Track forum general chit chat

[NYG]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

Are you using all of the right side curb on entry into the chicane? It's hard to tell from the video, but you should be off the brakes, turning in early, and all over the first curb (i think you over broke by 5mph?).

It looks like your Vmax is nice and high. Obviously if your Vmax is higher than those cars (they already have better braking systems) you're gonna have to brake earlier!



When you say 100% brake, you mean you're putting all your force on the pedal or just threshold braking?

Racing is on my bucket list too, will probably do the BMWCCA race school this Winter/Spring.

I could probably use a bit more. The curbing was a little slippery from rain.

Threshold braking. I try to be smooth with the application of pressure, I kind of wish I could see my brake force on my track data.

Even then, you think 5 mph of overbrake is enough to cause such a catastrophic difference in my brakes? Even if it's consecutively? Most of the thermal energy is being pumped dropping me from 152 mph.

I may join you just so I can boil your fluid just by being around you.

[F80Speed77]

Originally Posted by jmg

I haven't driven a FWD daily or close to the limit in almost 20 years. Is oversteer recovery almost the same? Counter steer and lift throttle? Or maybe FWD is more throttle since the weight is in front and throttle will shift the weight to the rears? That's what I remember doing in the rain in my MK2 GTI anyway.

FWD oversteer recovery is just give it more gas, if you have oversteer with FWD it's probably on entry and was caused from lifting.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jmg

I haven't driven a FWD daily or close to the limit in almost 20 years. Is oversteer recovery almost the same? Counter steer and lift throttle? Or maybe FWD is more throttle since the weight is in front and throttle will shift the weight to the rears? That's what I remember doing in the rain in my MK2 GTI anyway.

No, oversteer recovery on a FWD is vastly different than a RWD.

On a FWD there’s only one way to recover regardless of the oversteer type and it’s quite simple, countersteer and throttle to the floor.

On a RWD, it requires judgment and skill. On trailing throttle oversteer, you need to contersteer while adding a little bit of throttle. On power oversteer, you need to countersteer while slightly lifting off the throttle. Any inappropriate throttle adjustment will make the situation worse.

[F80Speed77]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

In all fairness to the stock system, the delta of speed the CS generates in a fast track is massive. No STi is doing that consistently.

In the end 991 GT3 RSs end up with AP Radicals or PFC setups... or at the very least different rotors. In that context, if you're trying to achieve the same times with a car that's 400lb heavier then you will need to do something about the brakes.

I was in a 991 GT3RS w PCCB with Andy Pilgrim at AMP, those brakes on that car are absolutely incredible. I can't picture needing anything better than that for HPDE.

Also should have mentioned my STI made similar HP to an F80 and was 200lbs lighter.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by F80Speed77

I was in a 991 GT3RS w PCCB with Andy Pilgrim at AMP, those brakes on that car are absolutely incredible. I can't picture needing anything better than that for HPDE.

Also should have mentioned my STI made similar HP to an F80 and was 200lbs lighter.

And yet walk around the paddock at a HPDE and the Red group (fastest) 991 GT3 RS are rarely running stock systems.

Don't ask me why because I don't understand it.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

It's easier to execute with some organizations (Chin) vs others (PCA).

Sometimes a butthurt 991 GT3 RS with pirellis or hoosiers will get really close to you when you encounter traffic after passing them... and then come tell you that you were holding them up despite video showing that whenever there isn't traffic they become a tiny dot

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by NYG

Most of the thermal energy is being pumped dropping me from 152 mph.

I may join you just so I can boil your fluid just by being around you.

That's the thing, the amount of speed you're shaving off in one of these is massive. Too much heat

[NYG]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Sometimes a butthurt 991 GT3 RS with pirellis or hoosiers will get really close to you when you encounter traffic after passing them... and then come tell you that you were holding them up despite video showing that whenever there isn't traffic they become a tiny dot

[gman444]

Originally Posted by F80Speed77

I was in a 991 GT3RS w PCCB with Andy Pilgrim at AMP, those brakes on that car are absolutely incredible. I can't picture needing anything better than that for HPDE.

Also should have mentioned my STI made similar HP to an F80 and was 200lbs lighter.

I think Porsche themselves recommend getting the steel brakes if you plan on doing any track days with the GT cars just because of consumable costs.

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by NYG

I could probably use a bit more. The curbing was a little slippery from rain.

Threshold braking. I try to be smooth with the application of pressure, I kind of wish I could see my brake force on my track data.

Even then, you think 5 mph of overbrake is enough to cause such a catastrophic difference in my brakes? Even if it's consecutively? Most of the thermal energy is being pumped dropping me from 152 mph.

I may join you just so I can boil your fluid just by being around you.

I will defer to Shadow or Speed77 as they're more experienced and also probably have more seat time at Watkins...but I've found that the brakes NEVER really cool down at Watkins. So yes a few mph here and there probably make a difference at the macro level. The chicane in-particular is faster than most ppl think or are willing to try.

Sounds like you should let me try out your CS sometime! I mean whats the worse that can happen, you lose a front splitter?! too soon?

..or you could try chasing Shadow around sometime.

[gman444]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

Sounds like you should let me try out your CS sometime! I mean whats the worse that can happen, you lose a front splitter?! too soon?

LOL LOVE IT

[Buckeye///M]

I don’t think I have ever driven at an event where instructors were allowed to drive students cars. Most organizers specifically state not to. I assume it is for liability purposes since most people don’t have any say on who their instructor is and if an instructor were to really f-up your car (blown engine or massive off) then the student would want some accountability. A damaged splitter is a cheap lesson for both the student and instructor and I am sure he was relieved that is all the damage he caused.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

I will defer to Shadow or Speed77 as they're more experienced and also probably have more seat time at Watkins...but I've found that the brakes NEVER really cool down at Watkins. So yes a few mph here and there probably make a difference at the macro level. The chicane in-particular is faster than most ppl think or are willing to try.

Sounds like you should let me try out your CS sometime! I mean whats the worse that can happen, you lose a front splitter?! too soon?

..or you could try chasing Shadow around sometime.

SYT_Shadow is my mentor... I force him to bless me with his knowledge on the reg. Luckily he's an awesome dude and always helps.

Deal, but only if I can take your ZCP for a session. I'll try to return it with some tread left.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

No, oversteer recovery on a FWD is vastly different than a RWD.

On a FWD there’s only one way to recover regardless of the oversteer type and it’s quite simple, countersteer and throttle to the floor.

On a RWD, it requires judgment and skill. On lift throttle oversteer, you need to contersteer while adding a little bit of throttle. On power oversteer, you need to countersteer while slightly lifting off the throttle. Any inappropriate throttle adjustment will make the situation worse.

That's what I thought. Poor instructor did the exact opposite of what he was supposed to do.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by gman444

I think Porsche themselves recommend getting the steel brakes if you plan on doing any track days with the GT cars just because of consumable costs.

People have good results with CCBs if they drive a few track days a year and are not hard on brakes.

If you are trying to crush your enemies and see them flee before you, well, the rotor last less than a good BBK setup (PFC or AP)

So if that describes you it's not really a matter of cost. You would have to be nuts to spend ~10k on rotors every few days for no advantage vs good BBKs

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by NYG

I run DSC OFF and I'm pre-abs before corners. It's how I was taught originally by my NASA instructor.

Take a look at my most recent Glen lap:

.

Hi, I got coaching from NASA HPDE also, and they seem to teach that you should hammer down in a straight line, and get on throttle early (that's the bad habit I picked up from HPDE my F80, anyway).

I saw in your vid that you had a low % of throttle before apex in almost all corners, so I think you are doing this same thing also.

I think that is taught to minimize risk from new people

I've since gotten feedback that the proper approach is to max out entry speed by having a short heavy straight line brake, followed by a trailing brake and then pick up the throttle after apex. The idea being to roll as much speed through the corner.

Check out https://nasaspeed.news/columns/drive...he-right-time/ where this is articulated more effectively.

I'm working on this too!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

I will defer to Shadow or Speed77 as they're more experienced and also probably have more seat time at Watkins...but I've found that the brakes NEVER really cool down at Watkins. So yes a few mph here and there probably make a difference at the macro level. The chicane in-particular is faster than most ppl think or are willing to try.

Sounds like you should let me try out your CS sometime! I mean whats the worse that can happen, you lose a front splitter?! too soon?

..or you could try chasing Shadow around sometime.

I can't really speak about brake fade or brake management.

I use the best brakes known to mankind and they are completely overdimensioned to even the most cretinous attempts at overheating them.
My brother will pull in from a 30 minute session with BFG R1 tires and I'll go right out for another 30 minute session... the brakes never change their behavior, they just shrug off whatever we throw at them.
Even one particularly cretinous event when we managed to deplete a 28mm race pad in a single day, the behavior still never changed.

They are so ridiculous I spent two months with my brother doing 3D printing of a brake adapter to be able to run the brakes that came from the E9X on the CS. After many many tries we finally got them right.
The CS went to the track its first weekend with those brakes... I am fine to use street tires, or stock suspension, etc, but the brakes are essential if you want to do what I'm trying to do.

My trust in the brakes is so large that if the G80 cannot use these for whatever reason it is likely I do not end up with one.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I can't really speak about brake fade or brake management.

I use the best brakes known to mankind and they are completely overdimensioned to even the most cretinous attempts at overheating them.
My brother will pull in from a 30 minute session with BFG R1 tires and I'll go right out for another 30 minute session... the brakes never change their behavior, they just shrug off whatever we throw at them.
Even one particularly cretinous event when we managed to deplete a 28mm race pad in a single day, the behavior still never changed.

They are so ridiculous I spent two months with my brother doing 3D printing of a brake adapter to be able to run my E9X brakes on the CS. After many many tries we finally got them right.
The CS went to the track its first weekend with those brakes... I am fine to use street tires, or stock suspension, etc, but the brakes are essential if you want to do what I'm trying to do.

My trust in the brakes is so large that if the G80 cannot use these for whatever reason it is likely I do not end up with one.

Please tell us more about these brakes.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Hi, I got coaching from NASA HPDE also, and they seem to teach that you should hammer down in a straight line, and get on throttle early (that's the bad habit I picked up from HPDE my F80, anyway).

I saw in your vid that you had a low % of throttle before apex in almost all corners, so I think you are doing this same thing also.

I think that is taught to minimize risk from new people

I've since gotten feedback that the proper approach is to max out entry speed by having a short heavy straight line brake, followed by a trailing brake and then pick up the throttle after apex. The idea being to roll as much speed through the corner.

Check out https://nasaspeed.news/columns/drive...he-right-time/ where this is articulated more effectively.

I'm working on this too!

Thank you for this! I'll look into this after work! Appreciate you watching and giving advice.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by jmg

Please tell us more about these brakes.

LOL, I think I've spoken too much already!

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by NYG

Thank you for this! I'll look into this after work! Appreciate you watching and giving advice.

I saw you mentioning “My goal is to end up racing pro some day.”

I think Maynard gave some really good advice about using spec racer (Miata, e30, e36).

what’s your sim racing setup as well?

If you are just doing hpde non competitively, without a data for a basic sensor like brake pressure, I can’t help but bring up whether your current approach is maximizing the use of your time and resources towards your end goal.

My goal is lower tier than yours, in that I want to qualify for and do well in some grassroots enduros like Thill 25 and I’m working on that by doing SM this year (first year) and some local SCCA regional club level 2hr enduro.

Good luck with your goal and hope we can use this thread to discuss if further.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I saw you mentioning “My goal is to end up racing pro some day.”

I think Maynard gave some really good advice about using spec racer (Miata, e30, e36).

what’s your sim racing setup as well?

If you are just doing hpde non competitively, without a data for a basic sensor like brake pressure, I can’t help but bring up whether your current approach is maximizing the use of your time and resources towards your end goal.

My goal is lower tier than yours, in that I want to qualify for and do well in some grassroots enduros like Thill 25 and I’m working on that by doing SM this year (first year) and some local SCCA regional club level 2hr enduro.

Good luck with your goal and hope we can use this thread to discuss if further.

I keep telling him he needs a SoloDL! And I have one to sell, gud prais, gud prais