Track forum general chit chat

[SYT_Shadow]

Over on the E9X forum we have an ongoing conversation where people bring up random track related things.

I'll start the thread here, hopefully you all participate!


We have an F80 CS for the track. It's surprisingly capable out of the box!

Just in case though we've added a PFC front BBK and the AP RadiCal rear bbk, plus MCS 2WNR suspension and Ergo seats together with a BK harness bar and BK seat mounting hardware with 6 points

So far we've struggled setting the suspension up properly and haven't been able to match the times we've set with stock suspension. We're working on it though!

[gman444]

Was out on track this weekend, let the instructor drive my car for the first session (I put it in mdm). There was some lift off oversteer and he over corrected it right off the track, destroying my front lip in the process. Drove the rest of the weekend with traction on and I still wasn't able to get my confidence back in the car after that. It was a terrible feeling.

Can't wait till next season though to get back on track, hopefully learn more and get my confidence back!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by gman444

Was out on track this weekend, let the instructor drive my car for the first session (I put it in mdm). There was some lift off oversteer and he over corrected it right off the track, destroying my front lip in the process. Drove the rest of the weekend with traction on and I still wasn't able to get my confidence back in the car after that. It was a terrible feeling.

Can't wait till next season though to get back on track, hopefully learn more and get my confidence back!

That sounds terrible!!!! This is why I don't drive student's cars, or if I do it's at 5/10ths. If I'm going to take them for a joyride it's in my car!

Did the organization do anything about that?

[jmg]

Originally Posted by gman444

Was out on track this weekend, let the instructor drive my car for the first session (I put it in mdm). There was some lift off oversteer and he over corrected it right off the track, destroying my front lip in the process. Drove the rest of the weekend with traction on and I still wasn't able to get my confidence back in the car after that. It was a terrible feeling.

Can't wait till next season though to get back on track, hopefully learn more and get my confidence back!

OUCH! Is the instructor going to pay for it? I can handle damaging my own car through my own actions, but I would be more than annoyed if it was someone else, especially an instructor who's supposed to be experienced.

I would say the best thing for getting that confidence back is inducing oversteer in a controlled space, like a skid pad or even an autocross with DCT off. Feel how the car behaves when it's upset, get comfortable with going sideways... several successful corrections without snap oversteer and you'll get your dancing legs back. I know circuit drivers generally look down upon parking lot racing/solos but it's a good place to practice with low risk.

[F80Speed77]

Originally Posted by jmg

I know circuit drivers generally look down upon parking lot racing/solos but it's a good place to practice with low risk.

This x100!!! I've been learning to drive the car essentially in a constant state of rear slip with the Continental ECS at autox lol. Can't wait to be done with these things...

[NYG]

It breaks my heart how hard I try to make do with the stock iron rotors and calipers... it's impossible. The stock brake system is complete and utter garbage. I've seen better brakes in Civics and WRXs.

/vent

[F80Speed77]

I don't think they are total garbage and I want to give a set of true two piece rotors a try (at least upfront) before I go on to the 6 piston goodness (really pissed I missed out on that StopTech deal BW had.)

I'd put the DS2500 + Stock Iron Rotors on the F80 about equal to the GiroDisc Front Rotor + Raybestos ST45 setup I had on my STI (Maybe slight nod to the STI here). I'm thinking DS1-11 + Two piece will be better than the setup on the STI which was pretty dang good.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by NYG

It breaks my heart how hard I try to make do with the stock iron rotors and calipers... it's impossible. The stock brake system is complete and utter garbage. I've seen better brakes in Civics and WRXs.

/vent

Maybe you are overbraking .

I've been running the stock brakes on my two M4s over the past 5-years with RSL29 pads (not the best out there) and stock fluid, and I certainly would not call them "complete garbage"...

Are you running with DSC or MDM on ? That could make a huge difference.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gman444

Was out on track this weekend, let the instructor drive my car for the first session (I put it in mdm). There was some lift off oversteer and he over corrected it right off the track, destroying my front lip in the process. Drove the rest of the weekend with traction on and I still wasn't able to get my confidence back in the car after that. It was a terrible feeling.

Can't wait till next season though to get back on track, hopefully learn more and get my confidence back!

Wow, how irresponsible from your instructor. His job is to build your confidence and make you faster, not try to impress you.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by NYG

It breaks my heart how hard I try to make do with the stock iron rotors and calipers... it's impossible. The stock brake system is complete and utter garbage. I've seen better brakes in Civics and WRXs.

/vent

In all fairness to the stock system, the delta of speed the CS generates in a fast track is massive. No STi is doing that consistently.

In the end 991 GT3 RSs end up with AP Radicals or PFC setups... or at the very least different rotors. In that context, if you're trying to achieve the same times with a car that's 400lb heavier then you will need to do something about the brakes.



A Focus RS I instructed a few weeks ago at VIR ended up lighting his dust boots on fire... and the car has a big fancy BREMBO front caliper. You can also set the F8X boots on fire if you try enough, but the Focus RS was not in the realm of a CS speed-wise

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

That sounds terrible!!!! This is why I don't drive student's cars, or if I do it's at 5/10ths. If I'm going to take them for a joyride it's in my car!

Did the organization do anything about that?

Yikes! Makes you wonder what his normal trackday vehicle is then? If it's a low hp or low torque car I probably wouldn't offer up a car to that person.

Personally I have no problem driving a student's or fellow instructors car, but I wouldn't be driving it more than 8/10ths for that exact reason (just drove a friend's C7Z06 @ MidO without issue). There's just so many mediocre instructors out there that "instructor" doesn't mean a lot whole unless you're confident in their ability.

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Maybe you are overbraking .

I've been running the stock brakes on my two M4s over the past 5-years with RSL29 pads (not the best out there) and stock fluid, and I certainly would not call them "complete garbage"...

Are you running with DSC or MDM on ? That could make a huge difference.

He is over-braking, or at the very least over-working a system that is known to not to handle repeated or a sustained workload on track. I'm gonna continue to bust his balls until he starts listening

Either do a few "flyer" laps followed by a few slower laps OR just don't brake 100% all the time.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

He is over-braking, or at the very least over-working a system that is known to not to handle repeated or a sustained workload on track. I'm gonna continue to bust his balls until he starts listening

Either do a few "flyer" laps followed by a few slower laps OR just don't brake 100% all the time.

It really depends on how fast someone is driving and how hard they are braking. There is a LOT of time to be had in braking zones for sure.
Overbraking is a thing for sure, but before saying someone is overbraking for sure I'd want to see their times.

A brake system that works well at XX lap time does not necessarily work well at YY lap time.

Doing some fast and some slow laps doesn't work that well in HPDE. Say your fastest lap is 2:20 but your pace is 2:15. You find another car whose fastest lap is 2:22 but has a pace of 2:17.
Once you pass the slower car you will want to keep pushing hard, as every time you hit traffic the other driver will catch up to you.

[gman444]

Originally Posted by jmg

OUCH! Is the instructor going to pay for it? I can handle damaging my own car through my own actions, but I would be more than annoyed if it was someone else, especially an instructor who's supposed to be experienced.

I would say the best thing for getting that confidence back is inducing oversteer in a controlled space, like a skid pad or even an autocross with DCT off. Feel how the car behaves when it's upset, get comfortable with going sideways... several successful corrections without snap oversteer and you'll get your dancing legs back. I know circuit drivers generally look down upon parking lot racing/solos but it's a good place to practice with low risk.

He'll be paying for a new lip. Drove 6 hours to be there so honestly I was just happy that the rest of the car was okay and it didn't end my weekend. Ya will have to wait till next season for that. Just gotta wait now to get some snow out here so I can pop the winter tires on and take the car out...for science

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Wow, how irresponsible from your instructor. His job is to build your confidence and make you faster, not try to impress you.

Don't think he was trying to impress me. I guess he just did not expect the car to behave the way it did (he's used to lighter fwd cars). Weird thing is, even in the passenger seat, I remember feeling the back end come around and thinking why he still hasn't corrected it yet. When he did catch it, his hands were all over the place too.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by gman444

He'll be paying for a new lip. Drove 6 hours to be there so honestly I was just happy that the rest of the car was okay and it didn't end my weekend. Ya will have to wait till next season for that. Just gotta wait now to get some snow out here so I can pop the winter tires on and take the car out...for science



Don't think he was trying to impress me. I guess he just did not expect the car to behave the way it did (he's used to lighter fwd cars). Weird thing is, even in the passenger seat, I remember feeling the back end come around and thinking why he still hasn't corrected it yet. When he did catch it, his hands were all over the place too.

For sure over winter you can do many science experiments!! It's so much fun to drive M3s in winter, I love it.

Despite the internet videos of people jumping curbs and doing other stupid things, the F8X M3 is a pussy cat just like the previous generations.

Organizations usually try to pair students with instructors that have similar cars. A FWD car is so different to drive vs RWD... what a shame.

I hope your car is made whole again soon

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by gman444

Was out on track this weekend, let the instructor drive my car for the first session (I put it in mdm). There was some lift off oversteer and he over corrected it right off the track, destroying my front lip in the process. Drove the rest of the weekend with traction on and I still wasn't able to get my confidence back in the car after that. It was a terrible feeling.

Can't wait till next season though to get back on track, hopefully learn more and get my confidence back!

Not good

Couple of thoughts on that from my perspective:

1) Odd that the "instructor" was driving in MDM?

2) Obviously this is an example where MDM doesn't save you

3) Although an M3/4 is not the easiest first track car to learn on (I'd prefer a Miata of E30/36 for a new track driver) , I still think the best time to turn off all the nannies is when you're first starting out in your track hobby. Go slow, but you need to get comfortable with the car sliding and correcting it at some point. Be selective on which areas of the track you push to the car to sliding. For example, go 7/10ths on that high speed sweeper, but push it 10/10ths in a lower speed carousel with lots of run off.

4) You ARE going to have some offs as you're learning and beyond. You have to accept it. You just hope it doesn't cause too much damage (or be caused by an instructor driving your car, lol!).

4) I only let really good drivers drive my cars, not instructors. They aren't always synonymous.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

3) Although an M3/4 is not the easiest first track car to learn on (I'd prefer a Miata of E30/36 for a new track driver) , I still think the best time to turn off all the nannies is when you're first starting out in your track hobby. Go slow, but you need to get comfortable with the car sliding and correcting it at some point. Be selective on which areas of the track you push to the car to sliding. For example, go 7/10ths on that high speed sweeper, but push it 10/10ths in a lower speed carousel with lots of run off.

I totally agree. There is obviously some risk but at the beginning you are MUCH slower than after 20 days, so less risk overall IMO.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by gman444

He'll be paying for a new lip. Drove 6 hours to be there so honestly I was just happy that the rest of the car was okay and it didn't end my weekend. Ya will have to wait till next season for that. Just gotta wait now to get some snow out here so I can pop the winter tires on and take the car out...for science

Don't think he was trying to impress me. I guess he just did not expect the car to behave the way it did (he's used to lighter fwd cars). Weird thing is, even in the passenger seat, I remember feeling the back end come around and thinking why he still hasn't corrected it yet. When he did catch it, his hands were all over the place too.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

For sure over winter you can do many science experiments!! It's so much fun to drive M3s in winter, I love it.

Despite the internet videos of people jumping curbs and doing other stupid things, the F8X M3 is a pussy cat just like the previous generations.

Organizations usually try to pair students with instructors that have similar cars. A FWD car is so different to drive vs RWD... what a shame.

I hope your car is made whole again soon

I haven't driven a FWD daily or close to the limit in almost 20 years. Is oversteer recovery almost the same? Counter steer and lift throttle? Or maybe FWD is more throttle since the weight is in front and throttle will shift the weight to the rears? That's what I remember doing in the rain in my MK2 GTI anyway.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Maybe you are overbraking .

I've been running the stock brakes on my two M4s over the past 5-years with RSL29 pads (not the best out there) and stock fluid, and I certainly would not call them "complete garbage"...

Are you running with DSC or MDM on ? That could make a huge difference.

I run DSC OFF and I'm pre-abs before corners. It's how I was taught originally by my NASA instructor.

I'm not a pro by any means so the question of whether or not I can improve my technique to reduce brake heat is an easy answer: absolutely.

The issue here is that I track with my buddies and we all analyze each other's braking/corner speeds/line. It's a C7 Grandsport, (2) 1LE Camaros with ZL1 brakes and a Shelby GT350 with a track pack. I'm the only one struggling with my brakes and I'm braking earlier and earlier throughout the day because I lose consistency. I'm also going a lot faster in the front and back straight than they are.

Take a look at my most recent Glen lap:

See how early I'm braking? This is day 2, last session. If I brake any later I don't know if the car will even stop before the run off.

I definitely need to improve my technique and I'm working on it but these brakes are sub-par. At the very least, the lack of brake cooling is a major issue that is well known on the F80.

I'm open to criticism, definitely not sensitive here.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

He is over-braking, or at the very least over-working a system that is known to not to handle repeated or a sustained workload on track. I'm gonna continue to bust his balls until he starts listening

Either do a few "flyer" laps followed by a few slower laps OR just don't brake 100% all the time.

Bust my balls as much as you want! I don't mind.

I need to brake 100% all the time.

My goal is to end up racing pro some day. Only started back in April.

[gman444]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

Not good

Couple of thoughts on that from my perspective:

1) Odd that the "instructor" was driving in MDM?

2) Obviously this is an example where MDM doesn't save you

That's my mistake. I left the car in MDM when I gave it to him . He wasn't familiar with the car or any of the modes. Although I generally like to drive the car in MDM. Not sure how big of difference this makes but I have the GTS MDM coded in.

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

3) Although an M3/4 is not the easiest first track car to learn on (I'd prefer a Miata of E30/36 for a new track driver) , I still think the best time to turn off all the nannies is when you're first starting out in your track hobby. Go slow, but you need to get comfortable with the car sliding and correcting it at some point. Be selective on which areas of the track you push to the car to sliding. For example, go 7/10ths on that high speed sweeper, but push it 10/10ths in a lower speed carousel with lots of run off.

4) You ARE going to have some offs as you're learning and beyond. You have to accept it. You just hope it doesn't cause too much damage (or be caused by an instructor driving your car, lol!).

You're right, I think I just need to take it slow and just practice driving the car with all the nannies off. It'll be nice to see what the car does when its at its "limit". I drove my last event in MDM and I absolutely loved how controllable the car was. The car would kick out a little bit once in a while but it was really easy to reel it back in and it never felt scary (again, not sure how much of this was MDM saving my butt lol)

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by NYG

I run DSC OFF and I'm pre-abs before corners. It's how I was taught originally by my NASA instructor.

I'm not a pro by any means so the question of whether or not I can improve my technique to reduce brake heat is an easy answer: absolutely.

The issue here is that I track with my buddies and we all analyze each other's braking/corner speeds/line. It's a C7 Grandsport, (2) 1LE Camaros with ZL1 brakes and a Shelby GT350 with a track pack. I'm the only one struggling with my brakes and I'm braking earlier and earlier throughout the day because I lose consistency. I'm also going a lot faster in the front and back straight than they are.

Take a look at my most recent Glen lap:

See how early I'm braking? This is day 2, last session. If I brake any later I don't know if the car will even stop before the run off.

I definitely need to improve my technique and I'm working on it but these brakes are sub-par. At the very least, the lack of brake cooling is a major issue that is well known on the F80.

I'm open to criticism, definitely not sensitive here.

Are you using all of the right side curb on entry into the chicane? It's hard to tell from the video, but you should be off the brakes, turning in early, and all over the first curb (i think you over broke by 5mph?).

It looks like your Vmax is nice and high. Obviously if your Vmax is higher than those cars (they already have better braking systems) you're gonna have to brake earlier!

Originally Posted by NYG

Bust my balls as much as you want! I don't mind.

I need to brake 100% all the time.

My goal is to end up racing pro some day. Only started back in April.

When you say 100% brake, you mean you're putting all your force on the pedal or just threshold braking?

Racing is on my bucket list too, will probably do the BMWCCA race school this Winter/Spring.

Originally Posted by gman444

That's my mistake. I left the car in MDM when I gave it to him . He wasn't familiar with the car or any of the modes. Although I generally like to drive the car in MDM. Not sure how big of difference this makes but I have the GTS MDM coded in.

You're right, I think I just need to take it slow and just practice driving the car with all the nannies off. It'll be nice to see what the car does when its at its "limit". I drove my last event in MDM and I absolutely loved how controllable the car was. The car would kick out a little bit once in a while but it was really easy to reel it back in and it never felt scary (again, not sure how much of this was MDM saving my butt lol)

GTS MDM is NG. If you can you should get your car updated to the latest I-Step by the dealer. It allows more yaw than the base* or GTS setup (unless you're car is 2018 or newer) and wheel spin. It ain't the long term answer but it's much better for building up your confidence.

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

It really depends on how fast someone is driving and how hard they are braking. There is a LOT of time to be had in braking zones for sure.
Overbraking is a thing for sure, but before saying someone is overbraking for sure I'd want to see their times.

A brake system that works well at XX lap time does not necessarily work well at YY lap time.

Doing some fast and some slow laps doesn't work that well in HPDE. Say your fastest lap is 2:20 but your pace is 2:15. You find another car whose fastest lap is 2:22 but has a pace of 2:17.
Once you pass the slower car you will want to keep pushing hard, as every time you hit traffic the other driver will catch up to you.

I've pretty much done slow/fast for 80% of the sessions over the last 4 years without too many issues. An overwhelming majority of the time I do it because of traffic. If I know I'm gonna catch a slower car who gives lazy passes I will let up a bit on that lap until I know I can get a clean lap. That way I'm not keeping that extra bit of heat in the consumables for no reason. It's easier to execute with some organizations (Chin) vs others (PCA).