PI injection?? Or EU5 route? Help!

[victorboost]

I am planning on taking the PS2+ turbo route for my f80 that i daily. I have all supporting mods aside from fueling and the turbos. I am here seeking fueling advice

I accidentally broke a piece of my LPFP today so I am going to replace it with an upgraded LPFP tomorrow. I want to run a flex fuel tune on upgraded turbos using my bm3 flex fuel sensor. Would it save me the headache of PI to go EU5 + lift kit for fueling? Or would PI be the smarter route since I already will have upgraded LPFP

Let me know thanks for the help!

[Dabeamerking]

Port Injection is needed at 900+. EU5, Lift kit and upgraded lpfp and your good

[Commanderwiggin]

Folks at Bend Calibration have been doing this combo for a long time with EU5's, Lift Kit and PR Brushless LPFP. I'm going that route as well with Mosselman turbos.

[papasmurf_m3]

Port injection working just dandy for me. Smooth as silk.

[TopJimmy]

EU5 injectors
PRW Stage3 Brushless LPFP
Dorch lift kit -or- Stage HPFPs
Custom tune

Mosselman turbos are currently hot stuff!

[victorboost]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

EU5 injectors
PRW Stage3 Brushless LPFP
Dorch lift kit -or- Stage HPFPs
Custom tune

Mosselman turbos are currently hot stuff!

Would you recommend Mosselman turbos over Pure turbos for 7XX whp ??

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by victorboost

Would you recommend Mosselman turbos over Pure turbos for 7XX whp ??

Definitely. They spool early and pull strong.

[heitzke]

For that 7XX range they [Mosselman] seem about perfect. I previously ran some Pure 2+ and really enjoyed them but did run into some issues with them. Pure has been very kind and good to work with and wouldn't ever talk bad about them, but the turbos were very disappointing for me personally.

My front turbo is with them currently and i'm waiting to hear back if they'll warranty the item or if I just go ahead and pay for a rebuild on the unit.

My setup now is the same as what Commanderwiggin is going to use. astris here with this same setup broke the 700whp mark and is turning some very quick 60-130's.

[astris]

My Mosselman, EU5, Dorch lift kit, PR stage 3 brushless, Bend tuning/flex kit has been flawless so far. 700whp and have run a 5.64 60-130 on 285/30/20. New wheels/wider tires coming soon!

Was chatting with Bend this week and the setup is capable of more with the only rate limiting factor (besides rods) being the be EU5s. I may mess around with Nostrum Stage 3 injectors if they ever come out, but I’m already close to rod bending territory as it is.

With so many upgraded parts I’m amazed at how well this car runs. Drives like stock with twice the power.

[papasmurf_m3]

Originally Posted by astris

My Mosselman, EU5, Dorch lift kit, PR stage 3 brushless, Bend tuning/flex kit has been flawless so far. 700whp and have run a 5.64 60-130 on 285/30/20. New wheels/wider tires coming soon!

Was chatting with Bend this week and the setup is capable of more with the only rate limiting factor (besides rods) being the be EU5s. I may mess around with Nostrum Stage 3 injectors if they ever come out, but I’m already close to rod bending territory as it is.

With so many upgraded parts I’m amazed at how well this car runs. Drives like stock with twice the power.

Does your turbos make peak torque at a higher rpm than stock?

[victorboost]

Originally Posted by astris

My Mosselman, EU5, Dorch lift kit, PR stage 3 brushless, Bend tuning/flex kit has been flawless so far. 700whp and have run a 5.64 60-130 on 285/30/20. New wheels/wider tires coming soon!

Was chatting with Bend this week and the setup is capable of more with the only rate limiting factor (besides rods) being the be EU5s. I may mess around with Nostrum Stage 3 injectors if they ever come out, but I’m already close to rod bending territory as it is.

With so many upgraded parts I’m amazed at how well this car runs. Drives like stock with twice the power.

Out of curiosity, at what point do EU5s get maxed out? Can you run 750whp on full E with Eu5 + lift kit?

[astris]

Originally Posted by papasmurf_m3

Does your turbos make peak torque at a higher rpm than stock?

Not sure as I’ve never paid too close attention to stock turbo graphs. Here’s my dyno though.

[astris]

Originally Posted by victorboost

Out of curiosity, at what point do EU5s get maxed out? Can you run 750whp on full E with Eu5 + lift kit?

With this exact setup you’d probably run out of headroom before 750.

[-Eidos]

Originally Posted by victorboost

Out of curiosity, at what point do EU5s get maxed out? Can you run 750whp on full E with Eu5 + lift kit?

If you're 100% gunning for 700+whp and want injectors that will grow with your build then Nostrum or Precision Stage 2 injectors are better suited for this. The extra headroom will be nice and they come with lifetime warranty. The EU5s will already have started sweating at 675whp.

[chrison600]

My intention is not to "hijack" this thread, but reading it over and looking more into injection system upgrades, it seems that port injection might be the better option regardless of your power goals. I'm having a difficult time understanding why/when you would go the route of the lift kit+injectors, etc. It seems you can spend about the same $ and get port injection that will support all ranges of power. Does the decision hinge on whether you want to add a tuner and port controller? Is there something I'm missing in the calculation?

[TopJimmy]

Originally Posted by chrison600

My intention is not to "hijack" this thread, but reading it over and looking more into injection system upgrades, it seems that port injection might be the better option regardless of your power goals. I'm having a difficult time understanding why/when you would go the route of the lift kit+injectors, etc. It seems you can spend about the same $ and get port injection that will support all ranges of power. Does the decision hinge on whether you want to add a tuner and port controller? Is there something I'm missing in the calculation?

It's because when using PI it's uncommon for the DME to be aware of it, therefore a PI fault won't trigger the DME into limp mode. This is why it's common for blown engines to be fueled by PI or Meth add-ons. When using only bigger DI injectors and a tune the DME maintains full control. Adding the LPFP and Dorch Lift Kit helps supply additional fuel volume to hit high HP on E85 when using big injectors.

[heitzke]

Totally valid question on the PI. There are numerous ways to run it, from using EOS's really nice intake manifold with additional injector ports, to the numerous sandwich plates, etc. The biggest thing is deciding on how the PI will be controlled and that's where I really shied away from it.

There are plenty of people using PI using old school tech like the AIC split-second controllers with success but they just feel too risky to me. Like TopJimmy noted, there's just no connection between these and the DME so if something goes awry there's no safety measure. When we're pushing the limits of these motors, like a lot of us are, it just didn't feel like the best route for me.

I'd shoot Ian over at Bend Calibration a note asking him the same. I don't want to totally butcher or pass incorrect info but some of the tuning platforms - MHD and ECUtek (I don't think i'm missing one?) have the ability to interface with another device that can work in parallel with the DME - Motiv Reflex+. It also needs to be tuned, but since it works in parallel with the DME is can incorporate external sensor data to provide the safety measures that I think you really need to run PI.

Other cool thing about Motiv Reflex is that it can act as your ethanol sensor, among other things, possibly saving some money there.

[chrison600]

Originally Posted by heitzke

...there's just no connection between these and the DME...but some of the tuning platforms...have the ability to interface with another device that can work in parallel with the DME - Motiv Reflex+...

Thank you for this. Now I understand the value of the Motiv interconnectivity. That was unclear to me until now. I'm in contact with Bend and they are extremely helpful and kind.

[papasmurf_m3]

Not knocking Di only setup. If Bend says its legit it is.

I wouldn't give yourself any false sense of security because you're only on DI and high lift kit vs DI running safer pressures and Port Injection.

In racing when something "goes". No electronic nanny in the world will save you.

If you're doing a pull and a DI decides to peace out or your port injectors decides the same. You're still going to be in trouble and probably have major engine damage.

I think the port failing but still having DI spraying during a pull might be marginally safer than your only source of fuel in that cyl deciding to have issues. Thats a faster thermal failure one would assume.

Just food for thought. If anything I believe these high quality Injector Dynamics port injectors are just more robust than these stock plastic bodied di injectors. Obvious the setup works great too. I'm just not convinced it's going to be any more reliable than port injectors in racing/hard driving situations is all.

Just my 2 cents.

Merry Christmas!!

[chewbakam4]

More parts more problems. I’ll never do secondary PI as its just so much more to worry about and maintain over time. Also, an injector fully dead electrically is what you’re safe with on this integration. You’re not safe from a faulty (not flowing to spec), or overflowing or stuck open injector. Its a very false sense of safety so to me all of it is whatever. I’m staying DI with Dorch lift kit and EU5s. Way more power than I can ever put down effectively.

[slaughter.mode]

What is your HP goal? You mentioned daily so I'm guessing you want something reliable and smooth so the Lift Kit + LPFP + EU5s will give you all of that with a easy 650whp target. Nostrom/Precision Raceworks Stage 2s can do 800+ without sweating. PI always sounded like more parts, more problems to me but with my recent tragedy I'm thinking having supplemental fueling might've been something that could've saved my engine. Either way you choose, make sure you check them every so often!

Personally 700whp was my happy place for a daily (did on my F80 and F82) but that's also because I'm a stubborn 20" wheel fanatic and that leaves me with 305x30x20 Michelin PS4S tires in the back. They're great but not when you have that much sauce. So traction/grip is another thing to consider. You can have all the power without being able to put it down or worse sliding off the road and the fun's over. I never used supplemental PI, just EU5s.

[victorboost]

Originally Posted by chewbakam4

More parts more problems. I’ll never do secondary PI as its just so much more to worry about and maintain over time. Also, an injector fully dead electrically is what you’re safe with on this integration. You’re not safe from a faulty (not flowing to spec), or overflowing or stuck open injector. Its a very false sense of safety so to me all of it is whatever. I’m staying DI with Dorch lift kit and EU5s. Way more power than I can ever put down effectively.

How much are you able to put down with EU5 + HPFP?