend on refreshing all o-rings after performing a proper leak test this week, but it blows my mind that a shop specializing in BMW performance could be so sloppy.

Trust, but verify.